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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    @OP: http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...ling-problems/

    Something to read over in regards to why spirit is a bad stat, including why cheaper spells actually make spirit more attractive and why expensive spells make it less so.
    Stop linking this article. It's outdated and the author basically retracted it.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Stop linking this article. It's outdated and the author basically retracted it.
    Also it has nothing to do with the discussion here. Pretty sick of people who obviously have no clue re: paladin mechanics coming and posting the same drivel that OP has obviously seen at least 10+ times elsewhere, both "spirit is king because everyone says so" and "spirit sucks because somebody says so" camps.

    @ Lucy: I'm still thinking about what to reforge mainly for Lei Shen/Ra-den, not terribly worried about Tortos at this gear level (and with meta gem and H-Horridon's) though if we can get those two this week (or at least next week), I might move to think about ranking/meters.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-11 at 08:32 PM.

  3. #23
    I dumped a ton of spirit for Lei Shen and could stand to lose more. After farm this week I'll drop another 1k or so in favor of mastery.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Stop linking this article. It's outdated and the author basically retracted it.
    The only valid criticism I have seen of it are that the numbers are incredibly simplistic, if you also took the time to read you'd see there are in fact 3 parts and the third is very new and very relevant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-11 at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Also it has nothing to do with the discussion here. Pretty sick of people who obviously have no clue re: paladin mechanics coming and posting the same drivel that OP has obviously seen at least 10+ times elsewhere, both "spirit is king because everyone says so" and "spirit sucks because somebody says so" camps.

    @ Lucy: I'm still thinking about what to reforge mainly for Lei Shen/Ra-den, not terribly worried about Tortos at this gear level (and with meta gem and H-Horridon's) though if we can get those two this week (or at least next week), I might move to think about ranking/meters.
    I linked it because it's the only relevant article I know of which accurately explains the caveats of excessive spirit/mp5 gearing. It's less of a "spirit sucks because somebody said so" and more of a "read this, evaluate the implications of your gearing choices and make an informed decision."
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    The only valid criticism I have seen of it are that the numbers are incredibly simplistic, if you also took the time to read you'd see there are in fact 3 parts and the third is very new and very relevant.
    I have read it. All three parts. It's not even remotely relevant to paladin healing.

    Linking that to guy who's 11/13H in case he doesn't understand stat weighting and why gems =/= food is a little condescending, don't you think?
    Last edited by Lucyrotten; 2013-06-11 at 09:08 PM.

  6. #26
    As someone whose kill H LS running 11,700 spirit I honestly had no real mana problems due to how little you do during the transitions assuming everyone is playing correctly, the only time I ever felt any kind of pressing for mana is when we poorly placed thunderstrucks in the last phase. the Spirit is purely from gearing / 2-3 gems that are hybrids, have been using int food/flask for a while.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    *snip*
    I won't deny that I'm with the crowd who pretty much jumped all over his articles, and still don't necessarily agree with some of the thought processes, but for the purpose of THIS thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamlet
    So what does Spirit do for you? It lets you use your non-cooldown heals more frequently.
    At a very basic level, this is the answer to why holy paladins should stack spirit. It allows you to cast HoPo generating spells in non-ideal circumstances knowing that you will be able to more quickly recover the mana you "wasted" on casting those spells. Along with this, the nature and strength of our mastery makes it even less of a "waste".

    There is still a threshold where stacking additional spirit wouldn't be of much benefit, but there are many factors that influence where that threshold is.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    I have read it. All three parts. It's not even remotely relevant to paladin healing.

    Linking that to guy who's 11/13H in case he doesn't understand stat weighting and why gems =/= food is a little condescending, don't you think?
    Actually I linked it to him because his reasoning is somewhat in line with the author's and I thought he would like to see a little reinforcement for his reasoning, if the latter sentence is any indication of what you've taken away from those posts then it probably explains why you don't think it's relevant.
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Actually I linked it to him because his reasoning is somewhat in line with the author's and I thought he would like to see a little reinforcement for his reasoning, if the latter sentence is any indication of what you've taken away from those posts then it probably explains why you don't think it's relevant.
    It's not relevant because being able to use any heal big or small but never being able recover enough mana to cast past the first two minutes of the fight IS a mana issue. The current paladin healing style has a ton of overhealing baked in so more int is useless to us. A lot of what we're doing is building/maintaining mastery shields on the raid so we're always casting always casting always casting and that requires a pretty decent chunk of regen to maintain. Adding more int does increase the size of the shield but mastery scaling increases it more and spirit supports the spam healing playstyle. That's why it's irrevelvant.

    At a certain threshold that is personal tolerance and includes factors like the Horridon trinket and the legendary meta spirit loses value to MASTERY not to intellect.

    McBubble did an excellent job of putting together some conversion numbers and asked other for their opinion about converting spirit to mastery. The value of spirit as a stat was never questioned. It's really hard to convert the lost regen directly to mastery shields as a number since it really depends on how the spirit is spent to build the more powerful shields to begin with.

    I gave my personal opinion about playing the class in similar content and you gave an outdated and oft-quoted article. So, yeah, standing by my opinion that it's irrelevant to the current conversation.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sellinz View Post
    As someone whose kill H LS running 11,700 spirit I honestly had no real mana problems due to how little you do during the transitions assuming everyone is playing correctly, the only time I ever felt any kind of pressing for mana is when we poorly placed thunderstrucks in the last phase. the Spirit is purely from gearing / 2-3 gems that are hybrids, have been using int food/flask for a while.
    Just wondering what kind of trinkets you're using. Is this spirit level pretty viable for any heroic fight you've done or just specifically Lei Shen due to pretty much going into last phase with full mana?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    Just wondering what kind of trinkets you're using. Is this spirit level pretty viable for any heroic fight you've done or just specifically Lei Shen due to pretty much going into last phase with full mana?

    I run with it on every fight, I use the heroic double upgraded Spirits of the Sun and a normal TF Horridons last gasp, the disc priest I heal with is absolutely god tier so that helps too. the only fight I really have any mana problems on would maybe be Maegaera and thats due to 2 healing it.

  12. #32
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    The only valid criticism I have seen of it are that the numbers are incredibly simplistic, if you also took the time to read you'd see there are in fact 3 parts and the third is very new and very relevant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-11 at 09:49 PM ----------



    I linked it because it's the only relevant article I know of which accurately explains the caveats of excessive spirit/mp5 gearing. It's less of a "spirit sucks because somebody said so" and more of a "read this, evaluate the implications of your gearing choices and make an informed decision."
    Actually no he made a more recent post in regards to spirit that you would be better off linking.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Actually no he made a more recent post in regards to spirit that you would be better off linking.
    Which is linked in the very first paragraph... and not to mention only goes onto further clarify and solidify the points he made in part 2.
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  14. #34
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    I dropped from 15k spirit to 11k spirit, 41% mastery (buffed), and 25% haste (buffed) and I am noticing no drop off from pre 5.3.

    I'm finding that as long as I can get into melee range at times and fire off some CSs, I have zero mana troubles and can still keep up throughput.

    Spirit stacking is nice, but I think now it may not be the "best" route (no numbers, just experience).

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    I'm finding that as long as I can get into melee range at times and fire off some CSs, I have zero mana troubles and can still keep up throughput.
    Right, a lot the discussion here is fight-specific, another reason I was taking slams at people (who, again, seem to have no clue how the class works) coming in here giving "expert" opinions on generalized, easy facts. Fights that have burst/downtime versus constant phases mean different mana profiles (so to speak). Can versus can't melee makes a big difference (*cough* monk players).

    I'm still going to have to go with my spirit stacking on fights where I cannot/should not be in melee range for SoI (at least for progression, now many of those fights probably don't really matter with item upgrades), but Lei Shen and Ra-den both allow a lot of melee.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-12 at 12:36 AM.

  16. #36
    I don't think ranks are particularly powerful at measuring healer performance, but seeing as the argument here seems to be that you can drop spirit for mastery and gain throughput, I'd just like to throw my hat into the ring and say that I have multiple top 10 world ranks on heroic ToT fights and I am all about spirit.

    The more regen you have, the more you can afford to cast Holy Radiance/Divine Light when it will be overhealing. More holy power = more EFs. The extra EFs (as well as the overhealing from more HR/DLs) translate to a lot more illuminated healing (which is what you're trying to increase by going for more mastery anyway).

    Until I get to a point where it is mana neutral to spam HS/HR/DL and spend my holy power, I can't imagine shying away from spirit. Obviously it works for some people and there's always going to be leniency in how well you have to perform the longer a tier goes on, but I won't be dropping any spirit until late next tier, if at all (unless blizzard change us somehow).
    Last edited by PalawinFC; 2013-06-12 at 01:33 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by PalawinFC View Post
    I don't think ranks are particularly powerful at measuring healer performance, but seeing as the argument here seems to be that you can drop spirit for mastery and gain throughput, I'd just like to throw my hat into the ring and say that I have multiple top 10 world ranks on heroic ToT fights and I am all about spirit.

    The more regen you have, the more you can afford to cast Holy Radiance/Divine Light when it will be overhealing. More holy power = more EFs. The extra EFs (as well as the overhealing from more HR/DLs) translate to a lot more illuminated healing (which is what you're trying to increase by going for more mastery anyway).

    Until I get to a point where it is mana neutral to spam HS/HR/DL and spend my holy power, I can't imagine shying away from spirit. Obviously it works for some people and there's always going to be leniency in how well you have to perform the longer a tier goes on, but I won't be dropping any spirit until late next tier, if at all (unless blizzard change us somehow).
    This is basically how I feel. I'm at 20k raid buffed spirit with a H TF Horridons and a 2/2 H Tsulong trinket. We're on 25 H Lei Shen progression atm so people are making a lot of mistakes, the spirit is invaluable to cover for them imo.

  18. #38
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmanmao View Post
    This is basically how I feel. I'm at 20k raid buffed spirit with a H TF Horridons and a 2/2 H Tsulong trinket. We're on 25 H Lei Shen progression atm so people are making a lot of mistakes, the spirit is invaluable to cover for them imo.

    There becomes a point where you cannot heal enough to use your mana, and if you are ending fights with a lot of mana left over then you have too much spirit. I do 25m heroic as well and I had 16800k spirit and it was too much. I would spam holy radiance between shocks and eternal flame the entire fight and mana would not get lower at the end of fight. There are only so many heals you can get out with as little haste as we have. Also most of the times if mistakes happen that extra spirit will not help your raid, especially not as much spirit as you are saying.

    And as for PalawinFC, you said it yourself ranks aren't a big indicator. It can also be a big indicator of what your cohealers are not doing, boosting, etc. And why would you want it to be mana neutral to gain holy power? You basically then are not using mana and are wasting stats for regen you aren't using.

  19. #39
    For heroic progression, spirit.

    For heroic farm content, i guess its do whatever you want because you and your entire raid is heroic-equipped anyway so it probably wont matter that much.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    There becomes a point where you cannot heal enough to use your mana, and if you are ending fights with a lot of mana left over then you have too much spirit. I do 25m heroic as well and I had 16800k spirit and it was too much. I would spam holy radiance between shocks and eternal flame the entire fight and mana would not get lower at the end of fight. There are only so many heals you can get out with as little haste as we have. Also most of the times if mistakes happen that extra spirit will not help your raid, especially not as much spirit as you are saying.

    And as for PalawinFC, you said it yourself ranks aren't a big indicator. It can also be a big indicator of what your cohealers are not doing, boosting, etc. And why would you want it to be mana neutral to gain holy power? You basically then are not using mana and are wasting stats for regen you aren't using.
    I'm glad we've had some positive and constructive thoughts on this subject. Personally, I'm very happy with 16k spirit.

    It looks like every 1000 spirit gives us ~34,000 mana every 5 minutes (it's a linear calculation).
    If I increased my spirit to 20k, I'd gain ~136k mana every 5 minutes. That's 4 holy radiance + 4 holy shocks every 5 minutes. What I'm trying to weigh: If I'm fine with 16k spirit, and put that 4k into mastery, how does that break out?
    Think about it this way:
    Say we're on a 5 minute fight, 25m and everyone is clumped. Those 4 HR + 4 HS: Let's assume the HR heals for 100k (with 15k going to the beacon). Then you HS for 100k, with a 4 piece daybreak proc, that's 225k. so you're looking at 115 + 325k = 440k healing. That 440k, four times =1.76 million healing over 5 minutes. *edit* You also gain 8 holy power. Let's say 3 Word of Glory's for 100k each. 300k. Glyphed with Protector and Beacon = 510k. 2.27 million healing over 5 minutes.

    Now, if you were to put those 4k points into mastery, you'd get ~8.3 mastery.
    Say on the same 5 minute fight, that you heal for ...meh 80k hps, which becomes 24,000,000 million healing. The 8.3 mastery puts you at 25,992,000. You've then gained 1.99 million healing.
    I've taken the best of both worlds in the 2 examples above...but unless my math's wrong (which could very well be), then it's such a close line between the two (2.26 mil vs 1.99 mil)...if you're not comfortable with your mana at the end of a fight...go with mana.

    Edit: Say you're healing for 100k HPS on a fight, then the 2nd example (mastery build) gives you 2.49 million healing, which is a sheer throughput winner.
    Reason for the edit: on most fights, I personally range from 80-90k effective HPS. On cheeseball 'magera' type fights, I range 100-120k hps.
    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-06-17 at 07:01 PM.

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