1. #3101
    High Overlord TheBGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Also, I believe they've said (and I agree with it, if true) that they're uncomfortable with Destro generating so many embers, and instead want to compensate by making the embers we do have worth more. (As it was pre-5.2)
    But then don't you fall into the "too op for pvp"? There is really only one direction to go with that...buffing the ember consumers. You would then have to make an adjustment to the pvp side of things because of the uproar from the community that CB actually does damage again, opposed to hitting like a wet noodle.

    We are all in agreement that something HAS to be done because they have essentially cut off destro's legs with the RoF nerf. Unfortunately there are really only two directions to go and I think one of them has far too large of a pvp implication.

  2. #3102
    Right now I only have UVLS and hydra for trinkets. Is uvls really that terrible come 5.4? Also, do we still stack haste as aff next patch? Dos demo go back to a crit heavy build?

  3. #3103
    High Overlord TheBGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciani View Post
    Right now I only have UVLS and hydra for trinkets. Is uvls really that terrible come 5.4? Also, do we still stack haste as aff next patch? Dos demo go back to a crit heavy build?
    UVLS is going to be complete garbage imo, they messed with the RPPM of it and its going to proc even less than it does now come 5.4. If you are going affliction for 5.4 your two trinkets should be Wush and Hydra. If you can get your hands on a H or HTF Wush you will probably be hanging onto it for quite some time.

    There is still debate, and without a final numbers pass its speculation, but since I like to speculate I can tell you the damage of our dots is going up and you will ultimately be channeling less for affliction. With that said, I think it will be best to go for the 9778 or 13787 bp and going full mast after the desired amount is reached.

    In regards to Demo, I cannot speak for that, but crit heavy seems to be a viable option, but of course if you do this, the cross functionality for spec swapping will not be as smooth.

  4. #3104
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post

    Also, while that could certainly be a valid approach, I personally don't like it as that moves Destro more into a DoT-spec role rather than a Nuke-spec.
    How is that? The identity of a dot spec is that the dots do a large bulk of the damage which isn't the case for Destro at all and a change that increases the resource generated through the dot tick rather than the damage of the dot tick doesn't drastically change the damage distribution. It's a lot like an Assassination Rogue's Rupture which does a minuscule amount of damage however the venomous wounds damage and energy regen makes Rupture worth keeping up at all costs
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  5. #3105
    Am I the only one of the opinion that it's unlikely Destro will be buffed more, and very likely that Afflic & Demo will be severely nerfed instead?

    GC has said "locks and mages are too high" like a million times, and mages took some nerfs to the face recently.

  6. #3106
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBGreene View Post
    But then don't you fall into the "too op for pvp"? There is really only one direction to go with that...buffing the ember consumers. You would then have to make an adjustment to the pvp side of things because of the uproar from the community that CB actually does damage again, opposed to hitting like a wet noodle.

    We are all in agreement that something HAS to be done because they have essentially cut off destro's legs with the RoF nerf. Unfortunately there are really only two directions to go and I think one of them has far too large of a pvp implication.
    Yeah, you do, and it is a problem.

    That said, they already have a 25% reduction against players in place. Don't see why they couldn't buff that reduction if required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Am I the only one of the opinion that it's unlikely Destro will be buffed more, and very likely that Afflic & Demo will be severely nerfed instead?

    GC has said "locks and mages are too high" like a million times, and mages took some nerfs to the face recently.
    Sure, but Destro is at the point where single target is behind every other spec by miles. They've also specifically stated that the intention with the RoF change wasn't to nerf destro, but instead to change the mechanics and that compensation for the change would be made.

  7. #3107
    High Overlord TheBGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Am I the only one of the opinion that it's unlikely Destro will be buffed more, and very likely that Afflic & Demo will be severely nerfed instead?

    GC has said "locks and mages are too high" like a million times, and mages took some nerfs to the face recently.
    They technically did nerf them in a sense. They didn't want Locks channeling as much, they nerfed MG/DS and buffed our dots. They didn't want Demo abusing UVLS, they nerfed RPPM trinkets in general...

  8. #3108
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    How is that? The identity of a dot spec is that the dots do a large bulk of the damage which isn't the case for Destro at all and a change that increases the resource generated through the dot tick rather than the damage of the dot tick doesn't drastically change the damage distribution. It's a lot like an Assassination Rogue's Rupture which does a minuscule amount of damage however the venomous wounds damage and energy regen makes Rupture worth keeping up at all costs
    Immolate is already worth casting in a lot of situations. Further buffing Immolate only pushes the spec that further towards the DoT-focused end of the spectrum, and can result in situations where we lose our ability to do quick switch burst damage because we have too much damage/ember generation inside of Immolate. (A problem Subtlety has in spades)

  9. #3109
    Immolate is already worth casting in a lot of situations. Further buffing Immolate only pushes the spec that further towards the DoT-focused end of the spectrum, and can result in situations where we lose our ability to do quick switch burst damage because we have too much damage/ember generation inside of Immolate. (A problem Subtlety has in spades)
    I dont necessarily agree because the resource is being built on yourself, not the target so if you're dpsing a main target and you have to make a quick switch you still have the resources you built up beforehand to do the same burst you can now. If you need to cast an immolate on the burst target, then it isn't really a burst target. Debuffs matter more to subtelty than destro.
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  10. #3110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    I dont necessarily agree because the resource is being built on yourself, not the target so if you're dpsing a main target and you have to make a quick switch you still have the resources you built up beforehand to do the same burst you can now. If you need to cast an immolate on the burst target, then it isn't really a burst target. Debuffs matter more to subtelty than destro.
    I suppose i should elaborate.

    Immolate is already, on live, worth casting on a target if it'll be alive for about 3 ticks. If you suddenly increase the ember gen that substantially, it'll have to be one of the first things you cast on any target, and that feels like a DoT spec more than a Nuke spec to me.

  11. #3111
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    I dont necessarily agree because the resource is being built on yourself, not the target so if you're dpsing a main target and you have to make a quick switch you still have the resources you built up beforehand to do the same burst you can now. If you need to cast an immolate on the burst target, then it isn't really a burst target. Debuffs matter more to subtelty than destro.
    While your right, if they balance us around our dot damage that means they aren't buffing our ember consumers. That would mean even though the embers stay on us when we do swap to a burst target our burst would just not be as good. However, even without buffs we are one of the best at it in the game so I have a hard time seeing that ever being an issue for destruction. It's the reason people go destruction for ra-den, at least for progression, as the only damage that really matters on that fight is the balls which is a very short burst window.

  12. #3112
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I suppose i should elaborate.

    Immolate is already, on live, worth casting on a target if it'll be alive for about 3 ticks. If you suddenly increase the ember gen that substantially, it'll have to be one of the first things you cast on any target, and that feels like a DoT spec more than a Nuke spec to me.
    Well, almost every dps spec in this game has to put up some sort of debuff before inflicting burst damage so I'm not sure what you expect. Destruction's identity since BC (fire destruction, anyway) has always been about setting up with immolate, even for burst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    While your right, if they balance us around our dot damage that means they aren't buffing our ember consumers. That would mean even though the embers stay on us when we do swap to a burst target our burst would just not be as good.
    The whole argument is around buffing immolate's ember regeneration, not immolate's damage. Ember consumer damage from live to 5.4 isn't going to change and on live ember consumer burst is very good so I don't understand what the problem is.
    Last edited by Jetjaguar; 2013-08-21 at 08:22 PM.
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  13. #3113
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonwraith View Post
    Are there not comps that own the leader boards every season..?
    Of course, just calling it now that its going to be a top spec. Find yourself a dk (or a shadow priest or a survival hunter) and a healer now for the coming season!

  14. #3114
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    Well, almost every dps spec in this game has to put up some sort of debuff before inflicting burst damage so I'm not sure what you expect. Destruction's identity since BC (fire destruction, anyway) has always been about setting up with immolate, even for burst.



    The whole argument is around buffing immolate's ember regeneration, not immolate's damage. Ember consumer damage from live to 5.4 isn't going to change and on live ember consumer burst is very good so I don't understand what the problem is.
    Warlocks, and Destro in particular, are completely different spec-wise post MoP. Any sort of comparison made between the two is completely pointless and should fall into the realm of comparing between classes. Destruction in MoP is a nuke focused, controlled burst spec.

    I'm referring to mechanics with my concerns here, not balancing. Buffing Immolate that substantially doesn't really fit in with what I would consider (and the spec's been following thus far) to be the identity of the spec.

  15. #3115
    There is room to buff chaos bolt in pvp. During cd's CB hits for ~ 80k, and is a minimum of a 1.9s cast. I think as long as that # stays under 100k it wont cause pvp balance issues.

  16. #3116
    Guys, my guild started to test stuff on PTR since 25man have started. Everyone were saying in this very thread how OPs we were and we would be nerfed, but I dont see it, Iam having reall trouble to even be top 15 with either aff/demo, I been testing new trinkets and new tier 4set. Rogues, hunters and shamans are stealing the show, especially rogues.

    The few bosses I tried weren't that lock friendly thou.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  17. #3117
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Warlocks, and Destro in particular, are completely different spec-wise post MoP. Any sort of comparison made between the two is completely pointless and should fall into the realm of comparing between classes. Destruction in MoP is a nuke focused, controlled burst spec.

    I'm referring to mechanics with my concerns here, not balancing. Buffing Immolate that substantially doesn't really fit in with what I would consider (and the spec's been following thus far) to be the identity of the spec.
    Destruction has ALWAYS been nuke focused but that doesn't mean the spec doesn't need Immolate as the set up spell the same way flame shock is needed for elemental shamans. A set up debuff doesn't make a spec a dot class and buffing immolate's ember regen doesn't change how the spec plays nor does it change how the spec feels. You're still setting up your damage with an initial immolate cast. That's how it's been for 7 years. It is still like that on live.
    Last edited by Jetjaguar; 2013-08-21 at 09:53 PM.
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  18. #3118
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    Well, almost every dps spec in this game has to put up some sort of debuff before inflicting burst damage so I'm not sure what you expect. Destruction's identity since BC (fire destruction, anyway) has always been about setting up with immolate, even for burst.
    Unlinking (that's a word right?) Immolate damage from Incinerate and Conflagrate was one of the best things they did.

    I think that however they buff us (assuming they do) it's important to keep the correct ratios of damage from Immolate, Conflag, Incin, Chaosbolt and Shadowburn.

    I think Destro was just nuke focused compared to Aff and Demo (not counting pet swaping, gear swapping, MWC hell). Now it's ACTUALLY a nuke spec.
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2013-08-21 at 09:56 PM. Reason: spelling is hard

  19. #3119
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Unlinking (that's a word right?) Immolate damage from Incinerate and Conflagrate was one of the best things they did.

    I think that however they buff us (assuming they do) it's important to keep the correct ratios between damage from Immolate, Conflag, Incin, Chaosbolt and Shadowburn.
    I think unliking Immolate damage from incinerate and conflagrate was a good idea as well, but the spec is still heavily linked to the spell like it has always been. Buffing Immolate to regen embers on every tick doesn't change your playstyle. On live, you still put it on as many things as you can that will live long enough and a proposed change like that wouldn't make your playstyle any different.
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  20. #3120
    Pit Lord MrHappy's Avatar
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    It seems that until you have heroic gear 2pc+2pc is stronger for Demonology come 5.4.

    Did some testing on PTR and I will most likely roll Mastery> Crit >=Haste builds as Destro MS Demo OS so i won't have to change gear too much and be demo for 3/4 target fights.

    @Brutalisk

    The immolation buff was probably to compensate for the RoF "nerf" so that on AoE fights the dots would be stronger to synergize with the 5.4 Manaroth's
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