Guardian Lacerate Detailed Question

[Seelean]

Hello all Seelean here again,

I push unreal DMG as a bear and loving it, ranked in top 150 several times on various FoT normal mode kills

My question pertains to Lacerate Mechanics, I was wondering if anyone out there has calculated Lacerate DoT effects, and if so can you share?

Now thinking of an Afflicition Warlock their dots scale with your stats as they are applied to the target (like a screen shot of stats, so when trinkets proc, jade spirit, etc proc you want to immediately refresh your Dots and let them run their full course and reset Agony right before drops off).

That being said Lacerate stacks 3x and adds a DoT effect to your current target. So if you have Rentaki's trinket, Danicng Steel, and Bad juju proc is it valuable to refresh dot 1x or 3x and let run its corse, or do you keep applying your Lacerates as you can fit them in (Mangle takes priority) to stack the 3x DMG or just refresh and stop until Lacerate is about to fall off?

I would like to push even bigger numbers in raid I'm averaging 120-150k DPS on average (rankings: Jin-Rokh top 75 with 147k DPS, Jin-Kin top 75 with 127k DPS) if anyone wants macro tips rotation etc post here and I will share my rotation/macros etc to push more DMG while keeping survivability up



Thanks in advance for the detailed knowledge on Lacerate Mechanics


Seelean
526 ai Troll Druid
Reign US-Llane
Now moved to
Oligarchy US- Zul'Jin

[Raugnaut]

After doing a small bit of testing, fully buffed common lacerate ticks (Dancing Steel+10 stacks Renataki) deal about 68% of a nonbuffed Lacerate application. Lacerate dot recalculates with each initial application. Lacerate ticks once every 3 seconds. Swipe deals about 46% of the damage of Lacerate initial application. Not counting RNG berserk procs, it would probably turn out to be about a 2.7% dps increase.

However, counting in berserk procs, it would be a dps LOSS to not use Lacerate whenever possible. Mangle is the largest contributor to guardian damage, so the more mangles you deal, the more dps youll have. Fully buffed lacerate ticks do NOT deal enough damage over time to beat out a possible mangle damage (which deals roughly 4x the amount

So, essentially, lets say that you DO get a fully buffed Lacerate application off. You'll still want to use Lacerate over everything but Mangle.

Of course, you still want to try to get a fully buffed Thrash off and not refresh until you no longer clip it.

So, essentially, potential missed mangles lead to a dps loss of swapping to a swipe instead of lacerate during high-agility lacerate ticks.

[Seelean]

After doing a small bit of testing, fully buffed common lacerate ticks (Dancing Steel+10 stacks Renataki) deal about 68% of a nonbuffed Lacerate application. Lacerate dot recalculates with each initial application. Lacerate ticks once every 3 seconds. Swipe deals about 46% of the damage of Lacerate initial application. Not counting RNG berserk procs, it would probably turn out to be about a 2.7% dps increase.

However, counting in berserk procs, it would be a dps LOSS to not use Lacerate whenever possible. Mangle is the largest contributor to guardian damage, so the more mangles you deal, the more dps youll have. Fully buffed lacerate ticks do NOT deal enough damage over time to beat out a possible mangle damage (which deals roughly 4x the amount

So, essentially, lets say that you DO get a fully buffed Lacerate application off. You'll still want to use Lacerate over everything but Mangle.

Of course, you still want to try to get a fully buffed Thrash off and not refresh until you no longer clip it.

So, essentially, potential missed mangles lead to a dps loss of swapping to a swipe instead of lacerate during high-agility lacerate ticks.

Yeah thats essentially what doing now (hince the multiple top 150 rankings, most in top 75, I was just curious if peeps had actual #s, btw your "berserk procs" are confusing because there is no berserk proc it's a CD.


Thanks for looking into this a bit more,

Seelean

[Raugnaut]

Yeah thats essentially what doing now (hince the multiple top 150 rankings, most in top 75, I was just curious if peeps had actual #s, btw your "berserk procs" are confusing because there is no berserk proc it's a CD.


Thanks for looking into this a bit more,

Seelean

Berserk Procs are pretty much mangle procs. Essentially, theres 2 berserks- the 3 min CD allowing for mangle spam, and also the mangle-CD reset from using Lacerate, Thrash, and FF. Both are known as berserk in your spellbook/combat log.

[Trubo]

Berserk Procs are pretty much mangle procs. Essentially, theres 2 berserks- the 3 min CD allowing for mangle spam, and also the mangle-CD reset from using Lacerate, Thrash, and FF. Both are known as berserk in your spellbook/combat log.

What's interesting to note is that the Berserk indicating refreshed Mangle no longer has an icon/buff and I can't for the life of me find it in the spellbook. Only thing that hints at it would be that Lacerate, Thrash and Feral Fire have a 25% chance to end the cd on Mangle.

[Arielle]

Essentially what's already been said. You don't want to pass up using Lacerate just to maintain the snapshot because anything you would replace it with (other than Mangle) is essentially a net DPS loss.

Edit: However, you DO need to make sure it doesn't fall off whenever possible.

[Viromand]

Yeah thats essentially what doing now (hince the multiple top 150 rankings, most in top 75, I was just curious if peeps had actual #s, btw your "berserk procs" are confusing because there is no berserk proc it's a CD.

Its called berserk proc cause in cata it was the passive from berserk. Now they put it in the tooltips so its easier for new players.

[Seelean]

What's interesting to note is that the Berserk indicating refreshed Mangle no longer has an icon/buff and I can't for the life of me find it in the spellbook. Only thing that hints at it would be that Lacerate, Thrash and Feral Fire have a 25% chance to end the cd on Mangle.

I don't know if your having in-game issues tracking when your Mangles proc or not, but here are some addons that may help:

SpellFlash
Mik'sScrollingBattleText
Classic Auras

Also, another important note, I mainly use Maul on CD for added DPS by macroing /cast Maul after FF, Lacerate, Thrash; I DO NOT have it macro'd with Mangle, because it interfered with showing my procs.

As Guardian Druids we should strive for a 4-5 sec cast time for our Mangles (ie: if the encounter has last 400-500seconds you should have cast at least 100 Mangles during the fight, also as someone stated earlier about not letting Lacerate fall off, I strive to keep 90-95%uptime for both (without clipping).

These are just my goals when dosing as a bear what are some of your goals?

Seelean
New Bear tank on Zul'Jin server xfer from Llane

[Tarazet]

I don't know if your having in-game issues tracking when your Mangles proc or not, but here are some addons that may help:

SpellFlash
Mik'sScrollingBattleText
Classic Auras

Also, another important note, I mainly use Maul on CD for added DPS by macroing /cast Maul after FF, Lacerate, Thrash; I DO NOT have it macro'd with Mangle, because it interfered with showing my procs.

As Guardian Druids we should strive for a 4-5 sec cast time for our Mangles (ie: if the encounter has last 400-500seconds you should have cast at least 100 Mangles during the fight, also as someone stated earlier about not letting Lacerate fall off, I strive to keep 90-95%uptime for both (without clipping).

These are just my goals when dosing as a bear what are some of your goals?

Seelean
New Bear tank on Zul'Jin server xfer from Llane

For one thing, I prepot, HotW, Berserk and Berserking and go completely bonkers in Cat Form. I get as high as 425K crits from Ferocious Bite, spam Mangle on every GCD, and keep my bleeds up (not including Thrash in this case). Needless to say, that opening contributes significantly to my DPS. I've seen spikes up to 450k DPS. Almost every fight in ToT has a window that allows for this; the exceptions are Jin'rokh (tank swaps are too fast) and Megaera (since you're always tanking, and the Rampages are short). In those cases I will use Nature's Vigil instead, during the periods when I am tanking for at least 20 seconds. On Megaera, I only use it if I'm tanking our kill target, because I'm a good bear and don't just want to pad my numbers.

On our last Consorts kill yesterday, I spent only 80% of the encounter in Bear Form. Pretty much that whole time, both Lacerate and Thrash were up. The rest of the time, it was Rip and Rake.

[jasonleekungfu]

Both instant damage and DoT part of Lacerate scales with AP. For any ability scales with AP I wouldn't think it matters that much to "keep" as of a real DoT dps (lock/kitty/unholy dk etc), cuz most of tank's dps comes from vengeance. That little bit theoretical dps increase would be even smaller than vengeance uncertainty, which mathematically isn't really a difference. You could try to keep it a bit when you had a huge amount of AP drop, like when the other tank taunt off. But won't be too long.

[Trubo]

I don't know if your having in-game issues tracking when your Mangles proc or not, but here are some addons that may help:
snip

Thanks for the addon suggestions but I'm not losing track of Mangle procs. I might just be thinking of Tooth & Claw but I could have sworn that back in Cata the procced Mangle displayed a buff icon like that of the three minute cooldown Berserk but with a different tooltip. As Viromand said the tooltip used to be included with Berserk as a passive of having the ability but that was changed with MoP and just having Lacerate, Thrash and Faerie Fire mention that they can proc Mangle.

[Arielle]

High DPS as a Guardian is almost 100% about execution of the standard rotation and timing of HotW usage.

[exochaft]

High DPS as a Guardian is almost 100% about execution of the standard rotation and timing of HotW usage.

I'd say it's more likely 110% about execution/timing of abilities in an encounter. I've tried accounting for trinket procs as Guardian for DPS, but in the end when I decided to use active abilities and how I executed the encounters made a much larger difference (and it should be re-iterated that going for big numbers doesn't always coincide with survival/shortening a fight). In general, if you line up your CDs at optimal times, you'll get more bang for your buck. Just to throw out an example, heroic Iron Qon: the difference between having Berserk/Incarnation/NV available when all the dogs and boss are down in the final phase and not having them available is night and day. A simple rule is that lining up CDs when you have good Vengeance will beat out a trinket proc, especially when it comes to bleeds.

[Tarazet]

I'd say it's more likely 110% about execution/timing of abilities in an encounter. I've tried accounting for trinket procs as Guardian for DPS, but in the end when I decided to use active abilities and how I executed the encounters made a much larger difference (and it should be re-iterated that going for big numbers doesn't always coincide with survival/shortening a fight). In general, if you line up your CDs at optimal times, you'll get more bang for your buck. Just to throw out an example, heroic Iron Qon: the difference between having Berserk/Incarnation/NV available when all the dogs and boss are down in the final phase and not having them available is night and day. A simple rule is that lining up CDs when you have good Vengeance will beat out a trinket proc, especially when it comes to bleeds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Mangle damage is affected by Vengeance. It's a percentage of weapon damage, so a Mangle hit for 75K will still be 75K with 300K Vengeance. All your other abilities will scale with Vengeance, but not Mangle. You still want to use Berserk and Incarnation while tanking for Rage generation, and Mangle is still a monster in terms of DPS, but to maximize bleed damage you want to apply Thrash and Lacerate with high Vengeance and let them tick.

[Viromand]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Mangle damage is affected by Vengeance. It's a percentage of weapon damage, so a Mangle hit for 75K will still be 75K with 300K Vengeance. All your other abilities will scale with Vengeance, but not Mangle. You still want to use Berserk and Incarnation while tanking for Rage generation, and Mangle is still a monster in terms of DPS, but to maximize bleed damage you want to apply Thrash and Lacerate with high Vengeance and let them tick.

Vengeance is AP, Ap raises are weapon dmg and mangel is %weapon dmg.

What the hell are you using? Mangel and FF only and wait for mangel to get rdy again?

the only dot thats worthy of reapplying with higher vengeance and letting tick is thrash but you spam lacerate everytime yiou have thrasdot up ,FF on cd and Mangel on cd.

you use mangle-lacerate-FF/thrash-lacerate-mangle if mangle procs you always use it first than start over again. use FF if your thrash has more than 6 seconds left or you get a huge chunk of vengeance or FF is on cd due to mangle proc.

Even if your dot ticks 20% stronger missing out on base lacerate dmg and possible mangle proccs makes you lose more dps.

[Tarazet]

Vengeance is AP, Ap raises are weapon dmg and mangel is %weapon dmg.

What the hell are you using? Mangel and FF only and wait for mangel to get rdy again?

My point was more about maintaining bleeds during Incarnation, which has you spamming Mangle repeatedly for maximum Rage/DPS. I agree that when it's not active, the high initial damage from Lacerate means it should be used on cooldown.

[Arielle]

My point was more about maintaining bleeds during Incarnation, which has you spamming Mangle repeatedly for maximum Rage/DPS. I agree that when it's not active, the high initial damage from Lacerate means it should be used on cooldown.

Assuming Mangle isn't available, Thrash is currently up, and SA is currently on the target, yes. In reality that distinction almost never matters, but it does exist.