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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    You could read one of my other posts to figure out why it affects me greatly. They're quite detailed, just scroll up. I also have no problem with easier content like Flex Mode, it's LFR which can be AFKed that affects me greatly.
    This?

    It's LFR that kills things. It's a great tool to have and should remain in the game, but should not be part of the progression path, ever. It shouldn't have any loot rewards or have any incentive to go there for any reason other than to see bosses with your own eyes, so to speak.
    Well so sorry, but people with time constraints and RL responsibilities, or simply hate "raiding", would like to advance their gear too you know? Gear advancement (or more accurately character advancement; but in WoW gear is the only form of character advancement @ level cap) is the main point of games like these.

  2. #602
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    Instead of your analogy i would say something like, "Here's a book, the first 90 pages are picture stories, the last 10 pages are text, to experience the last chapter you need to learn how to read" - That was vanilla/TBC

    "Here's a book, all the pages are picture stories, except at the back, in upside down mirrored writing is the last 0.5% of the story as text for those dirty basement dwellers who can read" - This is MoP.
    All these sweet analogies. Your would work if there was only LFR. But heroic raiding is still there.

    I don't buy this shit of LFR has made ppl lose all interest in other content. When you played Quake or Doom, there were 5 difficulty settings. You didn't even get a special reward for playing the harder ones. You could just faceroll on easy and be done with it.

    But just as people set themselves a challenge back then (and other did just faceroll it on easy) you can nowalso chose your level to play on in WoW. Lucky we didn't have internet forums back in the days of those multi difficulty FPS, right? Or that casual vs hardcore debate would have been enflammed already then...

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 10:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    You could read one of my other posts to figure out why it affects me greatly. They're quite detailed, just scroll up. I also have no problem with easier content like Flex Mode, it's LFR which can be queued for and AFKed that affects me greatly.
    It can be afked, just like we had people afk in our MC and BWL runs. Or just stupidly die at the start of a fight and you had no CR, so that was a "clever" way to afk when mom called. Also LFR is designed to compensate for some slackers.

    But hell...this is the community of MMO C: Always expecting the worst of the others, Yes..WE are always in a run where we do 50% of the dps and tank the last 5% because every tank and healer nab died. The others are always shit and WE carry them to loot.

    I honestly wonder why WE are in LFR and not where WE belong...in heroic raiding.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I honestly wonder why WE are in LFR and not where WE belong...in heroic raiding.
    Again, someone that hasn't read any of my other posts at all. I don't want to be in LFR, and apparently you don't want me to be in LFR either (although I don't know where you got all of that attitude from, as it didn't come from me.) However, despite this, Blizzard still heavily encourages Heroic Raiders to run LFR, for Titan Runestones on bosses we sat for, or the occasional upgrade which does happen quite frequently.

    Read my other posts and see if you can come back with a response that isn't some blind hate you forced on me. I have never once finished an LFR and felt like I carried everyone and they all suck. You wrote that about me.

    I wish, more than anything, that Blizzard would keep LFR and redesign it to fit what people want it to be. They don't care about progressing their character and they don't have time to do so, they just want to see the content. Remove the loot and incentives from LFR (as I wrote in other posts you decided you didn't have the time to read) and make it what people want it to be. A way to see the content, and nothing more.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-06-09 at 08:40 AM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  4. #604
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Again, someone that hasn't read any of my other posts at all. I don't want to be in LFR, and apparently you don't want me to be in LFR either (although I don't know where you got all of that attitude from, as it didn't come from me.) However, despite this, Blizzard still heavily encourages Heroic Raiders to run LFR, for Titan Runestones on bosses we sat for, or the occasional upgrade which does happen quite frequently. Read my other posts and see if you can come back with a response that isn't some blind hate you forced on me.
    Optimizing your game can sometimes take extra amounts of effort, strangely enough.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
    I'd ask "Why is Exclusive content a GOOD thing to some people?"
    Because a rewrad/accomplishment is a shit reward/accomplishment if everyone has it
    Reaching lvl 10 is hardly worth praising.......killing Heroic Lei Shen on the other hand....
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  6. #606
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    It's bad for those people who can't get in. It's good for those people who can, so they can feel special.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    You could read one of my other posts to figure out why it affects me greatly. They're quite detailed, just scroll up. I also have no problem with easier content like Flex Mode, it's LFR which can be AFKed that affects me greatly.
    There was very nice post on official US forums:
    The other side of the coin is that I am very grateful to Blizzard for making the lower end of content accessible to players like myself who are disabled with a disease that makes it difficult to play. I have chronic fatigue, numbness to my fingers, and chronic joint pain. I am the "demented monkey" you speak of; and for me LFR is fun.

    It's obviously a good business decision to make content accessible to the vast majority of players like myself who aren't able to devote as much time to the game due to lack of energy, ability or other commitments.

    It really is just a game. It's cool that you are talented enough to be or have been one of the top players at one time...but it really IS just a game. Perhaps it's just time to find a new challenge in gaming or in real life. Perhaps something entirely different.
    People who have intense work, they would understand the nature of fatigue and it's various sides, and would agree with poster greatly. RPG, as a genre, was always a relaxing gaming activity after work in such cases. However, with what is being done to game, it is basically denying any serious character progression to the player, who has enough pressure in real-life. If you want LFR to go, then heroic modes should go away too, and in any case - Arcade elements should leave this game or you won't see state of community ever improving.

    P.S.: Oh once again speaking of Arcade elements. It is just so happened that those are enjoyed mostly by people with high adrenaline, who aren't really good in social interactions. Probably this is one of reasons why we have no Super Mario Arcade MMO and why current arcade based MMOs aren't really successful. People can speak of "exclusivity" all they want, but then they shouldn't complain about the sad state of community.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    However, despite this, Blizzard still heavily encourages Heroic Raiders to run LFR, for Titan Runestones on bosses we sat for, or the occasional upgrade which does happen quite frequently.
    Something Blizzard tried to evliviate with certain changes......
    Cept now this Flex mode is adding all those problems back in
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    There was very nice post on official US forums:

    People who have intense work, they would understand the nature of fatigue and it's various sides, and would agree with poster greatly. RPG, as a genre, was always a relaxing gaming activity after work in such cases. However, with what is being done to game, it is basically denying any serious character progression to the player, who has enough pressure in real-life. If you want LFR to go, then heroic modes should go away too, and in any case - Arcade elements should leave this game or you won't see state of community ever improving.

    P.S.: Oh once again speaking of Arcade elements. It is just so happened that those are enjoyed mostly by people with high adrenaline, who aren't really good in social interactions. Probably this is one of reasons why we have no Super Mario Arcade MMO and why current arcade based MMOs aren't really successful. People can speak of "exclusivity" all they want, but then they shouldn't complain about the sad state of community.
    I totally understand that's where some people are coming from, and would love to support them! That's why I want to keep LFR as it is, but remove all loot and incentives, so people who want to see the content can do so. The issue is that it's part of the progression path of a normal player instead of an alternative to fit some people's needs, like the one above.

    Edit: You could even have LFR drop purely cosmetic rewards so people do feel like their character is moving forward. Armor akin to challenge mode sets that can be transmogged. If they aren't moving past LFR, the lack of stats shouldn't affect them, and they can still feel the progression.

    Perhaps even keep the loot but severely reduce it's ilevel, so the progression path isn't affected by it. There are tons of alternatives that work, but Heroics > LFR > Normals isn't one that's currently working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Optimizing your game can sometimes take extra amounts of effort, strangely enough.
    You're absolutely right and I would argue that I have no issues with this statement. What I do have an issue with is that the way this is accomplished is through LFR. There could be options and alternatives that are much, much more rewarding for everyone involved. I'm not claiming Blizzard never does anything right, or that I shouldn't have to do extra work as a Heroic raider. I'm saying LFR is not the best way to fulfill that "extra work" requirement, for anyone. Especially when there are no alternatives.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-06-09 at 08:58 AM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  10. #610
    This one is easy, everyone wants to believe they are the shits, pro as can be, Everyone! Exclusive content may prove them wrong and that would make them sad and unsubscribe -> less dineros to blizzard

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Optimizing your game can sometimes take extra amounts of effort, strangely enough.
    and if that extra effort is other forms of content (dailies/scenarios/whatever) then thats all fine by me
    Cept these flex mode isnt, its the same exact thing of something we already do.
    Raiders being bored thus giving them a raid thats the exact thing in all aspects of what they already do isnt helpful
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  12. #612
    The amount of people in this thread without jobs or any other life engagements is too damn high. That's all I can say.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    I'm saying LFR is not the best way to fulfill that "extra work" requirement, for anyone. Especially when there are no alternatives.
    LFR or flex mode "fullfillying the extra work" req is the absolute worse idea. It makes zero sense.
    Raiders are bored
    Blizz- well here is this raid to supplement your playtime
    A new raid?
    Blizz - Nope, its the same exact fucking thing of what you already do. Same exact bosses, same exact environment, same exact loot models.
    How is that helpful?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 09:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    The amount of people in this thread without jobs or any other life engagements is too damn high. That's all I can say.
    The "no life" argument. Used by people who have no argument
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    The amount of people in this thread without jobs or any other life engagements is too damn high. That's all I can say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It's bad for those people who can't get in. It's good for those people who can, so they can feel special.
    So many assumptions. All from people who feel like they're lower on some totem pole that they made up for themselves. There may be a few people in the thread that are supporting your claims, but that isn't true about everyone who wants to see challenging content. You can read any of my posts to see the situation from a player that recognizes where everyone else is coming from. I don't make assumptions about them or insult them, I approach the situation rationally. Making sweeping generalizations like this is a bit hurtful and untrue.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-06-09 at 09:08 AM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  15. #615
    It's so crazy that people don't complain about Gladiator titles in PvP. That's what you would call exclusive content. That drives people to get high ratings, believe it or not. Imagine if everyone could get Gladiator titles for PvPing once a week. Imagine everyone being able to face the top PvPers in the world and were given a buff so they could kill them on an easier difficulty. Who would be driven to do arenas then? Oh, and don't think for a second that PvP gear changes made in MoP didn't drive a bunch of players away.
    Last edited by Phasma; 2013-06-09 at 09:11 AM.

  16. #616
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post

    You're absolutely right and I would argue that I have no issues with this statement. What I do have an issue with is that the way this is accomplished is through LFR. There could be options and alternatives that are much, much more rewarding for everyone involved. I'm not claiming Blizzard never does anything right, or that I shouldn't have to do extra work as a Heroic raider. I'm saying LFR is not the best way to fulfill that "extra work" requirement, for anyone. Especially when there are no alternatives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and if that extra effort is other forms of content (dailies/scenarios/whatever) then thats all fine by me
    Cept these flex mode isnt, its the same exact thing of something we already do.
    Raiders being bored thus giving them a raid thats the exact thing in all aspects of what they already do isnt helpful

    So you agree it should take work, just... not the kind of work you don't want to do?

    That could be argued for any avenue they'd want you to take.

    You mentioned dailies. People have already said how much they hate dailies. And bonus rolls, and all that other stuff.

    If you want the best, you put in the effort, whatever it may be. That's just the way it works. Why remove the option to do something for someone that's willing to put in more work than you are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasma View Post
    It's so crazy that people don't complain about Gladiator titles in PvP. That's what you would call exclusive content. That drives people to get high ratings, believe it or not. Imagine if everyone could get Gladiator titles for PvPing once a week. Imagine everyone being able to face the top PvPers in the world. Who would be driven to do arenas then? Oh, and don't think for a second that PvP gear changes made in MoP didn't drive a bunch of players away.
    And yet people can still fight in the same arena and battleground maps that top ranked PvP players do, just against less skilled opponents.

    I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2013-06-09 at 09:12 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #617
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Again, someone that hasn't read any of my other posts at all. I don't want to be in LFR, and apparently you don't want me to be in LFR either....

    ....what people want it to be. They don't care about progressing their character and they don't have time to do so, they just want to see the content.


    Remove the loot and incentives from LFR (as I wrote in other posts you decided you didn't have the time to read) and make it what people want it to be. A way to see the content, and nothing more.
    Well, I quoted that part that was odd to me, obviously just by not adressing every point in every post you have to assume I didn't read them. You know the part where you think LFR afkers affect you.

    So again, I will quote parts and still have read the rest ^^

    For the part of what Blizzard"enforces on heroic raiders" - that discussion will never be solved. Some will always feel forced, others can and do decide differently.

    I will have to play the card that you do not know what people want LFR To be. What a sweeping generalisation to say they don't want to progress their character. Ofc they do...they have proven it already by levelling to 90. And ofc you progress your character through dailies, through world drops, through 5 man, through scenarios and ofc through the different LFR tiers.

    Remove loot from LFR so it is just a way to see content won't happen either. I guess you can just watch a youtube video in that case...or Blizzard can just put it into a cinematic.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    And yet people can still fight in the same arena and battleground maps that top ranked PvP players do, just against less skilled opponents.

    I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
    Oh, but they aren't the same encounters. I want to face Reckful on easy difficulty mode, please. That's a dead on comparison to the attitude of PvE players that want accessibility.
    Last edited by Phasma; 2013-06-09 at 09:17 AM.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Well, I quoted that part that was odd to me, obviously just by not adressing every point in every post you have to assume I didn't read them. You know the part where you think LFR afkers affect you.

    So again, I will quote parts and still have read the rest ^^

    For the part of what Blizzard"enforces on heroic raiders" - that discussion will never be solved. Some will always feel forced, others can and do decide differently.

    I will have to play the card that you do not know what people want LFR To be. What a sweeping generalisation to say they don't want to progress their character. Ofc they do...they have proven it already by levelling to 90. And ofc you progress your character through dailies, through world drops, through 5 man, through scenarios and ofc through the different LFR tiers.

    Remove loot from LFR so it is just a way to see content won't happen either. I guess you can just watch a youtube video in that case...or Blizzard can just put it into a cinematic.
    You are correct that I should have refined my statement to say "progress their characters deeper into raiding." I apologize. About removing loot from LFR, people have already claimed that they would rather see bosses with their own eyes than watch it on YouTube, which is where the cosmetic (or very low ilevel) loot comes into play. If players don't want to progress their characters deeper into raiding (by starting up Normal mode) then their loot is essentially cosmetic already. The ilevel doesn't affect them, but it does affect other people.

    So no, removing current-tier level loot from LFR wouldn't be the same as forcing everyone to watch YouTube.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So you agree it should take work, just... not the kind of work you don't want to do?

    That could be argued for any avenue they'd want you to take.

    You mentioned dailies. People have already said how much they hate dailies. And bonus rolls, and all that other stuff.

    If you want the best, you put in the effort, whatever it may be. That's just the way it works. Why remove the option to do something for someone that's willing to put in more work than you are?
    You're misunderstanding me. I do everything to keep my character top-notch and will never complain that I have to do so. I'm simply trying to find a way that's more fun for everyone. I'm not saying I don't want to have to do content. I'll run LFR gladly, it can be fun with friends because I enjoy their company. I still think there's a better way to set up the whole situation.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-06-09 at 09:18 AM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  20. #620
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phasma View Post
    Oh, but they aren't the same encounters. I want to face Reckful on easy difficulty mode, please.
    Then go fight some scrub PvPer named Яêckfül.

    It'll be easier, you wont have access to the best gear by defeating him, it occurs on the same map in which you could fight the real Reckful... How many rounds are you going to lodge in your foot, exactly?
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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