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  1. #681
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Only problem with FFC is that of the fights where there is usually something else to kill that's important to kill (Protectors, Norushen, Sha, Galakras, Siegecrafter?, Paragons?, Garrosh?) only one of them works in a non-padding situation, generates enough adds during all times of the fight for trinket procs and targets are close enough for the proc to occur. That fight is Norushen.
    This isn't quite true. Any fight with effective AoE will benefit from cleave trinket, even fights where you focus a target. There is no AoE fight this tier where you'd use FFC where you also need to nuke a target so hard that FFC is useless. Part of this is because AoE attacks/bleeds etc can tick off secondary targets onto primary.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    This isn't quite true. Any fight with effective AoE will benefit from cleave trinket, even fights where you focus a target. There is no AoE fight this tier where you'd use FFC where you also need to nuke a target so hard that FFC is useless. Part of this is because AoE attacks/bleeds etc can tick off secondary targets onto primary.
    But the point I'm trying to make is that most fights with adds that would make it beneficial to use the cleave trinkets the benefit is minimal given that the adds die relatively quickly and/or aren't stacked on top of one another, preventing the Cleave from proccing. Course I haven't attempted to model this with math so I could be wrong but just a rough guess I can't imagine the cleave trinkets are that significantly stronger on fights where meter padding is possible because stuff dies too fast.

  3. #683
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    Its worth using. Adds dying faster=faster fight in most cases anyway. Although the only fights I use it on are galakras and paragons padding.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Its worth using. Adds dying faster=faster fight in most cases anyway. Although the only fights I use it on are galakras and paragons padding.
    So which fights would you consider using FFC over Thok's? Only two obvious fights that come to mind are Norushen (the entire fight is helpful for the cleave) and Galakras (phase 2 is the only part of the fight that matters and when are there even adds up at this point?). Then yeah, Paragons for constant meter padding. As for Garrosh, are the MCs after phase 1 occurring fast enough where the Cleave would be worth having the entire fight or is that just for phase 1 adds padding?

  5. #685
    The only good fights for FFC are galakras, protectors (if they're kept stacked up), spoils (if you open a lot of small boxes), and nazgrim if adds are stacked on boss.

    It's likely a dps loss to use FFC on garrosh due to the low uptime on adds. The proc also only has a 5 yard range, so it will not hit adds on norushen very often.

    When you look at the chart I posted with trinkets, you have to mentally "guess" the percentage uptime of aoe vs single target.

    Example being Garrosh. If I had to guess, I'm doing a single target rotation on Garrosh 90% of the time, and semi-aoeing 6-8 targets 10% of the time. For the sake of simplicity we'll say the fight is 12 minutes long.

    It's around a 13k dps difference between thoks and FFC on single target, and with 90% uptime on my single target rotation that would be 648 seconds on garrosh * 13k = 8.42 million damage difference.

    90k dps difference between trinkets on 8-target aoe, with a 8% uptime. 10% = 72~ seconds * 90k = 6.48 million damage difference.

    So it's slightly better to go with normal trinkets rather than FFC.
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2014-05-11 at 07:38 PM.

  6. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    So which fights would you consider using FFC over Thok's? Only two obvious fights that come to mind are Norushen (the entire fight is helpful for the cleave) and Galakras (phase 2 is the only part of the fight that matters and when are there even adds up at this point?). Then yeah, Paragons for constant meter padding. As for Garrosh, are the MCs after phase 1 occurring fast enough where the Cleave would be worth having the entire fight or is that just for phase 1 adds padding?
    Depends. Are you asking for progression? Protectors Galakras, spoils, siegecrafter if on boss 100% maybe. Never tried using it on Norshuen and I held Rank 1 on that fight.

    For farm? I don't even bother.

    When learning garrosh I used it to help kill adds faster in p1. But I also played arms for that or frost depending on which toon.

  7. #687
    Protectors, Galakras, Nazgrim, Spoils. These fights will almost always benefit from you having FFC over Thok.
    Immerseus, Norushen, Shamans, Siegecrafter, Garrosh. These fights can benefit from FFC, depending on if your group lacks in the AoE department.

  8. #688
    That why we should have 4x X'alatoh warforged, 2 with WS and 2 with DS (when we use FFC) lol !

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Depends. Are you asking for progression? Protectors Galakras, spoils, siegecrafter if on boss 100% maybe. Never tried using it on Norshuen and I held Rank 1 on that fight.

    For farm? I don't even bother.

    When learning garrosh I used it to help kill adds faster in p1. But I also played arms for that or frost depending on which toon.
    Yes, I meant for progression purposes. Perhaps I'm underestimating how large 5 yards is but on some fights adds are generally too spread apart or far away from the boss that I would consider using FFC over Thok's for what little of progression I have left (H Garrosh Phase 3).

    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    The only good fights for FFC are galakras, protectors (if they're kept stacked up), spoils (if you open a lot of small boxes), and nazgrim if adds are stacked on boss.

    It's likely a dps loss to use FFC on garrosh due to the low uptime on adds. The proc also only has a 5 yard range, so it will not hit adds on norushen very often.

    When you look at the chart I posted with trinkets, you have to mentally "guess" the percentage uptime of aoe vs single target.

    Example being Garrosh. If I had to guess, I'm doing a single target rotation on Garrosh 90% of the time, and semi-aoeing 6-8 targets 10% of the time. For the sake of simplicity we'll say the fight is 12 minutes long.

    It's around a 13k dps difference between thoks and FFC on single target, and with 90% uptime on my single target rotation that would be 648 seconds on garrosh * 13k = 8.42 million damage difference.

    90k dps difference between trinkets on 8-target aoe, with a 8% uptime. 10% = 72~ seconds * 90k = 6.48 million damage difference.

    So it's slightly better to go with normal trinkets rather than FFC.
    Thank you for the math, just want to clarify that the 8-target numbers is all damage done and not just damage done to main target. If so I just can't see the point of using FFC on Garrosh or other fights with very low add uptime if the adds are generally dead within 10 seconds anyway; that extra damage just means they die a half-second faster if that.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2014-05-11 at 08:17 PM.

  10. #690
    Not to change the subject, but is Bladestorm parsing over Dragon Roar even on a single target fight ATM? I'm 575 and several people have told me this but I was not sure.

  11. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by soakeyy View Post
    Not to change the subject, but is Bladestorm parsing over Dragon Roar even on a single target fight ATM? I'm 575 and several people have told me this but I was not sure.
    Yes it is, cancel aura after enrage drops (5 seconds, 6 ticks) and don't use it during CS or push back CS to use it.

  12. #692
    Is it normal to get a SimC result where RB becomes higher damage per execute time than Execute? If so, does this mean that the "execute" range rotation changes?

    SimC run with Dèlath in signature below. Both show a very even damage per execute time, but RB pulls very slightly ahead.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Delath View Post
    Is it normal to get a SimC result where RB becomes higher damage per execute time than Execute? If so, does this mean that the "execute" range rotation changes?

    SimC run with Dèlath in signature below. Both show a very even damage per execute time, but RB pulls very slightly ahead.

    Not uncommon, doesn't particularly change the rotation. You just want to keep wasted RB charges to a minimum, which can lead to delaying bloodthirst occasionally.

  14. #694
    So I just started trying out bladestorm for single target. Do you always use berserker rage for bladestorm. If not then you may end up having to delay bladestorm if BT fails to crit. And you only get 2 shots. So what if you dont crit 2 BTs, then you go and use CS. So you still sure bladestorm > dragonroar?

  15. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by galvin View Post
    So I just started trying out bladestorm for single target. Do you always use berserker rage for bladestorm. If not then you may end up having to delay bladestorm if BT fails to crit. And you only get 2 shots. So what if you dont crit 2 BTs, then you go and use CS. So you still sure bladestorm > dragonroar?
    yes.

    /10char

  16. #696
    Question at CollisionTD:
    just saw you're using double-windsong according to your armory, why exactly?

    i did some simulations of my own and appearently there is no real difference anymore (like a less than 1k dps margin on 400k+ fights (450sec)) and now i'm quite curious why you decided to go double windsong.

    thx
    so far
    Sethanor

  17. #697
    Field Marshal Windowflip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sethanor View Post
    Question at CollisionTD:
    just saw you're using double-windsong according to your armory, why exactly?

    i did some simulations of my own and appearently there is no real difference anymore (like a less than 1k dps margin on 400k+ fights (450sec)) and now i'm quite curious why you decided to go double windsong.

    thx
    so far
    Sethanor
    He posted the math for WS vs DS on the page before this one.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post26983014

    http://warriordpr.blogspot.ca/2014/0...nts-again.html

  18. #698
    ah thx ... well, i searched for "windsong" and stuff, but seems like the search doesnt like me xD

  19. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sethanor View Post
    ah thx ... well, i searched for "windsong" and stuff, but seems like the search doesnt like me xD
    No worries man, I hear ya. It's worth noting (and you did mention) that the increase in DPS is very marginal, something like +0.1%.

    This is true, however, an increase in DPS is an increase in DPS. Period.

  20. #700
    well, how ever little of an increase it is now, its impact will get bigger with the 5.4.7 upgrade-buffs which will give us another 8 ilvl ...

    One thing i'm also very interested in is, we actually keep stacking crit, but with those upgrades, could it actually be more useful to start gemming mastery at some point... like lets say around 43% crit (unbuffed, which would yield 90% bloodthirst crit-chance after suppression).
    i personally feel like every point more crit i get i miss out on mastery and crit's usefulness really diminishes the closer we get to 48% (unbuffed) ...
    ofc more crit means more enrage uptime, but should we really compensate for the "least lucky tries" and miss out on quite a lot of mastery?

    would love to see some math on that, as with 5.4.7 this might be a concern

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