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  1. #1

    Ji Kun Heroic help & tank questions

    Hello Community
    sorry about the grammar mistakes in my following post. English is my second language.

    So let's get to the point ( my tank questions are far )

    We tried Ji-Kun heroic 2 nights ago and will do it again next sunday. As a raid leader, I followed Fatboss guide.. but mehhh I didn't know they were completly out of date. So after a few reajustement, we started to progress slowly. Our composition was 3 healers - 2 tanks - 5 dps.

    ( our group is mostly around 520ilvl + with a lot of 2/4 set bonuses)
    1st Question. Should we do it with 2 healers or 3. I saw some people arguing it easier with 2 healers and you will only have maximum 9 nest if your dps are good.(which is our case). Would it be way more easier. And at the 9th nest if the boss is around 30% we should burn him down after a feed young buff.

    2nd question. if we go 3 healer, we should have around 11-12 nest. So my composition would be.

    g1 - 3 dps.
    g2 - 1 tank, 2 dps, 1 healer

    and the nest rotation would be.
    1 = g1
    2 = g2
    3 = g1
    4 = g2
    5 = g1
    6 = g1
    7 = g1
    8 = g2
    *9 = g1
    *10 = g2
    11 = g1
    12 = g2 ( if required )
    * both group is going

    About my tank concern.
    We have a paladin and a monk. Our monk had a few hints from one of the best monk in Duality on our server (Zul'jin). So after a few reforge and gemming, hes now pulling a lot of dps(>120k most of the fight and sometime way more) while in normal 10 and he's still really easy to heal.

    So our paladin tank decided to go with the haste build to try to catch up dps and maintain aggro. The main problem was: even if our paladin taunted any target the monk regain aggro immediatly because of his crit% build.

    However, my main concern is: Can tanks afford to sacrifice survivability vs dps increase in 10 mans group.
    In 25 man, I understand you can since you have 6-7 healers. But in 10 man HEROIC, I'm wondering if it's a good decision.

    Thx for your help

  2. #2
    Can't answer about the fight itself, but I can answer about the tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylviana View Post
    About my tank concern.
    We have a paladin and a monk. Our monk had a few hints from one of the best monk in Duality on our server (Zul'jin). So after a few reforge and gemming, hes now pulling a lot of dps(>120k most of the fight and sometime way more) while in normal 10 and he's still really easy to heal.

    So our paladin tank decided to go with the haste build to try to catch up dps and maintain aggro. The main problem was: even if our paladin taunted any target the monk regain aggro immediatly because of his crit% build.

    However, my main concern is: Can tanks afford to sacrifice survivability vs dps increase in 10 mans group.
    In 25 man, I understand you can since you have 6-7 healers. But in 10 man HEROIC, I'm wondering if it's a good decision.

    Thx for your help
    It's kind of a theme with Monks... We find it really easy to pull threat back after a tank swap. Honestly, the Monk needs to learn some control. He needs to stop attacking entirely for a few seconds, give the Paladin time to pull ahead, then start again.

    To help, the Paladin needs to figure out how to do as much threat as possible. It sounds like he's making steps in the right direction, which is good. But yeah, the Monk needs to learn some control.

    As for sacrificing survivability for DPS: well as you said yourself, the monk is still easy to heal, so I imagine he can. It's something that every tank needs to figure out the balance for.

    That said, a Monk going full crit isn't necessarily a DPS build. It's actually also one of the best ways we have to reduce the damage we take. The only potential issue is burst damage; if the Monk starts dying to that then they'll need more stam/mastery, but honestly they shouldn't need to gear for those stats in 10 mans, even in heroic mode.

    So yeah, the Monk going full crit is doing it right.

  3. #3
    Awesome, this is what I tough. Now hes pretty much idle after each of the paladin taunt for a few sec! Which work flawlessly. Our paladin just need 2-3 sec max and then he have enough aggro.

    I was wondering because on Ji -Kun Heroic, we had some problem to manage the infected Talon debuff(which is applied each time it hit the tank). His health was dropping too fast while he was going to his nest. So our healer didnt had time to heal him. However, we will ajust our timings and cooldown.
    Last edited by Evolution69; 2013-05-30 at 02:56 PM.

  4. #4
    Paladin haste build is the best one u can get. I usually overagro with my paladin on my warrior,hence i salvation spam myself as i do not want to stop hitting, but if i dont have salvation i do pick my nose, there is no other way. About nature dot, on the tank flying to a nest, well you have a paladin. Paladins have hand of purity. It reduces dot dmg.DERP! Have your paladin use his spells.

    You do nests good, so you should kill it soon. About your concerns that tanks going "DPS" is not good. Yes its the best decision, and they should keep going. Tank surviving is based on their active mitigation, you dont stack avoidance anymore and just.. stand and get hit, and .. do nothing.Maybe warriors do to some extend, but they are weirdos!

  5. #5
    Theres a lot of questions in there, I'll try to address them as best I can.

    1) A paladin going for a haste build isn't a surviviability decrease, its an increase. Haste directly affects how many holy power he can generate and using these increases his survivability. The added bonus is more dps.
    2) 2 or 3 heals is a matter of personal preference. I prefer to 2 heal it since the main reason for wipes is people cocking up the nests or taking off during a quills. Doing only 8/9 nests gives people less opportunities to do stupid things. Ofc this is somewhat comp dependant. A disc priest or a holoy pala can easily heal quills on the platform alone but a resto dru has a harder time for instance.
    3) A pala can bubble / HoP off the infected talon debuff or use hand of purity. Not sure what monks can do but you can't take full ticks as you move to a platform or you will die. Blow a cooldown.

  6. #6
    Awesome. Thx for the hints/tips. This is exactly what we planned to do (using Hand of purity). I as a paladin didn't use it at first because I didnt have it macro'ed or even binded. Hehe. But,we have 3 pally so It shouldnt be a problem.

    As for the tank. I was sure at 99% they had it right, but I wanted a confirmation!

    Thx a bunch guys! Should be an easy kill next sunday.

  7. #7
    Don't know if you do this but send a healer or additional DPS down on at least the first nest to take advantage of the feather buff, they can use the 3 stacks to avoid downdraft or intercept 3 feeds.

    Also I don't remember exactly which platforms quills generally happens during but I'm guessing that if they happen while a DPS team is flying they have self defensive and healing cool downs covered.

    Anyways my team has just started working on it and we are using the fat boss guide so I have been looking around for info like this to find advantages to doing it differently. One question is about only sending 3 people (3 DPS in your example) to lower platforms and not utilizing the 4th feather, is it to simplify things or that the feather just isn't enough of an advantage to take someone off the boss. I would think sending an additional person on at least 1 and 3 to let them pick up a feather to intercept 3 feeds may be a good idea but then again I'm just starting the encounter so I don't know.

    Thanks for any info on these questions and good luck.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylviana View Post
    However, my main concern is: Can tanks afford to sacrifice survivability vs dps increase in 10 mans group.
    In 25 man, I understand you can since you have 6-7 healers. But in 10 man HEROIC, I'm wondering if it's a good decision.

    Thx for your help
    If this question is in reference to your paladin reforging for haste, then understand that the haste build is not sacrificing survivability at all. Haste builds provide higher ShoR uptime and more Seal of Insight procs. These two things lead to increased survivability, not decreased. Of course, this only works if the paladin in question knows how to properly perform their rotation. A paladin with a haste build that isn't intimately familiar with their rotation will see a decrease in survivability.

    If your question was in reference to the monk, then I cannot comment.

  9. #9
    Monk could, you know, stop attacking. Pulling off of another tank that has no vengeance is a trivial feat.

  10. #10
    Tell him to make a remove vengeance buff macro for when you taunt. That way he doesn't have to stop attacking and he can continue to keep putting out his Black Ox Statue shields. That's what I had to do with our Warrior tank. I found myself pulling threat by auto attacking but I didn't wanna be useless for 10 seconds either.

  11. #11
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    Anyways my team has just started working on it and we are using the fat boss guide so I have been looking around for info like this to find advantages to doing it differently. One question is about only sending 3 people (3 DPS in your example) to lower platforms and not utilizing the 4th feather, is it to simplify things or that the feather just isn't enough of an advantage to take someone off the boss. I would think sending an additional person on at least 1 and 3 to let them pick up a feather to intercept 3 feeds may be a good idea but then again I'm just starting the encounter so I don't know.
    Well. You will have only 1 DPS+1 healer+1 tank on boss's platform. On top of that, it is good (from my personal opinion) that both of your tanks have feathers. Which means you have choice of sending the DPS (or healer.. (though don't see much point in sending a healer)) on boss's platform either on 1st or 3rd nest. Not 2 nests. Rest of the people already have their feathers.
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    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    Tell him to make a remove vengeance buff macro for when you taunt. That way he doesn't have to stop attacking and he can continue to keep putting out his Black Ox Statue shields. That's what I had to do with our Warrior tank. I found myself pulling threat by auto attacking but I didn't wanna be useless for 10 seconds either.
    Or simply salv him?

  13. #13
    If you run with a paladin and monk you will need three healers the dot stacks get way too high.

    IF you ahve a monk heal use him on plattforms do to dps too, we use

    first nest tankmonk plus normal group (melee with ele and heal monk/druid(with hotw))

    second nest we use myself as a guardian druid specced NV, 2 dps and either a balancedruid or spriests. We kill all of them stay on the plattform till after the aoe and fly right before feeding is cast.

    After that group 1 takes all the nest, and the other tank our monk goes up to nest 4 to kill the guardianbird.

    after that our monk stay on bossplattform for the rest of the fight and myself as a druid take last too guardians. Wait for nest 13 send 4 dps down there to get feathers and nuke boss (if you ahve enough dps like we have you will not need that).

    And tank should try get the feed buff too you can fly up even while tanking.

    The way we soak talons rake

    Tanknr1 1 stack (goes down to second nest after that)
    Tanknr2 takes 3 goes up to 4 nest.
    after that taunt every two stacks.

    This way you will only need one group doing the nest except for the double nests. All the dps on plattforms get feathers.

    We found it to be very confusing while learnign the fight with two seperate groups sometimes. And we achieved higher dps with this strat. But take three healers it makes the fight alot easier. Either on plattform or nests.

    And one tank tip: If both tanks are on the plattform and talon rake is not beeing casts the next few seconds tank swap with taunt to let dotstack run out and to have vengeance on both tanks. It will increase your dmg alot.

    Our nest group in detail.

    Group 1 (DK ele and a healer monk is the best here)
    Group 2 (guardian 2 dps and sp)

    Nest 1: grp1 with monktank
    nest 2: grp2
    nest 3: grp1
    nest 4: grp 1 with monktank
    nest 5: gr1
    nest 6: gr1
    nest 7: gr1(you could send the monktank again to get feathers)
    nest 8: gr2
    nest 9/10: grp1 bottom one grp2 without guardiandruid top one.
    nest 11: grp 1
    nest 12 grp1 with guardiandruid
    nest 13: you 4 best dps.

    after that nuke boss.

    Now with that you tanks will never be on the plattform until nest 5. And aggro should not be a prolbme after that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    Tell him to make a remove vengeance buff macro for when you taunt. That way he doesn't have to stop attacking and he can continue to keep putting out his Black Ox Statue shields. That's what I had to do with our Warrior tank. I found myself pulling threat by auto attacking but I didn't wanna be useless for 10 seconds either.
    You should not have to do that. Start of the fight its a bit tricky but still you will taunt after a talonrake most of the time and the dps you lose when removing vengeance buff is way to much, salvation is a good idea but tank dmg is really high on both tanks on jikun should do atleast 120-150k dps on that fight depends on how good they are with keeping vengeance up.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-31 at 09:34 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Or simply salv him?

    Either or. No Paladin in my group so we don't have the luxury of a salv

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    Either or. No Paladin in my group so we don't have the luxury of a salv
    Do you tank with a Warrior or DK? In my experience if you're tanking with a good paladin or druid (especially after they fixed their growl vengeance transfer) just stopping auto attack for 3 seconds then slowly rebuilding Chi with Jab is enough to let them keep the lead.

    Also, a better option than removing vengeance if you are still having issues is to remove your Tiger Power buff. It's better to reduce your DPS in a way you can easily re-establish than to completely gimp both your dps and healing until the next tank swap by taking off your vengence.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Or simply salv him?
    With the amount of vengeance generated on Ji-Kun, a tank with Salvation is still likely to pull aggro as soon as salvation fades (at least early in the fight).

    Remember: Salvation no longer involves a permanent threat reduction. Instead, it temporarily removes your threat for the duration of the buff. You will continue to maintain high vengeance until vengeance falls off (which, on Ji-Kun, might not happen). I know that on Jin'rohk, for instance, I have to chain two salvs on myself after my co-tank taunts at the start of the fight (I pull, co-tank taunts at the swap, I double-salv) if I don't want to pull aggro back. The only reason the second salv really works in this situation is because it lasts long enough for the boss to throw the tank, at which point I'm going to get aggro back anyway.

    Ji-Kun may be slightly different, especially since the boss puts out a ton of damage on the tank, but it's still something you have to consider.

    So, really, it all depends on how far into the fight you are. If it's near the start of the fight, a salv won't necessarily do the trick.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    With the amount of vengeance generated on Ji-Kun, a tank with Salvation is still likely to pull aggro as soon as salvation fades (at least early in the fight).

    Remember: Salvation no longer involves a permanent threat reduction. Instead, it temporarily removes your threat for the duration of the buff. You will continue to maintain high vengeance until vengeance falls off (which, on Ji-Kun, might not happen). I know that on Jin'rohk, for instance, I have to chain two salvs on myself after my co-tank taunts at the start of the fight (I pull, co-tank taunts at the swap, I double-salv) if I don't want to pull aggro back. The only reason the second salv really works in this situation is because it lasts long enough for the boss to throw the tank, at which point I'm going to get aggro back anyway.

    Ji-Kun may be slightly different, especially since the boss puts out a ton of damage on the tank, but it's still something you have to consider.

    So, really, it all depends on how far into the fight you are. If it's near the start of the fight, a salv won't necessarily do the trick.
    All the salv does is allow the other tank to build vengeance/damage/threat for 10 secs, while the old tanks vengeance slowly bleeds off over the 10 seconds. If he's pulling after that there's likely a problem with the tanks. (except maybe vs monk aoe threat) - At least for us with monk+dk tank it works out like that. Having to double salv anyone is pretty rare. (and i'll probably get pissed off and simply bop them at that point anyway )

  18. #18
    Paladin haste build and mink crit build is the way to go. The nest. Play it safe don't burn at 30 20% burn at 15% save hero for the end with food buff he melts almost instantly. 2 healing better choice. If you are having DPS issues the DPS aren't getting the nutrient buff

  19. #19
    Jesus, its a tank swop, they happen all the time, its nothing fancy. All you need to know as the person with max vengeance is to back off a bit if you start to pull threat back. All this discussion about something so basic for a heroic boss. It's not rocket science.

  20. #20
    Awesome. Thx a bunch. We will do it with 2 healers this sunday. We have 3 paladin so Hand of Purity will be enough.

    As for the tank, thx for your input. I knew they were right. They were only wondering if the "spike" dmg was easier to heal with the common build. But it never was a problem so I guess their rotation are fine. And our monk now just stay idle a few sec after a taunt. No biggie. I just dunno why with so much high dmg numbers now, blizzard doesn't allow taunt to get the amount of threat from your higher player + 20%.

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