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  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I have played since vanilla. I met dozens of people that wouldn't do heroics because the tuning was too high. It had nothing to do with being unable to use action bars. Some people don't play for the challenge over the reward and experience.
    But come on you'd have to agree that heroic/scenario farm + LFR as it is right now can only be discribed as "fun" for an extremely small part of the playerbase. Most people that I know that don't raid are unsubbed right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gniral View Post
    Cata drops were due to excessive difficulty and exclusivity, while the recent drop is due to the game getting increasingly old, to higher competition on the market and to China going to other type of games.
    So after Cata the game suddenly got old. Cata by itself was extremely easy after the first raid tier (with the exception of heroic rag). The subs still kept dropping. Remember that they came up with the annual pass and D3 just to keep people subbed into DS? Arguably the easiest and worst raid (granted not just because of the difficulty and LFR but still) in Cata.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Then you had non heroics. But wait... you want better rewards, but don't want to play better. Why you should get better rewards, if you don't want to play better to get them? Heroics in cata weren't hard. The problem is, that the 5 mans in wotlk were far too easy, so most of the players unlearned to handle the game right.
    Idk why people are so hooked up on the dungeon heroics argument. Blizzard fixed their mistake in the 3/5 department in MoP. They just switched the tagging from normal/heroic to heroic/challenge (notice how there aren't any normals anymore?).

    Also arguably the new heroic scenarios are just as hard as Cata heroics if you tackle them without raid gear.
    Last edited by mmocb100f50513; 2013-06-10 at 03:26 PM.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    But come on you'd have to agree that heroic/scenario farm + LFR as it is right now can only be discribed as "fun" for an extremely small part of the playerbase. Most people that I know that don't raid are unsubbed right now.
    Emphasis on the important bit. Be careful with the confirmation bias. The people you know are unsubbed. Realistically, you have no insight in what the other 8 million people who are still playing are thinking or enjoying.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I have played since vanilla. I met dozens of people that wouldn't do heroics because the tuning was too high. It had nothing to do with being unable to use action bars. Some people don't play for the challenge over the reward and experience. They play flag football with the brows because it's fun, not because they are looking to join the pros.
    Literally 80% of the people I knew in BC were like this. There was this one guild a bit more ambitious than most, they entered shattered halls, wiped in the first trash wave and the trauma was too much for them to attempt it ever again. Every time I invited them for a heroic they didn't dare to accept. The strongest and most powerful guild in knew in BC could not clear Attuman in Kara. I actually joined them once as a replacement for their tank to see what was wrong. It was their healer. A holy paladin who couldn't control her mana properly. Kara was a 10raid. At proper gear levels, with a healer who couldn't perform, they had no chance. But you can't expect a guild to dump a friend simply because she's not good. They continued to bang their head against the wall for a good 6 weeks then gave up.

    I don't think such things are good for WOW in general. Its the casuals, the weak players, the foolish and the incompetent that need help. Ignore them and they reach for the unsub button faster then a speeding Cure March. It is these players that have perhaps been adding to WOW's sub count as accessibility was increased again and again.

    I loved the cata launch heroics. Hard 5man content on an instant group finder is awesome fun. The most fun I've ever had in a 5man was in cata launch. Yet, easier 5mans aren't that bad really, even if they're not my preference. If it makes such a big difference to others, I can take easier ones.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Emphasis on the important bit. Be careful with the confirmation bias. Realistically, you have no insight in what the other 8 million people who are still playing are thinking or enjoying.
    Realistically people can be categorized in a small amount of groups that tend to share the same behavior (with overlapping to other groups). You don't need to argue with 8 million different mindsets about something because they don't exist.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    The theory I subscribe to is that current sub decrease is due to the fact the game is old, and there isn't as many new players joining. Blizzard seems to agree and they are increasing the accessibility and levelling experience in an attempt to mitigate sub loss.
    Stop theorizing. The facts are out there:

    Jeff Kaplan in 2006:A. My biggest hope is that for fans of World of Warcraft, the Burning Crusade will be the only game that’s better than World of Warcraft. Our biggest goal with it is to ensure that there is a lot of content that caters to everyone’s play style. We have a lot of people with a lot of different ways of playing the game, and we want everyone to feel like they’re getting what they need.

    Why does everyone make up these theories to back their own QQ? The developers of wow are not slaves to your whims they think and feel too.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by finskee View Post
    Stop theorizing. The facts are out there:

    Jeff Kaplan in 2006:A. My biggest hope is that for fans of World of Warcraft, the Burning Crusade will be the only game that’s better than World of Warcraft. Our biggest goal with it is to ensure that there is a lot of content that caters to everyone’s play style. We have a lot of people with a lot of different ways of playing the game, and we want everyone to feel like they’re getting what they need.

    Why does everyone make up these theories to back their own QQ? The developers of wow are not slaves to your whims they think and feel too.
    Help me understand. Why is a 2006 quote supposedly able to factually explain why there's a sub drop?

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Realistically people can be categorized in a small amount of groups that tend to share the same behavior (with overlapping to other groups). You don't need to argue with 8 million different mindsets about something because they don't exist.
    You're arguing about nothing. Face it. There may be a few people who log in to play an hour a day. Who cares? Why do you? You think they shouldn't play your game too? You think they are finishing heroic raids? Let them do what they want!

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 08:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    Help me understand. Why is a 2006 quote supposedly able to factually explain why there's a sub drop?
    You fail at comprehension, it has everything to do with why the sub drop has nothing to do with them increasing the accessibility. The proof is right there and in all his interviews, they wanted accessibility from the start.
    Last edited by finskee; 2013-06-10 at 03:31 PM.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by finskee View Post
    You're arguing about nothing. Face it. There may be a few people who log in to play an hour a day. Who cares? Why do you?
    People complaining about the game and overexaggerate things like "playtime" to excuse their behavior of "playing like we want". The result is, the game is getting worse for everyone because of those people.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Realistically people can be categorized in a small amount of groups that tend to share the same behavior (with overlapping to other groups). You don't need to argue with 8 million different mindsets about something because they don't exist.
    True, but if you're a "serious" raider then you are already part of a minority and so the group you're included in will also be very small and so your insight on the playerbase at large is very limited. Most people will not play something they don't enjoy, and LFR seems to be a popular development with the general crowd. From that you can very easily deduce that yes, a lot of people enjoy LFR.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    People complaining about the game and overexaggerate things like "playtime" to excuse their behavior of "playing like we want". The result is, the game is getting worse for everyone because of those people.
    The game is not getting worse for me. You're generalizing, and two posts ago you said that wasn't a good idea. Besides, look at tigole's quote again, does he not say you should play the game how you want and still have fun?

    "We have a lot of people with a lot of different ways of playing the game, and we want everyone to feel like they’re getting what they need."
    Last edited by finskee; 2013-06-10 at 03:37 PM.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    People complaining about the game and overexaggerate things like "playtime" to excuse their behavior of "playing like we want". The result is, the game is getting worse for everyone because of those people.
    Or it's getting better. We just need to bring back some of the convenience and we will be perfect. Let heirlooms go up to 90. Tome of Flying like WOTLK that can be sent to alts for flying in Pandaria, etc...

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Or it's getting better. We just need to bring back some of the convenience and we will be perfect. Let heirlooms go up to 90. Tome of Flying like WOTLK that can be sent to alts for flying in Pandaria, etc...
    I would have no problems with that.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Have you ever heard of the concept of difficulty ? Not everybody can do anything, no matter how much they train.
    Are you suggesting WoW is too hard? Thats worse than the 'i dont have time to raid so i sit in queue for 6 hours' argument. The game isnt too hard, people just dont like to admit they need to get better and try.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Emphasis on the important bit. Be careful with the confirmation bias. The people you know are unsubbed. Realistically, you have no insight in what the other 8 million people who are still playing are thinking or enjoying.
    Thanks captain obvious. But there is no unbiased data on this now is there?

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Brodeo View Post
    Are you suggesting WoW is too hard?
    WoW has components of many different levels of difficulty, so "WoW is too hard" is poorly defined.

    At the present, it is a demonstrable fact that organized (beyond LFR) raiding is too hard (either for them to do, or to want to do) for the vast majority of players. The response to that fact, confirmed by the actions of the devs, is to add flex mode raids between LFR and normal.

    The game isnt too hard, people just dont like to admit they need to get better and try.
    I think people would readily admit that if they (and their friends) were better, and if they tried more, they could get farther.

    But those people would also say they don't need to do that. If they needed to do that, they'd be doing it. Obviously, they feel no "need".

    What you are claiming is that you think they should fee that need. But that is silly; who are you to define what they should want?
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-06-10 at 03:42 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  16. #396
    Pit Lord finskee's Avatar
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    In a game where everyone can complete anything (like most mmo's) the best player is the one who completes it the fastest, thats how you measure skill. That's how it is in so many games. Think about it. How fast can you finish heroic TOT? THAT IS THE QUESTION!

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by finskee View Post
    In a game where everyone can complete anything (like most mmo's) the best player is the one who completes it the fastest, thats how you measure skill. That's how it is in so many games. Think about it. How fast can you finish heroic TOT? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
    Your personal skill can be over NINETHOUSAND if your raid sucks.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    Thanks captain obvious. But there is no unbiased data on this now is there?
    There isn't. Which is why there is no argument to be made on either side.

    The data we do have is that most people don't raid seriously, and that a lot of people have been doing LFR. Given that as a rule most players don't do things they don't enjoy, then we can safely assume LFR is well-liked by more than the tiny minority Thyr was talking about in the original post I quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Your personal skill can be over NINETHOUSAND if your raid sucks.
    Get a better raid, hippy.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  19. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    Literally 80% of the people I knew in BC were like this. There was this one guild a bit more ambitious than most, they entered shattered halls, wiped in the first trash wave and the trauma was too much for them to attempt it ever again. Every time I invited them for a heroic they didn't dare to accept. The strongest and most powerful guild in knew in BC could not clear Attuman in Kara. I actually joined them once as a replacement for their tank to see what was wrong. It was their healer. A holy paladin who couldn't control her mana properly. Kara was a 10raid. At proper gear levels, with a healer who couldn't perform, they had no chance. But you can't expect a guild to dump a friend simply because she's not good. They continued to bang their head against the wall for a good 6 weeks then gave up.
    But there are others ways than LFR to give guilds a smoother ride. They first came up with the token system which evolved into the VP system and with MoP they even introduced upgradable gear. (These systems effectively replaced the over time nerfs we have seen in ICC and DS.)

    I'm sure nowadays they could have outgreared and cleared it in less than 6 weeks. And if nobody is willing to help said holy pally to actually play better (reading a guide takes like 10mins) then it's the players fault and not blizzards.

    The main problem most guilds have with normals nowadays is that they don't clear previous content and jump right into the latest raid. Did people expect to kill T5 before T4 in BC? No they didn't. I think statistic prove that most guilds that have fully cleared (and farmed) t14 have no problem with normal horridon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    The data we do have is that most people don't raid seriously, and that a lot of people have been doing LFR. Given that as a rule most players don't do things they don't enjoy, then we can safely assume LFR is well-liked by more than the tiny minority Thyr was talking about in the original post I quoted.
    Most MMO players will take the effective path to gear and not the 'like' path.

    If you gave people the exclusive choice:
    - Killing equal hp target dummies for ilvl503 gear.
    - Do LFR for ilvl502 gear.

    Then guess what. They would run LFR once to see the content and then go and kill the dummy. Would you then still argue that the participants of "awesome target dummy raid" preceive their actions as 'fun'?
    Last edited by mmocb100f50513; 2013-06-10 at 03:57 PM.

  20. #400
    Pit Lord finskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Your personal skill can be over NINETHOUSAND if your raid sucks.
    Well that's a good point, and in wow rng plays a big part. It's why in the end if someone doesn't complete all the goals or doesn't join a guild that we shouldn't exclude them from finishing the content imho. I think the developers believe that too, there is exclusive rewards, but not exclusive content.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 08:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    Most MMO players will take the effective path to gear and not the 'like' path.

    If you gave people the exclusive choice:
    - Killing equal hp target dummies for ilvl503 gear.
    - Do LFR for ilvl502 gear.

    Then guess what. They would run LFR once to see the content and then go and kill the dummy. Would you then still argue that the participants of "awesome target dummy raid" preceive their actions as 'fun'?
    No way I'd do the LFR its far superior to dummy practice. Not sure what planet you're on but I've been grinding gear in dungeons and raids for 6 years and LFR isn't as mindnumbing as you all make it out to be. Certainly not as mind numbing as wiping 200 times on heroic lei shen. If LFR is so difficult to deal with then by all means target dummies can be your thing.
    Last edited by finskee; 2013-06-10 at 04:03 PM.

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