1. #2001
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    I think they couldn't apply the buffs only to the DoTs, it would have make multidotting just too strong, even with a nerf to SB:SS.
    The damage of Haunt is kinda high though, in fights where you can soul drain dying adds to get 4 shards back, you will be able to spam Haunts during half the fight...
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  2. #2002
    The reason they didn't do it that way is because buffing dots directly caused problems in multi-dotting encounters and in PvP. That's basically why Affliction was so good, and because it was good, explains a good part of why it was enjoyable. People like being overpowered themselves, but they hate Fire Mages.

  3. #2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The reason they didn't do it that way is because buffing dots directly caused problems in multi-dotting encounters and in PvP. That's basically why Affliction was so good, and because it was good, explains a good part of why it was enjoyable. People like being overpowered themselves, but they hate Fire Mages.
    I call bullshit on that. Have you actually seen some combatlogs or damage meters of multi target encounters in ToT recently? These are the only fights where Affliction warlocks are really topping the meters. And why? Because our dots are so strong? I doubt it. It is the combination of instant application with powerful buffs and an excess amount of Soul Shards that makes the spec shine there. We always had a little advantage over other specs when we where allowed to dot multiple targets. But if you have to cast all three dots manually on every single target i am confident it will not lead to absolute dominance, like it didn't in previous expansions.
    Last edited by luckydevours; 2013-07-22 at 11:45 PM.

  4. #2004
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    I call bullshit on that. Have you actually seen some combatlogs or damage meters of multi target encounters in ToT recently? These are the only fights where Affliction warlocks are really topping the meters. And why? Because our dots are so strong? I doubt it. It is the combination of instant application with powerful buffs and an excess amount of Soul Shards that makes the spec shine there. We always had a little advantage over other specs when we where allowed to dot multiple targets. But if you have to cast all three dots manually on every single target i am confident it will not lead to absolute dominance, like it didn't in previous expansions.
    Instant application certainly makes a difference on the add fights; Primordius/Horridon but for longer lived cleaving that instant application matters less. When they nerfed Glyph of Soul Swap in Tier 11 there was much outrage at the loss of quality of life, but damage barely changed, and if anything went up because less clipping was taking place.

    I'm also not sure Affliction didn't dominate, because last expansion it did alongside Shadow Priests, Moonkin and Fire Mages. Two of those are nowhere near where they once were and have fewer dots than Affliction to worry about casting, and Fire Mages well, they are what they are and will never be dealt with.

  5. #2005
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    I don't miss cata demo in the slightest. The only way to even perform remotely well was to have a second gear set which stacked mastery and equip it during prepot, go into meta, and swap back to your regular gear. That felt very, very stupid and if you messed it up your dps was awful.

    You basically couldn't even do competitive dps as a warlock in cataclysm unless you did this trick. Only reason you were brought was for your 10% sp buff because elemental shamans were even worse.
    Well that's just downright hyperbole, b/c I held many top 10-20 ranks in 10H and only ever did this trick maybe twice.
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

  6. #2006
    High Overlord Gorthan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinmccray111 View Post

    And that person you were replying to is correct. Warlocks had one viable spec in Cataclysm, and that was affliction.

    You must not remember or just didnt play in cataclysm. Why do you think the Devs revamped Destro and Demo more than Affliction?
    No. Demo was the spec to go in almost every fight in DS.

  7. #2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthan View Post
    No. Demo was the spec to go in almost every fight in DS.
    Both Demo and Aff had their places to shine, but were both totally viable on all but a couple of encounters (Spine had to be Demo, Warmaster had to be Aff).

  8. #2008
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    Tier 12 was demo, think ragnaros hc anyway.

  9. #2009
    I don't know about the rest of you, but my question is what does Blizzard have against Destro... and Chaos Bolt more specifically. People whined that it hit too hard, and Destro was way too Bursty. Last time I checked, it was early in 5.1 when I was on top of the meters during the initial burst phase. Hell, my guild's Enh Shammy is almost double my burst though he simmers down quite a bit after that...but burst is burst. Why are we the ones getting picked on? I believe its because we have never been bursty in the past and people aren't used to getting torn down by a Warlock so quickly, therefor they cry foul.


    P.S. Really doesn't bother me that much, but I wanted to test my new Sig my daughter made for me so I figured i'd gripe about the only thing I hate atm :P

  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballfro View Post
    I don't know about the rest of you, but my question is what does Blizzard have against Destro... and Chaos Bolt more specifically. People whined that it hit too hard, and Destro was way too Bursty. Last time I checked, it was early in 5.1 when I was on top of the meters during the initial burst phase. Hell, my guild's Enh Shammy is almost double my burst though he simmers down quite a bit after that...but burst is burst. Why are we the ones getting picked on? I believe its because we have never been bursty in the past and people aren't used to getting torn down by a Warlock so quickly, therefor they cry foul.


    P.S. Really doesn't bother me that much, but I wanted to test my new Sig my daughter made for me so I figured i'd gripe about the only thing I hate atm :P
    Destro was totally viable when mop started since it scaled better with low stats gear and due to heroic 463 trinkets being great with it. Now that they nerfed chaos bolt sac dammage, and gear got a lot more stats, evidently, aff and demo just got way better, just like mages switched to fire and arcane when they got more gear.

    But yeah they really do need to do something about destro. Now it seems only viable on ice walls and bats...

    Speaking about burst, destro is really one of the worst specs for it. And since they are nerfing rof, it's gonna be way harder to pull good numbers at the start. Did blizzard actually think about How we're supposed to generate embers better when we pull ?
    Last edited by incroyable; 2013-07-23 at 12:02 PM.

  11. #2011
    Quote Originally Posted by incroyable View Post
    Destro was totally viable when mop started since it scaled better with low stats gear and due to heroic 463 trinkets being great with it. Now that they nerfed chaos bolt sac dammage, and gear got a lot more stats, evidently, aff and demo just got way better, just like mages switched to fire and arcane when they got more gear.

    But yeah they really do need to do something about destro. Now it seems only viable on ice walls and bats...

    Speaking about burst, destro is really one of the worst specs for it. And since they are nerfing rof, it's gonna be way harder to pull good numbers at the start. Did blizzard actually think about How we're supposed to generate embers better when we pull ?
    It's still good on Horridon, Tortos, Durumu, Ra-den... Really not that bad, considering one of our specs has to be the worst.

  12. #2012
    The RoF change is an approximate 30% ember generation nerf in just single target. Now blizz has said they haven't done a numbers pass for 5.4 yet but even the briefest testing shows destro to be in such sorry shape its going to be a dead spec without major buffs. Like 40% kind of major buffs. Destro can't open hard, isn't the king of cleave, isn't the king of controllable damage, and is inferior in sustained to both other warlock options let alone compared to other ranged burst or nuke specs.

    Right now there is no reason in pvp or pve to use destro for 5.4 so hopefully blizz picks up on it. I notice how they take a laissez faire approach to how good fire mages are but destro isn't permitted even close to that kind of performance. Fire is too good, devs know it, devs embrace it. Destro is horrible, devs know it, devs also embrace it. The latest firemge "nerfs" didn't even hold up 24 hours yet destro has been a turd all PTR. So while I know we haven't seen a numbers pass its not out of line to point out that you could toss destro some pretty huge buffs in terms of broad base tuning. Not to mention the pvp success of each also reflects poorly on destro though dev bias in this area is legendary in terms of prejudicially against destro.

    At the end of the day you have only a few damage sources and the ember spenders need to hit harder than ember generators. If all you have is nukes those nukes are going to have to be very very strong to keep up. That means arcane mage like spell coef for the fillers and tuning the spenders even higher than that.

  13. #2013
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthan View Post
    No. Demo was the spec to go in almost every fight in DS.
    The comment you responded to was entirely PvP related.

  14. #2014
    Well comparing Destro to Fire is not really fair, it's our worst spec while Fire is mage's best (by far). Not saying there shouldn't be changes to compensate for RoF, but I don't think it should be dev's top priority to make sure we have ALL our specs be great. I thought it would be fine if they restore ember generation in some way for missing RoF, don't have any numbers but trinkets and 4set are quite good?

  15. #2015
    4set is ok, it has a 10sec icd to assure that uptime can't be higher than 50%. 2set atm is basically nothing. Trinkets are also pretty meh too ever since the amplification trinket was changed to passive.

  16. #2016
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    I thought it would be fine if they restore ember generation in some way for missing RoF, don't have any numbers but trinkets and 4set are quite good?
    Just increasing ember generation because of RoF's nerf won't be sufficient, there needs to be damage increase somewhere. The spec already scales so badly, it will only get worse in T16.
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  17. #2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Instant application certainly makes a difference on the add fights; Primordius/Horridon but for longer lived cleaving that instant application matters less. When they nerfed Glyph of Soul Swap in Tier 11 there was much outrage at the loss of quality of life, but damage barely changed, and if anything went up because less clipping was taking place.
    The situation was much different compared to now. In Cataclysm Soul Swap required 2 global cooldowns to swap dots to another target in comparison with three if you did it manually (3 secs vs. 4.5 secs, both minus haste). Now Soul Swap has a reduced GCD of one second and with Soulburn it no longer requires you to use two of them (1 sec vs 4.5 secs minus haste). So the capacity and convience of SS has been improved quite a lot. By the way this is something i wish had never happened. I'm not convinced that you cannot essentially increase dot damage to compensate for nerfs to MG and DS and affliction will become automatically overpowered. I think with the right countermeasures like reducing dot application capabilities this spec can be balanced however having a significantly different emphasis in terms of gameplay and mechanics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I'm also not sure Affliction didn't dominate, because last expansion it did alongside Shadow Priests, Moonkin and Fire Mages. Two of those are nowhere near where they once were and have fewer dots than Affliction to worry about casting, and Fire Mages well, they are what they are and will never be dealt with.
    I believe the strong performance of Affliction in Tier 11 was more due to Improved Soul Fire giving 15% haste and Dark Intent increasing dot damage by up to 9%. Otherwise the spec was not to dominant where those effects didn't come into play, for example in PvP. And once Improved Soul Fire was changed i cannot remember Affliction being significantly overpowered anymore, it certainly wasn't in Firelands and Dragon Soul, despite having strong dots and weak filler spells. It had an advantage in multi target encounters but it didn't dominate the whole content.

  18. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Just increasing ember generation because of RoF's nerf won't be sufficient, there needs to be damage increase somewhere. The spec already scales so badly, it will only get worse in T16.
    Now, I've never been the biggest theory crafter, but what exactly causes destro to scale poorly? Scaling seems to be a buzz word, but is it scaling with secondary stats on gear, certain trinkets or the legendary? Cause it seems like destro was actually ahead of the curve until people started getting the lei shen trinket and the meta gem. Once demo got the trinket, its broken interaction with Doom pushed it ahead while the meta gem pushed affliction ahead. At least that's what it seems like to me.

    If that is the case, isn't the issue with how blizzard chooses to have certain things scale with destro, rather than destro scaling poorly? They could've simply made destro scale better with the gem and we would've been fine.

    Now if destro needs more than a simple scaling increase with the legendary, why not add something to the spec that adds some dynamics. I've always felt like destro is VERY simple mechanics wise, and a proc could be the buff we need on top of giving us a little bit more complexity. We don't want to be fire mages, but what about adding something like a crit proc that sales with haste. Something like "Whenever you do damage with Incinerate or Immolate you have a chance to gain X critical strike rating for 10 seconds." It's obviously not perfect but I just came up with this off the top of my head. Just something to make the spec more dynamic, especially since it benefits both CB and our ember generation.

    I also like the idea of taking CB off of backdraft and making CB cost half an ember at a 1.8 second base cast time and adjust the damage accordingly. Make it hit for about 50k more than incinerate. That would make the spec feel a lot more rapid fire without risking the huge 300k burst CBs that lead to PvP nerfs.

    With these two changes I would imagine gameplay to feel similar to the way it does now, just more fast paced during our burst phase. CB still has a cast time and we'd have no instant procs for it so the high damage burst phase wouldn't be unstoppable, but it wouldn't be impossible to get off in PvP. Simply by leaving in the 100% crit chance the damage wouldn't have to be much higher than incinerate crits, even 20-30k would be enough since it would always crit.

    What do you guys think? We'd have our rapid fire burst destro back, it would feel more fast paced, it would be viable in arenas, but we wouldn't be OP since we still have to cast. This would also offset the ember generation nerf from RoF and bring us in line with the other specs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    The situation was much different compared to now. In Cataclysm Soul Swap required 2 global cooldowns to swap dots to another target in comparison with three if you did it manually (3 secs vs. 4.5 secs, both minus haste). Now Soul Swap has a reduced GCD of one second and with Soulburn it no longer requires you to use two of them (1 sec vs 4.5 secs minus haste). So the capacity and convience of SS has been improved quite a lot. By the way this is something i wish had never happened. I'm not convinced that you cannot essentially increase dot damage to compensate for nerfs to MG and DS and affliction will become automatically overpowered. I think with the right countermeasures like reducing dot application capabilities this spec can be balanced however having a significantly different emphasis in terms of gameplay and mechanics.

    I believe the strong performance of Affliction in Tier 11 was more due to Improved Soul Fire giving 15% haste and Dark Intent increasing dot damage by up to 9%. Otherwise the spec was not to dominant where those effects didn't come into play, for example in PvP. And once Improved Soul Fire was changed i cannot remember Affliction being significantly overpowered anymore, it certainly wasn't in Firelands and Dragon Soul, despite having strong dots and weak filler spells. It had an advantage in multi target encounters but it didn't dominate the whole content.
    Ehh I will have to say that affliction definitely dominated PvP all throughout cata. Shadowplay, MLS and RLS were pretty dumb for all of cata.

  19. #2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Ehh I will have to say that affliction definitely dominated PvP all throughout cata. Shadowplay, MLS and RLS were pretty dumb for all of cata.
    Because of op dots or strong defenses combined with great synergies between Warlocks and Resto Shamans?

  20. #2020
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Now, I've never been the biggest theory crafter, but what exactly causes destro to scale poorly? Scaling seems to be a buzz word, but is it scaling with secondary stats on gear, certain trinkets or the legendary? Cause it seems like destro was actually ahead of the curve until people started getting the lei shen trinket and the meta gem. Once demo got the trinket, its broken interaction with Doom pushed it ahead while the meta gem pushed affliction ahead. At least that's what it seems like to me.

    If that is the case, isn't the issue with how blizzard chooses to have certain things scale with destro, rather than destro scaling poorly? They could've simply made destro scale better with the gem and we would've been fine.

    Now if destro needs more than a simple scaling increase with the legendary, why not add something to the spec that adds some dynamics. I've always felt like destro is VERY simple mechanics wise, and a proc could be the buff we need on top of giving us a little bit more complexity. We don't want to be fire mages, but what about adding something like a crit proc that sales with haste. Something like "Whenever you do damage with Incinerate or Immolate you have a chance to gain X critical strike rating for 10 seconds." It's obviously not perfect but I just came up with this off the top of my head. Just something to make the spec more dynamic, especially since it benefits both CB and our ember generation.

    I also like the idea of taking CB off of backdraft and making CB cost half an ember at a 1.8 second base cast time and adjust the damage accordingly. Make it hit for about 50k more than incinerate. That would make the spec feel a lot more rapid fire without risking the huge 300k burst CBs that lead to PvP nerfs.

    With these two changes I would imagine gameplay to feel similar to the way it does now, just more fast paced during our burst phase. CB still has a cast time and we'd have no instant procs for it so the high damage burst phase wouldn't be unstoppable, but it wouldn't be impossible to get off in PvP. Simply by leaving in the 100% crit chance the damage wouldn't have to be much higher than incinerate crits, even 20-30k would be enough since it would always crit.

    What do you guys think? We'd have our rapid fire burst destro back, it would feel more fast paced, it would be viable in arenas, but we wouldn't be OP since we still have to cast. This would also offset the ember generation nerf from RoF and bring us in line with the other specs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ehh I will have to say that affliction definitely dominated PvP all throughout cata. Shadowplay, MLS and RLS were pretty dumb for all of cata.
    The general difficulty with Destro doesn't lie in the basic mechanics of the spec. They lie in how you have to use those basic mechanics during an actual fight. When it comes to complex raid encounters Destro is plenty difficult to play effectively. Destro doesn't really need any mechanics changes. Also, a proc doesn't fit Destro at all, theme wise. Destro is all about controlled and planned-out damage phases. A proc doesn't fit that theme.

    As for the Chaos Bolt idea, that'd only further reduce the value of Haste. We'd still be limited by the GCD cap, and now rather than it just being our nukes it would be every single target spell we could possibly cast.

    Personally, I don't really see Destro as a rapid-fire burst spec. I see it as a controlled, planned burst-phase spec that has fast nukes.


    As for scaling poorly, that basically means that for any unit of a stat, we gain less overall DPS from that stat than other specs that "scale" better. An obvious and clear example of this is the value of Haste for Destro compared to Affliction. Haste for Destro reduces cast times and slightly speeds up Immolate. For Affliction, it greatly improves all damage that Affliction does because so much damage is tied into long-duration DoTs and Channels. As for Intellect which is largely tied to ilevel as you can't reforge it, different abilities have different spellpower coefficients (y = mx + b) which means that Intellect's value for different abilities differ.

    For the case of Mages, spellpower has a different impact between the different specs. Frost has a much higher base value on their abilities (b) but their scalar (m) is much lower. Arcane and Fire is the opposite and their base damage is lower (b) but their scalar value is much, much higher (m). This leads to situations where Frost is great at low ilevels, but then Fire and Arcane take over and scale insanely well even within just one tier's worth of gear.

    For Destro specifically, without RoF in the rotation Haste will be really, really, really bad. Crit will stay roughly where it is, and Mastery will have a much greater value as it will benefit a much larger portion of our damage compared to now. As for Int, our abilities don't have as high a scalar (m) as Aff/Demo does. As a result, even within the course of this one tier Destro's fallen behind just from pure spellpower scaling.

    Going into next tier, the base value of specs like Destro and Frost have to be artificially bumped up to allow them to be great at the beginning, and fall behind later on, otherwise no one would ever play them. That's the main problem that Destro is facing going into SoO. And so far all they've done is further reduce the value of all of our stats by nerfing RoF generation. As a result they'll have to buff the crap out of Destro such that Destro is no longer absolutely terrible going into the next tier, even if the end result with Destro falling behind in Heroic gear stays the same between ToT and SoO.

    (The scaling stuff is greatly simplified, but I mostly just wanted to clarify the reasons why there's a problem and not go into extremely specific details)

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