1. #3701
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yeah affliction doodoo'd on destro in 5.0

    Destro hadn't received any of the buffs it got in 5.2 yet and gosac was still giving a 50% increase for aff which was silly.
    I missed the sac part of Affliction. I thought it was nerfed? The damage bonus to Haunt was nerfed. Too lazy to check, but I thought they neutered GoSac for Affliction as well.

  2. #3702
    As i remember it, playing Affliction with GoSac at that time simply was #1 dps by default for quite a few fights, it gave me entitlement issues!

  3. #3703
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    When does rain of fire start becoming viable? 2 targets? 3?
    It's a huge dps increase on 2 targets (10-15%) assuming 1 RoF hits 2 targets all the time.
    And it's a dps loss when 2 separate RoFs hit 2 separate targets because it would simply mess up your mana regen and wouldn't give you enough embers to compensate that amount of mana.

  4. #3704
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    It's a huge dps increase on 2 targets (10-15%) assuming 1 RoF hits 2 targets all the time.
    And it's a dps loss when 2 separate RoFs hit 2 separate targets because it would simply mess up your mana regen and wouldn't give you enough embers to compensate that amount of mana.
    Are you 100% sure about this? We're talking about 5.4 here where the amount of embers it provides has been slashed dramatically. So much so that even on 5/6 targets it struggles to provide enough embers to maintain a FnB rotation.

    Where did you get this 10-15% damage increase from?

  5. #3705
    Where did you get this 10-15% damage increase from?
    I pulled those numbers straight out of my ass, sir.
    Just did some dummy tests.

  6. #3706
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Are you 100% sure about this? We're talking about 5.4 here where the amount of embers it provides has been slashed dramatically. So much so that even on 5/6 targets it struggles to provide enough embers to maintain a FnB rotation.

    Where did you get this 10-15% damage increase from?
    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    I pulled those numbers straight out of my ass, sir.
    Just did some dummy tests.
    Also, common sense. Damage Per Cast Time. Ignoring ember gen that is. As it currently stands on live, iirc, RoF has a higher DPCT than Incinerate single target, PLUS the extra embers. They haven't nerfed RoF damage or buffed Incinerate in any way, the only change has been the embers from RoF. So if you're hitting 2 targets with RoF, then, ignoring the embers from it, it's doing more than double the damage you would've if you'd just cast an Incinerate. In single target it comes into play as being worse, however, because the embers outweigh the (tiny) bit of extra damage.

    Edit: Just checked on my geared lock. It's reforged for Demo instead of Destro, so has tons of mastery (which increases the damage of incinerate, but not RoF), so these numbers might be a wee bit skewed, but as it currently stands, completely unbuffed, the tooltip for Incinerate says that it does 70,083 damage in a 1.67s cast time (so 41,965 damage per second), whereas RoF does 42,280 damage in a GCD.

    Again, that's with incorrect stat weights, completely ignoring any buffs, haste procs (such as backlash), and all ember gen, which would change the numbers, but the base tooltips show RoF having a higher DPCT than incinerate, single target. Which only goes to prove that if you have an extra mob sitting in RoF for it's full duration, it does more than double the damage of a single incinerate on 1 of the mobs.
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-04 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #3707
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Agreed, I'd forgotten to take into account the damage that it does.

    My concerns were wrapped up in whether the ember generation will be enough to justify it.

    The fact that it doesn't have a cast time is also a bonus in RoF's favour, though by the sounds of it, fel flame seems the way to go unless under backdraft?

  8. #3708
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    Agreed, I'd forgotten to take into account the damage that it does.

    My concerns were wrapped up in whether the ember generation will be enough to justify it.

    The fact that it doesn't have a cast time is also a bonus in RoF's favour, though by the sounds of it, fel flame seems the way to go unless under backdraft?
    ~0.25 emberbit per tick => ~2 emberbits per cast => ~4 emberbits per cast on 2 targets
    Much better than an Incinerate, ember-wise.
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  9. #3709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    ~0.25 emberbit per tick => ~2 emberbits per cast => ~4 emberbits per cast on 2 targets
    Much better than an Incinerate, ember-wise.
    Yeah I just copied over my addons to PTR and actually did some anecdotal testing for once. Did two quick and dirty 5 minute tests on a pair of dummies.

    With only 53% uptime on rain of fire (i know, i know), maintaining immolate on both targets but not using havoc, I managed 216k dps, of which rain of fire was 7.7% damage. I know the rain of fire uptime was dogshit, so obviously it will be even better with perfect play.

    Without using rain of fire I ended up at 184k dps after 5 minutes. Chaos bolt made up 5% less damage but I did cast a lot more incinerates.

    I waited 5 mins between attempts. Burst was noticeable higher with rain of fire up as well due to getting so many more embers.

    So yeah, obviously this testing was complete crap and can't be taken as gospel, but you're right that its a massive increase on 2 targets alone.

    I didn't use fel flame at all though in these tests. I'm right in assuming that with a low haste build, it's better than incinerate unless you have backdraft up?

  10. #3710
    Wait, so what you're saying is that despite blizzard nerfing RoF to stop us casting it single target... It's still going to be required for ember generation? So we basically got nerfed for the sake of it and not to remove an unintended play style?

    Ugh, so much bullshit.

  11. #3711
    Quote Originally Posted by Nungamunch View Post
    Wait, so what you're saying is that despite blizzard nerfing RoF to stop us casting it single target... It's still going to be required for ember generation? So we basically got nerfed for the sake of it and not to remove an unintended play style?

    Ugh, so much bullshit.
    Blizz doesn't want us to use RoF as a single target spell, which is why they nerfed it. The situation described in the post above yours is a multi target situation, which might still require us to use RoF.

    Althoug, I think RoF might even be useful in one specific situation in a single target fight:
    Assuming you have built up 3-4 embers, because DS is about to be rdy and you pop DS and start chaining 4-6 Chaos Bolts in a row, I think it might still be a (small) dps increase, using RoF every 2nd Chaos Bolt or so, to maintain a small ember regeneration while firing all those CBs. This might even squeeze out another CB, because of the ember you have regenerated, while firing away your CBs.

  12. #3712
    Quote Originally Posted by Nungamunch View Post
    Wait, so what you're saying is that despite blizzard nerfing RoF to stop us casting it single target... It's still going to be required for ember generation? So we basically got nerfed for the sake of it and not to remove an unintended play style?

    Ugh, so much bullshit.
    They're talking about 2+ targets.

  13. #3713
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    They're talking about 2+ targets.
    It still might be better than Incinerate in single target too. It is for embers at least, but the damage might be lower, especially with a lot of mastery.
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  14. #3714
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    It still might be better than Incinerate in single target too. It is for embers at least, but the damage might be lower, especially with a lot of mastery.
    Well there's that 'Ember generator' button people were looking for.

  15. #3715
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    ~0.25 emberbit per tick => ~2 emberbits per cast => ~4 emberbits per cast on 2 targets
    Much better than an Incinerate, ember-wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    It still might be better than Incinerate in single target too. It is for embers at least, but the damage might be lower, especially with a lot of mastery.
    Well, at 12k unbuffed mastery, my incinerates have a lower DPCT than RoF... But I guess having 3k mastery and 5% haste raid buffs would also increase incinerate's worth too, so I can't say for certain... But it looks like, (depending on the stat weights of Destro come next patch too) RoF could still be viable in single target rotation, but only when incinerate isn't affected by haste procs... At least, at lower gear levels it definitely will be. Hard to say for higher gear. But at lower gear it gives more (average) embers per cast than Incin does, and has a roughly equal DPCT. Don't know what to make of it, honestly.

    IMO at this point, it looks like the only way they could possibly fix Destro PROPERLY is to buff Incinerate to give 2 emberbits on hit, 4 on crit... And maybe to balance it take the ember gen out of Immolate crit ticks. Or something like that. I don't know. At least that would increase single target DPS, fix the AoE ember problem, make RoF completely out of the question for single (and double?) target, AND stop Fel Flame from being used as a filler over Incinerate... :\

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Well there's that 'Ember generator' button people were looking for.
    People were asking for a button that gave an entire ember, instantly, and had a somewhat long (~60 secs?) CD to compensate. RoF generates 0.2 embers over ~7 seconds on single target. That's NOT an "Ember Generator Button".

    Unless you're referring to something else entirely, that I'm not aware of.

  16. #3716
    It's pretty obvious that the post said "pair" I got indignant before reading it properly.

    I was pleased I had misread until others came in to confirm my worst fear.

    I really hate casting RoF on a single target.

  17. #3717
    Quote Originally Posted by ZaneBusby View Post
    People were asking for a button that gave an entire ember, instantly, and had a somewhat long (~60 secs?) CD to compensate. RoF generates 0.2 embers over ~7 seconds on single target. That's NOT an "Ember Generator Button".

    Unless you're referring to something else entirely, that I'm not aware of.
    Such a button would be a DPS cooldown, not an Ember generator. There's a difference, the generator would improve generation at a DPS loss, just as Drain Soul functions as a Shard generator for Affliction and Wild Imps functions outside of DS for Demonology.

  18. #3718
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
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    If they reduced the ember gen for RoF to 0.25 per tick (down from ~0.4) and it's gaining about 2 emberbits per cast, wouldn't it still be worth it to cast single target? You would technically get about 1 more emberbit at a slight dps gain for keeping RoF up instead of casting an extra incinerate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ZaneBusby View Post
    Edit: Just checked on my geared lock. It's reforged for Demo instead of Destro, so has tons of mastery (which increases the damage of incinerate, but not RoF), so these numbers might be a wee bit skewed, but as it currently stands, completely unbuffed, the tooltip for Incinerate says that it does 70,083 damage in a 1.67s cast time (so 41,965 damage per second), whereas RoF does 42,280 damage in a GCD.
    Are you also remembering to add that if your target has immolate up, rain of fire does 50% more damage? So your RoF would really be doing 63,420 damage which is a dps gain.
    Last edited by sasofrass; 2013-09-04 at 03:56 PM.
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  19. #3719
    Well, you don't want RoF in your single target rotation for several reasons. But I personally think that the main reason is that RoF burns your mana.
    When you get 4T16 you'll want to buff all your Chaos Bolts with than 5 second buff. And if you use RoF too much you'll end with lots of weak Chaos Bolts.

  20. #3720
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
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    Using RoF in a single target rotation doesn't burn your mana on live so that is not even an issue and I don't really think you understand what I wrote. If you are still capable of gaining emberbits, even just one, it's worth to cast because it will give you, overall, more embers to spend on chaos bolts. It's not difficult for a player to chaos bolt when they gain the buff from the 4 piece next tier, so I don't understand the "weaker chaos bolts." Even if you rain of fire as soon as the buff procs, you can still get off 2 chaos bolts if the embers allow it.
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