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  1. #1
    Mechagnome
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    Discussion of racials and alliance vs horde...

    I just want to open an honest discussion regarding racials and alliance vs horde.

    First off, I wanted to ask a couple questions. What is the rating points for good vs elite? I see a lot of people reference 2200+... is this the first stage you'd consider someone good in PvP? Also, what would be considered elite? 2500 or 2600+?

    On to some of the data. Currently in 3s (which is the main balance point for Blizzard):

    2200+ 88.2% Alliance, 11.8% Horde
    Top 3 races are:
    51.8% Human
    17.7% Night Elf
    13.4% Dwarf.

    http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...200&ladder=3v3

    2500+ 96.6% Alliance, 3.4% Horde
    Top 3 races are:
    53.9% Human
    20.6% Night Elf
    14.6% Dwarf

    http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...500&ladder=3v3


    Is this acceptable to you as whatever faction you may be? I know the problem this season has been exacerbated by top end PvP streamers switching factions to alliance, and their fan base following suit, but I do think that when you view a mass exodus of one faction to another that balance does need to be looked at.

    I believe since Wrath that the Human racial has been the best.

    What currently makes Night Elf racial abilities so good? What would balance them?

    What makes Dwarven racial so good? What would balance them?

    OR, should we forget about balancing racials and just disable them in rated PVP altogether? (I'm just here to talk about PVP, I am of the opinion that racials should also be balance for PVE, but that's a topic for another thread)

    My thoughts on the Dwarven racial would be to allow the removal of curses, bleeds, etc, but get rid of the 10% damage reduction for 8 seconds.
    Not sure about Night Elves, and I still don't have a great answer to humans.


    I really don't think racials are incredibly OP, but when you combine the small advantages that the racial abilities of the three major Alliance races give, and with certain class compositions, it can become a noticeable edge in PvP. Do they need to be looked at? Or do Horde just need to suck it up, and hope for better next expansion (asking this question in complete honesty)?

    I take this as an armchair balance expert (I'm really not) whose curiousity is piqued by the glaring imbalance of population for alliance vs horde this season. Please don't take this as I'm mad, but would really love to hear what the top end PvP'ers on MMO Champ think.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    *snip*

    On to some of the data. Currently in 3s (which is the main balance point for Blizzard):

    2200+ 88.2% Alliance, 11.8% Horde
    Top 3 races are:
    51.8% Human
    17.7% Night Elf
    13.4% Dwarf.

    http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...200&ladder=3v3

    2500+ 96.6% Alliance, 3.4% Horde
    Top 3 races are:
    53.9% Human
    20.6% Night Elf
    14.6% Dwarf

    http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...500&ladder=3v3

    *snip*
    Typical blizzard response: " Its not because the Human Racial is overpowered, its because of social reasons, and... um, stuff. Also, because people really genuinely love the lumpy shapeless mass of the human male model. Working as intended. Move along. Failure to comply will result in a 72 hour ban."

    Honestly, i think the best way to do it is to just give every race the same cc-break ability. Thats how it is in a few other MMOs and it seems to work out fine. Everyone has it, nobody gets to bitch anymore, people can go back to playing the race they want to play and not the one that gives them a slight but noticeable edge over non human races.

    I would also like to point out that it is not that the racial itself is so good that that is why the humans dominate all ranks. It is because to the truly competitive bleeding edge pvpers and their legions of wannabe stream followers, every advantage matters, no matter how small. And EMFH is an advantage, thus they roll humans.
    Last edited by Nihilan; 2015-01-20 at 09:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Factions are useless. Ashran horde never win. Time to remove the factions so everyone can play together no matter what race they wanna be

  4. #4
    Dreadlord
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    Blizzard argues that racials help make WoW feel more like an RPG.

    this is the biggest bs I have ever heard...because:

    BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE RACE YOU LIKE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF AN RPG! HOW CAN THEY NOT SEE THIS?! HOW!!!!!!!?????

    it hurts so much...

    have racials = people complain
    have no racials = people are super happy being able to play the race they like the most

    the answer is clear as friggin day. CLEAR. AS. FRIGGIN. DAY

    /rant

  5. #5
    Epic! WskyDK's Avatar
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    Oh look, this thread again.

    Honestly, what productive conversation do you think there's going to be here?

  6. #6
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    Oh look, this thread again.

    Honestly, what productive conversation do you think there's going to be here?
    the community (see my post) already has the answer to this topic. So we already have been productive. We solved the case.
    the only problem: Blizzard doesn't listen...like...at all.

  7. #7
    Epic! WskyDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    the community (see my post) already has the answer to this topic. So we already have been productive. We solved the case.
    the only problem: Blizzard doesn't listen...like...at all.
    That was my point I suppose. I could have been less bitchy though.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    Oh look, this thread again.

    Honestly, what productive conversation do you think there's going to be here?
    I am trying to present the data in question with a minimum of hyperbole, and finding viable suggestions on how to balance things. If you formulate a good enough argument, perhaps Blizzard will listen, but, unfortunately, it may not be changed until next expansion.

  9. #9
    I play Horde, playing Horde since i started playing 9 years ago.
    I don't believe that Alliance Racials are op, i actually agree with the "social reasons" explanation.
    The truth is if you want to do pvp alliance is just better because it as a bigger pvp player base.
    It's just snowball effect, and the ball is to big now to be stoped.

    The reason you see so many night elf is because there aren't Human Druids

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritvs View Post
    I play Horde, playing Horde since i started playing 9 years ago.
    I don't believe that Alliance Racials are op, i actually agree with the "social reasons" explanation.
    The truth is if you want to do pvp alliance is just better because it as a bigger pvp player base.
    It's just snowball effect, and the ball is to big now to be stoped.

    The reason you see so many night elf is because there aren't Human Druids
    Almost all top healers are nelf. Good shadowmelding acts as a second trinket (forces target loss, particularly powerful if you know how to use it vs certain cc), though it isn't as strong as it was when it worked as a vanish.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    Blizzard argues that racials help make WoW feel more like an RPG.

    this is the biggest bs I have ever heard...because:

    BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE RACE YOU LIKE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF AN RPG! HOW CAN THEY NOT SEE THIS?! HOW!!!!!!!?????

    it hurts so much...

    have racials = people complain
    have no racials = people are super happy being able to play the race they like the most

    the answer is clear as friggin day. CLEAR. AS. FRIGGIN. DAY

    /rant
    Yeah, I have no idea how they repeatedly fail to see the obvious here. On the other hand, they think a score of 1-1 should have a winner and a loser instead of actually being a tie or going into sudden death, so they obviously have no idea how to make a good competitive game.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    Blizzard argues that racials help make WoW feel more like an RPG.

    this is the biggest bs I have ever heard...because:

    BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE RACE YOU LIKE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF AN RPG! HOW CAN THEY NOT SEE THIS?! HOW!!!!!!!?????

    it hurts so much...

    have racials = people complain
    have no racials = people complain that the game is stale and lifeless, as the homogenization of fun has finally reached its peak

    the answer is clear as friggin day. CLEAR. AS. FRIGGIN. DAY

    /rant

    I fixed the error in your argument in bold.

    Without racials it feels shitty to play a specific race, like in wildstar. It was so flavorless and unimmersive, the lack of racial abilities is probably the one thing that put me off about the game, and that's saying something considering the many other poor design choices.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritvs View Post
    I play Horde, playing Horde since i started playing 9 years ago.
    I don't believe that Alliance Racials are op, i actually agree with the "social reasons" explanation.
    The truth is if you want to do pvp alliance is just better because it as a bigger pvp player base.
    It's just snowball effect, and the ball is to big now to be stoped.

    The reason you see so many night elf is because there aren't Human Druids
    But why would all the top end PVP streamers go alliance? It's because there is an advantage there, even if it is a small one. But a number of small advantages, becomes a noticeable advantage.

    Anyone know if there is any horde PVP streamers left?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    But why would all the top end PVP streamers go alliance? It's because there is an advantage there, even if it is a small one. But a number of small advantages, becomes a noticeable advantage.

    Anyone know if there is any horde PVP streamers left?
    Well we can argue that it all started because of human racial.

  15. #15
    Doing PvP? -> Alliance.
    Doing PvE -> Horde.

    That's all.

  16. #16
    Brewmaster Wass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    I just want to open an honest discussion regarding racials and alliance vs horde.

    First off, I wanted to ask a couple questions. What is the rating points for good vs elite? I see a lot of people reference 2200+... is this the first stage you'd consider someone good in PvP? Also, what would be considered elite? 2500 or 2600+?
    Just felt like replying quick to this before jumping into bed,

    Rating gives you an idea about the level of skill, but far from the entirety of it. This is something people @ lower rating (no offense to anyone) often overlook. Your skill level is often directly proportional to your ranking on the ladder (of course you have to take class balance into account for this aswell), and the same ranking can have entirely different ratings in different seasons or even different parts of the same season.

    Rating is always deflated and inflated. You need to look at a percentage of the playerbase to get a somewhat clear view on what's going on at different levels of rating. For instance I can outright tell you that there's a big difference of being 2200 now compared to 2200 last season when it ended.

    People evaluate differently on what they think is good and bad. Personally I'd say that anyone capable of reaching at least Rival (top 10%) has a clue and does something right when it comes to rated arena. Of course this doesn't mean that anyone below that threshhold is instantly bad. Other people could argue that anyone below gladiator level is playing the game wrong, for instance.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wass View Post
    Just felt like replying quick to this before jumping into bed,

    Rating gives you an idea about the level of skill, but far from the entirety of it. This is something people @ lower rating (no offense to anyone) often overlook. Your skill level is often directly proportional to your ranking on the ladder (of course you have to take class balance into account for this aswell), and the same ranking can have entirely different ratings in different seasons or even different parts of the same season.

    Rating is always deflated and inflated. You need to look at a percentage of the playerbase to get a somewhat clear view on what's going on at different levels of rating. For instance I can outright tell you that there's a big difference of being 2200 now compared to 2200 last season when it ended.

    People evaluate differently on what they think is good and bad. Personally I'd say that anyone capable of reaching at least Rival (top 10%) has a clue and does something right when it comes to rated arena. Of course this doesn't mean that anyone below that threshhold is instantly bad. Other people could argue that anyone below gladiator level is playing the game wrong, for instance.
    I hear you on that. For the sake of argument, when it comes to representation, I see people referencing 2200+ the most often. I am trying to find out if there is another floor for good play that is also a good reference point. In my examples I'm using 2200 and 2500, but I'm not sure if 2500 is a good point to reference or not.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Wass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    I hear you on that. For the sake of argument, when it comes to representation, I see people referencing 2200+ the most often. I am trying to find out if there is another floor for good play that is also a good reference point. In my examples I'm using 2200 and 2500, but I'm not sure if 2500 is a good point to reference or not.
    If anything then reference at the 3% and 0,5% cutoff levels (arenamate.net can tell you the up to date rating for these). Rating is just a lazy way to pull facts out of a hat.

  19. #19
    Banned kreebs's Avatar
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    For the past 10 years this game has been dominated by hordes both in pve and pvp. For once Alliance is favored and kids are crying all over.

    Pathetic, at best.

  20. #20
    1) Remove PVP trinkets and human racial (and WoTF/EA while we're at it, the shit versions of EMFH).
    2) Give every class one CC break.
    3) Give Humans, Forsaken and Gnomes some fun non-combat impacting racials to replace them.

    Problem solved.

    P.S. While we're at it, just remove all those silly 1% more secondary stat racials, they're just there because they didn't want to upset everyone by flat out removing DPS racials like they should've.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kreebs View Post
    For the past 10 years this game has been dominated by hordes both in pve and pvp. For once Alliance is favored and kids are crying all over.

    Pathetic, at best.
    PVP is still Horde dominated. They're only looking at Arena, which is a small clique and extremely FOTM-ey (or in the case of the human racial, flavour of the century).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

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