1. #1561
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    How was it perfect when a vast majority of the raiding playerbase were stuck at T4 for the entire expansion?

    I do agree that things move a bit too fast nowadays. But I don't think TBC was good either.
    I think the keys and attunements of T5 was handled poorly, but I don't remember anything like you described with lots of people stuck on T4. A lot of people were still running Karazhan towards the end of TBC, but I think that's more a matter of how good the zone was and how little the item levels inflated over the course of the expansion. Your alts would be running Kara and ZA with the lucky odd Hyjal/BT run, while your main was in Sunwell. I was still doing Kara/ZA on my main at the end of TBC despite being in nearly full Sunwell gear. That's a testament to how fun and enjoyable the zones were. Ulduar had slightly similar appeal in WotLK.

    There's nothing wrong with 1st tier gear still being desirable by newer players, especially the the ENTIRE expansion only saw item levels go from 115 to 154. Now, we practically see spreads of that magnitude within a single tier...ie: a Kara/ZA/badge geared player was actually a better Sunwell candidate than a LFR/valor geared player would be now for Heroic modes.

    If the content is challenging, and the loot is progressing your character, and there's lots of folks to party up with...is there really such a problem with what tier it happens to be in?
    Last edited by Harmann; 2013-06-17 at 07:55 PM.

  2. #1562
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmann View Post
    I think the keys and attunements of T5 was handled poorly, but I don't remember anything like you described with lots of people stuck on T4. A lot of people were still running Karazhan towards the end of TBC, but I think that's more a matter of how good the zone was and how little the item levels inflated over the course of the expansion. Your alts would be running Kara and ZA with the lucky odd Hyjal/BT run, while your main was in Sunwell.

    There's nothing wrong with 1st tier gear still being desirable by newer players, especially the the ENTIRE expansion only saw item levels go from 115 to 154. Now, we practically see spreads of that magnitude within a single tier...ie: a Kara/ZA/badge geared player was actually a better Sunwell candidate than a LFR/valor geared player would be now for Heroic modes.

    If the content is challenging, and the loot is progressing your character, and there's lots of folks to party up with...is there really such a problem with what tier it happens to be in?
    Well when you initially had to kill the final bosses in TK and SSC 25 times to progress because they only dropped one vial each, that kinda sucked. Fortunately that got changed to dropping one for everyone on the quest. As for people still running kara even at the end, that was due to farming chanting mats, gold, and badges.

    Oh, and 115--->154 is like a 35% increase. Tanks went from about 12k health at entry level to around 22k in full t6/SWP gear.

  3. #1563
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Or maybe it would've grown to 20 million subs, there's certainly enough gamers and the market keeps growing. The reality is that nobody knows what the impact of LFR/LFD was exactly on the whole, although you can sample from the individual experiences of people to get some kind of view.
    There is no evidence that leaving the game without LFD/LFR would have had a positve effect. Those features were added for good reasons, driven by in-game stats. All new MMO-like games are forced to add something like LFD (GW2 is adding it now, I understand.)
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  4. #1564
    Quote Originally Posted by alduron View Post
    Well when you initially had to kill the final bosses in TK and SSC 25 times to progress because they only dropped one vial each, that kinda sucked. Fortunately that got changed to dropping one for everyone on the quest. As for people still running kara even at the end, that was due to farming chanting mats, gold, and badges.

    Oh, and 115--->154 is like a 35% increase. Tanks went from about 12k health at entry level to around 22k in full t6/SWP gear.
    Item level scales exponentially, so 10 ilvl is always more or less the same percentage gain in character power. Doesn't matter if you're going from 74 to 84 (Rank 14 to C'thun weapons) or going from 512 to 522.

  5. #1565
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There is no evidence that leaving the game without LFD/LFR would have had a positve effect. Those features were added for good reasons, driven by in-game stats. All new MMO-like games are forced to add something like LFD (GW2 is adding it now, I understand.)
    Except that when it (and the 10/25/easy/hard) wasn't in the game the subs grew every quarter. That's not proof of course, but there's no proof of LFD/LFR having a positive effect either.

  6. #1566
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmann View Post
    I think the keys and attunements of T5 was handled poorly, but I don't remember anything like you described with lots of people stuck on T4. A lot of people were still running Karazhan towards the end of TBC, but I think that's more a matter of how good the zone was and how little the item levels inflated over the course of the expansion. Your alts would be running Kara and ZA with the lucky odd Hyjal/BT run, while your main was in Sunwell.
    I think many people have a hard time remembering TBC. It is true that a vast majority of raiders did not ever get past T4. That is exactly why WotLK had the easiest raids in the game (not including LFR), and faster catch up mechanisms. Blizz saw that many people were getting frustrated at not being able to progress between tiers.

    The people who raided Sunwell during TBC were a huge miniority within the game. If you happened to be one of those people, then kudos to you. However, that was not common place at all.

    EDIT- And for the record, I think exclusive content is a good thing - in moderation.

  7. #1567
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmann View Post
    Item level scales exponentially, so 10 ilvl is always more or less the same percentage gain in character power. Doesn't matter if you're going from 74 to 84 (Rank 14 to C'thun weapons) or going from 512 to 522.
    Yes, as a percentage of the highest of the two ilevels that you're comparing, but if you normalize everything in terms of the latest ilevel, the percentages no longer work out to be the same. To illustrate:

    Exponential sequence - 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512

    Your claim:

    Percentage stat gain for the 10th entry: 512 - 256 / 512 = 256 / 512 = 50%
    Percentage stat gain for the 9th entry: 256 - 128 / 256 = 128 / 256 = 50%

    However, if you're going to compare both percentages you need to consider that the latest "tier" raises the maximum stat from 256 to 512 and normalize your results accordingly. When you do that:

    Percentage stat gain for the 10th entry: 512 - 256 / 512 = 256 / 512 = 50%
    Percentage stat gain for the 9th entry: 256 - 128 / 512 = 128 / 512 = 25%

    Percentages are tricky beasts and are often used to mislead. If you're going to compare percentages they need to be percentages of the same thing. In this case you need to compare the differences between tiers in terms of the maximum stats for the current tier, not in terms of the maximum stats for each tier. When you calculate them that way they don't work out to be the same at all.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-06-17 at 09:44 PM.

  8. #1568
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yes, as a percentage of the highest of the two ilevels that you're comparing, but if you normalize everything in terms of the latest ilevel, the percentages no longer work out to be the same. To illustrate:

    Exponential sequence - 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512

    Your claim:

    Percentage stat gain for the 10th entry: 512 - 256 / 512 = 256 / 512 = 50%
    Percentage stat gain for the 9th entry: 256 - 128 / 256 = 128 / 256 = 50%

    However, if you're going to compare both percentages you need to consider that the latest "tier" raises the maximum stat from 256 to 512 and normalize your results accordingly. When you do that:

    Percentage stat gain for the 10th entry: 512 - 256 / 512 = 256 / 512 = 50%
    Percentage stat gain for the 9th entry: 256 - 128 / 512 = 128 / 512 = 25%

    Percentages are tricky beasts and are often used to mislead. If you're going to compare percentages they need to be percentages of the same thing. In this case you need to compare the differences between tiers in terms of the maximum stats for the current tier, not in terms of the maximum stats for each tier. When you calculate them that way they don't work out to be the same at all.
    I'm not sure I follow what you mean here.

    We're trying to just look at a pure and simple 13 ilvl increase, and I'm just saying that as far as I'm aware...13 ilvls always represents a similar percentage boost in gear power. So you've got n and n+13, and regardless of whether n is 150 or 900, when you add 13, you've increased the stats of that gear by roughly the same percentage in both cases; whether it's 150 to 163, or 900 to 913.

  9. #1569
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Assume you meant Karazhan, but even then, how are you stuck in it? The rest of it was there to do. The entire expansion was there to do.
    You assume incorrectly. Gruul and Magtheridon were part of T4. You basically just said "it's OK if you can't make it in Ulduar/Firelands, you can 'progress' from Naxxramas/BWD to Sartharion and Malygos/To4W and BoT." Which is a meaningless distinction, as they are also part of the same tier.
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  10. #1570
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    You assume incorrectly. Gruul and Magtheridon were part of T4. You basically just said "it's OK if you can't make it in Ulduar/Firelands, you can 'progress' from Naxxramas/BWD to Sartharion and Malygos/To4W and BoT." Which is a meaningless distinction, as they are also part of the same tier.
    If you are progressing, you aren't stuck regardless of how slow or what tier it is.
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  11. #1571
    It is when the argument you are trying to make revolves around your guild not being "stuck in Tier 4" because "we killed Gruul!"
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  12. #1572
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami-Gilneas View Post
    From a business POV its also madness to let everyone consume the content the 1st day its available in LFR.

    LFR will be improved by making it less and less appealing compared to flexiraids.

    Although Blizz stated that they currently have no plans to remove tier-sets from LFR, they sure will make some changes in the next expansion.
    I do agree, I think the staggering of LFR release helps a lot in this regard and in fact it does work you can't clear all the content in LFR on day 1 its impossible as its not released. The issue is several months down the line i guess when its all available. They will make some further improvements to the raiding system overall which will help. They won't remove anything from LFR unless its a major negative. Flex/normal etc will get new additions to lure people into doing them which is a good idea.

  13. #1573
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    There's nothing at all wrong with it. In the end though it's an economics and design argument.

    The obvious example is raiding content. Blizzard gets to make the call on whether or not to develop it and how much time and effort to sink into it. When 'raiding' as content was difficult to get into, i.e. more exclusive if you will, eventually it became difficult to justify the costs of creating it given the number of people doing it.

    So they made a decision that if they could get more people into it in one form or another by making it less difficult--less exclusive--they could justify allocating more to it.

    The move to make content 'less exclusive' is the natural result of a future in which it appears as if the game population will continue to shrink due to a number of factors. One can safely assume that exclusive content that is resource heavy to develop and which ends up having not much of an audience will be cut. That applies to raiding, PVP or any content really.

    So the decision is really to make things accessible as a justification to keep them running or to keep certain things exclusive and if they fail to attract an audience cut them out.

    This is the main point that the interview with the LOL content designer missed. Blizzard needs to make economic justifications for what they do because the nature of their game is simply more complicated than League of Legends with a lot more variety in content and moving parts.
    I don't get this, because they had more subscribers in BC, and less people doing all of the content. Those people were all paying the same $15 a month and there were more of them, so they had the money to develop the content whether people saw it or not, the same amount of money was still there, in fact, even more money than (presumably) now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 03:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Your babble here indicates that those players had nothing else to do, and that raiding was the only end game content to play with. You indicate that it was not economically smart for them to "exclude" millions of players, yet you cant explain why players continued to shell money at blizzard into the hundreds of millions as subscriptions continued to rise.
    They continued to shell money at Blizzard because it took so much time and effort to reach the "exclusive" content that it kept people playing. This is how a P2P model works, and this is how it should be done. If they just want to have a model where they release content, and people devour it in a small time window and then unsub until new content comes out, they should consider either going B2P or F2P. Because you cannot sustain a population in a P2P game with a "see it and leave" style content model, P2P models are purposefully time consuming for this very reason. To keep people playing.
    Last edited by Tempeste; 2013-06-18 at 10:25 AM.

  14. #1574
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    Here's an interesting thought. What if you had the TBC model but without having specific raids being 25-only (i.e. the Wrath thru current style where you can choose 10 or 25)? Now bear in mind that I did not play TBC (I didn't even start playing until Patch 3.3) but it seems like having to have 25 people would have been a larger factor than attunements (although attunements seem pretty bad too) in why so many guilds were stuck in Kara until Wrath.

    While I haven't played TBC I did play Rift for a while and that has a similar tier style (no attunements though, but there are strict gear/stat requirements for the tiers so it's similar). What screwed my raiding intentions more than anything else was just not having 20 people (not even getting into whether or not they were skilled enough) to do the 20-man raids, and only being able to run the 10-man raid (which was only 4 bosses to boot). I imagine it might have been similar in TBC where you could do Kara (and later ZA) with 10 but then you needed to find 15 other people who were attuned/geared/skilled to even attempt the other raids.
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  15. #1575
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Here's an interesting thought. What if you had the TBC model but without having specific raids being 25-only (i.e. the Wrath thru current style where you can choose 10 or 25)? Now bear in mind that I did not play TBC (I didn't even start playing until Patch 3.3) but it seems like having to have 25 people would have been a larger factor than attunements (although attunements seem pretty bad too) in why so many guilds were stuck in Kara until Wrath.

    While I haven't played TBC I did play Rift for a while and that has a similar tier style (no attunements though, but there are strict gear/stat requirements for the tiers so it's similar). What screwed my raiding intentions more than anything else was just not having 20 people (not even getting into whether or not they were skilled enough) to do the 20-man raids, and only being able to run the 10-man raid (which was only 4 bosses to boot). I imagine it might have been similar in TBC where you could do Kara (and later ZA) with 10 but then you needed to find 15 other people who were attuned/geared/skilled to even attempt the other raids.
    It did work like that in TBC for the most part, and speaking personally as a player on hiatus at the start of the expansion, having to play catch-up more than halfway thru...it was fantastically done.

    I had to put in effort to get the gear I needed to begin applying to Sunwell guilds, but with things like 10 man ZA, long lasting loot from Karazhan, badge items, Sunwell reputation items, Magister's Terrace items (I fucking loved that zone, perfectly tuned 5 man difficulty), and the option to just straight up buy fantastic crafted gear from Sunwell patterns, or join SWP trash farming runs (and meeting a lot of cool people in the process)...I was up and raiding SWP within a month with a friends list full of great people I'd met along the way.

    The pacing was perfect. I couldn't just log in for the first time in 8 months and jump into SWP within a week or two, but it also wasn't needlessly long and drawn out. Furthermore, the instance difficulty made me really feel like I'd earned my way into SWP...and that's very important for setting the scale of the game and pacing of progression. I had to be playing my Priest very well to get through the ZA runs, Kara, Magister's Terrace, and the few pickup group raids I was able to get into for SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT. By the time I set foot into Sunwell Plateau, I felt ready in every way. My gear was ready, my healing was ready, and my ability to work with a team was ready.

    I feel like if I wanted to make a comeback now, the activities are much more brainless and don't really put a lot of emphasis on ANY of those skills. In fact, some guy did a great video where he hits 90 on a new Rogue, and literally gears him up for raiding while AFK. To prove a point in how ridiculously hand-out the game has become, he /follows through LFD Heroics, LFR, etc., and by the end of a couple weeks he's ready to raid current content without having ever dealt damage in a dungeon or raid, spoken to another player, followed any strategy, learned his rotation, or anything at all.

  16. #1576
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempeste View Post
    I don't get this, because they had more subscribers in BC, and less people doing all of the content.
    They tried to go back to a BC-like philosophy in Cataclysm. It failed. And I think that failure shows that BC succeeded in spite of that philosophy, not because of it. It was much easier for WoW to grow back then, where there was a large population of potential new customers, and not a large population of ex-customers giving negative word of mouth.

    Today, recruiting into the game is harder, so the game design has much less latitude for screwups.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  17. #1577
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmann View Post
    It did work like that in TBC for the most part, and speaking personally as a player on hiatus at the start of the expansion, having to play catch-up more than halfway thru...it was fantastically done.

    I had to put in effort to get the gear I needed to begin applying to Sunwell guilds, but with things like 10 man ZA, long lasting loot from Karazhan, badge items, Sunwell reputation items, Magister's Terrace items (I fucking loved that zone, perfectly tuned 5 man difficulty), and the option to just straight up buy fantastic crafted gear from Sunwell patterns, or join SWP trash farming runs (and meeting a lot of cool people in the process)...I was up and raiding SWP within a month with a friends list full of great people I'd met along the way.

    The pacing was perfect. I couldn't just log in for the first time in 8 months and jump into SWP within a week or two, but it also wasn't needlessly long and drawn out. Furthermore, the instance difficulty made me really feel like I'd earned my way into SWP...and that's very important for setting the scale of the game and pacing of progression. I had to be playing my Priest very well to get through the ZA runs, Kara, Magister's Terrace, and the few pickup group raids I was able to get into for SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT. By the time I set foot into Sunwell Plateau, I felt ready in every way. My gear was ready, my healing was ready, and my ability to work with a team was ready.

    I feel like if I wanted to make a comeback now, the activities are much more brainless and don't really put a lot of emphasis on ANY of those skills. In fact, some guy did a great video where he hits 90 on a new Rogue, and literally gears him up for raiding while AFK. To prove a point in how ridiculously hand-out the game has become, he /follows through LFD Heroics, LFR, etc., and by the end of a couple weeks he's ready to raid current content without having ever dealt damage in a dungeon or raid, spoken to another player, followed any strategy, learned his rotation, or anything at all.
    The guy was preach and while he has a point (you can play as badly as you like and get rewarded to a degree) he is still a massive elitest. I've done every raid mode you can imagine either the vanilla/tbc model the wrath models (up to icc as I quit in toc) came back for cata and lost interest in it after doing some "heroic" raids and currently mega casual in mop. I will be frank. If mop did not have LFR or pet battles and some of the other casual friendly features my self and a lot of my friends would not have come back.

    We have odd play times and when we log on simply just want to get on and play not having to schedule our lives around a game anymore. Heroic raiding is a massive time commitment and it often felt like a job. I enjoyed raiding regardless and would not have changed a thing about it back then. The only issue with LFR is probably how quickly its released perhaps staggering it a bit more would help on release but not too much.

    As for someone AFKing and getting gear, that happened in pugs in vanilla and in dungeons. All preach did was see if its possible. It is and thats not blizzards fault. Thats players for not noticing and using the tools provided to deal with it (in the video someone spots it and he gets kicked so he proves the point that the game works as intended)

  18. #1578
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They tried to go back to a BC-like philosophy in Cataclysm. It failed. And I think that failure shows that BC succeeded in spite of that philosophy, not because of it. It was much easier for WoW to grow back then, where there was a large population of potential new customers, and not a large population of ex-customers giving negative word of mouth.

    Today, recruiting into the game is harder, so the game design has much less latitude for screwups.
    Yeah, I don't think the growth in subs during TBC had anything to do with raid philosophies either. It was a newer game, and there was no real competition. Hence, subs went up. Now, it's an older game with lots of competition. Hence, subs go down. Not really rocket science.

  19. #1579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They tried to go back to a BC-like philosophy in Cataclysm. It failed. And I think that failure shows that BC succeeded in spite of that philosophy, not because of it. It was much easier for WoW to grow back then, where there was a large population of potential new customers, and not a large population of ex-customers giving negative word of mouth.

    Today, recruiting into the game is harder, so the game design has much less latitude for screwups.
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Yeah, I don't think the growth in subs during TBC had anything to do with raid philosophies either. It was a newer game, and there was no real competition. Hence, subs went up. Now, it's an older game with lots of competition. Hence, subs go down. Not really rocket science.
    So maybe the subloss in cata wasnt because of harder 5man Heroics... the game just got old and had too much competition.

    When Cata shows that WoW grew in spite of lower accessibility during BC then MOP shows that WoW grew in spite of the higher accessibility during WOTLK.

  20. #1580
    All content should be accessible to anyone who purchases the game, however, making said content stupidly easy to complete is not the way to go.

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