1. #3721
    Stood in the Fire ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    Are you also remembering to add that if your target has immolate up, rain of fire does 50% more damage? So your RoF would really be doing 63,420 damage which is a dps gain.
    Aww shit. Yes, I completely forgot about that part. >_< Thanks for pointing that out. Looks like RoF will most likely still be in the single target rotation after taking that into consideration. Higher DPCT than Incin, roughly equal ember generation. Dammit Blizz fail hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Well, you don't want RoF in your single target rotation for several reasons. But I personally think that the main reason is that RoF burns your mana.
    When you get 4T16 you'll want to buff all your Chaos Bolts with than 5 second buff. And if you use RoF too much you'll end with lots of weak Chaos Bolts.
    Mana is really a non-issue for destro. If it is (since mana regen scales with haste, and we're going for as little haste as possible next tier) just use less RoF's overall. But it'll still be required to have a *somewhat* decent uptime. Incin costs 60k mana, RoF costs 75k, just to put things in perspective.

    And 4pc T16 = 5 sec of 15% crit on ember fill up on a 10 sec ICD... How is that affected by RoF in any way? Just don't waste your proc uptime casting RoF, use RoF BETWEEN procs. If you're implying more Chaos Bolts that AREN'T affected by the 4pc proc are a bad thing, then that's just stupid. Even an unbuffed Chaos Bolt is extremely valuable.
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-04 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #3722
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Also because of how often we are getting cast chaos bolt with the 4 piece, and how slow our cast of chaos bolt is, we have ample time for mana to regenerate inbetween chaos bolt casts.

  3. #3723
    I went with a mastery/crit setup and fel flame as filler (except for backdraft incinerates) and i didnt had enough mana to maintain a decent uptime of rof.
    You get a maximum of 2 emberbits per RoF , often enough you get 0. If using rain of fire in a single target scenario is a dps increase, than it must be a really small one. (simcraft with ptr data says around 300 dps, something if would sacrifice to get rid of the clunkyness, but then, i wont be using destro other than bomb fights anyway)

    2 targets or more rof is required of course.

  4. #3724
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Yeah for single target I won't be using it unless it somehow becomes mandatory. I sat around just casting rain of fire on two dummies for a while. I think the most I got was 7 ember bits per cast, definitely a few occasions where I got none. Between 2 and 5 seemed to be the average.

    Again, this was just anecdotal evidence, but those times where you got 7 ember bits was sweet. I didn't have immolate up either, just pure rain of fire.

    This was done with 5k haste and 5k crit, as I couldnt get haste any lower, and was stacking mastery as priority.

  5. #3725
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    Also because of how often we are getting cast chaos bolt with the 4 piece, and how slow our cast of chaos bolt is, we have ample time for mana to regenerate inbetween chaos bolt casts.
    We won't cast a lot of Chaos bolts with the 4 pieces buff, except if we have a high ember generation on the fight. You would be better off waiting for trinkets or Dark soul.

    Yeah for single target I won't be using it unless it somehow becomes mandatory. I sat around just casting rain of fire on two dummies for a while. I think the most I got was 7 ember bits per cast, definitely a few occasions where I got none. Between 2 and 5 seemed to be the average.

    Again, this was just anecdotal evidence, but those times where you got 7 ember bits was sweet. I didn't have immolate up either, just pure rain of fire.

    This was done with 5k haste and 5k crit, as I couldnt get haste any lower, and was stacking mastery as priority.
    It is 0.25 emberbit per tick & per target, no matter how many targets you have. So on average you will get 4 emberbits with 1 RoF on 2 targets.
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  6. #3726
    All this endless discussion about RoF, while the mechanics are interesting to ponder, gives me a headache and makes me glad I switched away from Destruction half way through ToT Normal. Recasting an AoE spell with a targeting reticule every 6 seconds on a single mob is just NOT my idea of fun. I am hard pressed to find any other Lock mechanic that annoyed me as much.

    What more does Blizzard need to do to keep Locks from using this in their single target rotation?

  7. #3727
    Quote Originally Posted by Kashii View Post
    All this endless discussion about RoF, while the mechanics are interesting to ponder, gives me a headache and makes me glad I switched away from Destruction half way through ToT Normal. Recasting an AoE spell with a targeting reticule every 6 seconds on a single mob is just NOT my idea of fun. I am hard pressed to find any other Lock mechanic that annoyed me as much.

    What more does Blizzard need to do to keep Locks from using this in their single target rotation?
    Restore the original ember generation ability from 5.3, and then make it only generate embers when it hits more than 1 target.

  8. #3728
    I have a really quick question, i kinda know the answer but i want some confirmation. Which trinket combo would you recommend for affliction at the beginning of 5.4, i have Normal UVLS, Normal Cha ye's and Heroic Wush.

  9. #3729
    The Patient sasofrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hangrah View Post
    I have a really quick question, i kinda know the answer but i want some confirmation. Which trinket combo would you recommend for affliction at the beginning of 5.4, i have Normal UVLS, Normal Cha ye's and Heroic Wush.
    UVLS and wush

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Restore the original ember generation ability from 5.3, and then make it only generate embers when it hits more than 1 target.
    if only blizzard had this much common sense. :\
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  10. #3730
    Mechagnome Hexotic's Avatar
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    Ive seen a few of my buddy locks talk about an rppm change to UVLS, where its no longer procing of rppm, apparently this change was put in on the ptr 2-3 days ago. Can anyone confirm/deny this? because this could really be a game changer lol.

  11. #3731
    Quote Originally Posted by Hangrah View Post
    I have a really quick question, i kinda know the answer but i want some confirmation. Which trinket combo would you recommend for affliction at the beginning of 5.4, i have Normal UVLS, Normal Cha ye's and Heroic Wush.
    UVLS and Wushoolay, replace the UVLS first.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexotic View Post
    Ive seen a few of my buddy locks talk about an rppm change to UVLS, where its no longer procing of rppm, apparently this change was put in on the ptr 2-3 days ago. Can anyone confirm/deny this? because this could really be a game changer lol.
    Eh... source?

  12. #3732
    @ 550 ilevel UVLS consistently procs for me very close to how it does on live and on live i have a 2/2 HTF UVLS so I imagine something might have changed
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  13. #3733
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    @ 550 ilevel UVLS consistently procs for me very close to how it does on live and on live i have a 2/2 HTF UVLS so I imagine something might have changed
    Really? I'm 550 as well w/ 2/2 HTF UVLS and I'm wondering what to do come next Tuesday for demo and aff. I have 543 Hydra and Wush and obviously a 549 UVLS. I really wish we had some better way to determine what's optimal than simply playtesting through normals next week, but that will likely be the case...

  14. #3734
    If you are still capable of gaining emberbits, even just one, it's worth to cast because it will give you, overall, more embers to spend on chaos bolts.
    Yeah, RoF rotation over 5 minutes fight will give you for example 2-3 additional chaos bolts and LOTS of weak chaos bolts.
    If you throw away RoF and use it only on 100% mana and during Dark Soul you'll be able to buff >90% your chaos bolts.

    If you're implying more Chaos Bolts that AREN'T affected by the 4pc proc are a bad thing, then that's just stupid.
    I don't think it's so stupid. Just kinda difficult to do the math. Whether worth it or not.

    Ok. Here's some random retarded math:
    ~9 min fight (I had to stop because of a lag spikes). The old "RoF on CD" rotation. Incinerate spam, just few Felflames. And here I'm trying my best to use set bonus procs for bolts and immolates, Black Blood trinket proc, line up Purifide Bindings with dark soul and trying to save few embers for dark soul.

    47 Chaos Bolts
    479 RoF ticks = 60 RoF casts
    According to what Zumzumzum said, 479 RoF ticks = 119,75 ember bits = 12 embers = 12 Chaos Bolts
    RoF has the same cast time as Felflame.
    If I throw out RoF and cast FF intead of it I'd get (60 casts) x (1emberbit per cast) x (1+ crit chance) ember bits.
    Let's say I have 20% crit. That would be 60*1,2=72 bits = 7 Chaos Bolts
    As you can see, in a 10 minute fight RoF gave me 12-7=5 additional Chaos Bolts. It wold be 3 Chaos Bolts for 5 min fight. (And a lot of unbuffed Chaos Bolts.)
    And I can say that it was 10 minutes of HELL. Always low on mana AND embers trying to squezze some dps out of procs. (Same dps as brainless FF spam, by the way)
    I don't want to write the rest of my math because it's too obscure and probably wrong.
    RoF in this example is responsible for 4% additional damage(additional chaos bolts + difference in RoF and Felflame DPET).
    But I'm sure I can do better always having 2+ embers and almost full mana bar. For example spend 2 Chaos Bolts instead of 1 Chaos Bolt on Black Blood of Y'Shaarj proc(probably lined up with 15% crit buff). I don't even want to talk about boss mechanics and that you should always have 1-2 embers in stock.
    Seriously, that RoF rotation feels clunky even for Patchwerk-style fight.


    By the way. I've been doing some tests and suddenly realized that destro has 1 second GKD. The more you know lol.
    Sorry for poor english.

  15. #3735
    Mechagnome Hexotic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post



    Eh... source?
    Thats why Im asking here, I couldn't find anything about it anywhere, but ive heard about this from 5 semi credible people.

  16. #3736
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexotic View Post
    Thats why Im asking here, I couldn't find anything about it anywhere, but ive heard about this from 5 semi credible people.
    I think what your referring to was the blue post where rppm was broken in the ptr causing them not to proc as often as they should. They have now fixed that issue and I saw a lock or 2 post that after that fix their uvls procced off the pull and they were able to maintain 100% crit doom when they were testing the ptr encounters.

  17. #3737
    Stood in the Fire ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Yeah, RoF rotation over 5 minutes fight will give you for example 2-3 additional chaos bolts and LOTS of weak chaos bolts.
    If you throw away RoF and use it only on 100% mana and during Dark Soul you'll be able to buff >90% your chaos bolts.
    PLEASE, explain to me what the hell you mean by "LOTS of weak chaos bolts", because I'm REALLY not getting you right now. You should have the same number of powered up (by 4set) Chaos Bolts as without casting RoF (otherwise you're just not playing well), PLUS you'd get a couple of EXTRA Chaos Bolts that don't have the 15% crit buff. EXTRA Chaos Bolts will ALWAYS be good.

    I don't think it's so stupid. Just kinda difficult to do the math. Whether worth it or not.
    What. Are you serious right now? Chaos Bolt, even unbuffed, has the highest DPCT of any of our spells right now. Hard to do the math??? Worth it or not???

    Ok. Here's some random retarded math:
    ~9 min fight (I had to stop because of a lag spikes). The old "RoF on CD" rotation. Incinerate spam, just few Felflames. And here I'm trying my best to use set bonus procs for bolts and immolates, Black Blood trinket proc, line up Purifide Bindings with dark soul and trying to save few embers for dark soul.

    47 Chaos Bolts
    479 RoF ticks = 60 RoF casts
    According to what Zumzumzum said, 479 RoF ticks = 119,75 ember bits = 12 embers = 12 Chaos Bolts
    RoF has the same cast time as Felflame.
    If I throw out RoF and cast FF intead of it I'd get (60 casts) x (1emberbit per cast) x (1+ crit chance) ember bits.
    Let's say I have 20% crit. That would be 60*1,2=72 bits = 7 Chaos Bolts
    As you can see, in a 10 minute fight RoF gave me 12-7=5 additional Chaos Bolts. It wold be 3 Chaos Bolts for 5 min fight. (And a lot of unbuffed Chaos Bolts.)
    And I can say that it was 10 minutes of HELL. Always low on mana AND embers trying to squezze some dps out of procs. (Same dps as brainless FF spam, by the way)
    I don't want to write the rest of my math because it's too obscure and probably wrong.
    Firstly I think you're trying way too hard to get optimal RoF uptime. RoF will be a DPS increase over casting Fel Flame or an unbuffed Incinerate. That's realistically the only time. You don't need to worry about having 100% uptime on it, because it's not nearly as powerful as it is on live, but it's still going to do more DPS when you're down to just using raw fillers.

    RoF in this example is responsible for 4% additional damage(additional chaos bolts + difference in RoF and Felflame DPET).
    But I'm sure I can do better always having 2+ embers and almost full mana bar. For example spend 2 Chaos Bolts instead of 1 Chaos Bolt on Black Blood of Y'Shaarj proc(probably lined up with 15% crit buff). I don't even want to talk about boss mechanics and that you should always have 1-2 embers in stock.
    Seriously, that RoF rotation feels clunky even for Patchwerk-style fight.


    By the way. I've been doing some tests and suddenly realized that destro has 1 second GCD. The more you know lol.
    Sorry for poor english.
    And here you are admitting that RoF is a DPS increase because it has a higher DPCT than Fel Flame or an unbuffed Incinerate, and gives you extra Chaos Bolts which increases DPS... Yet you STILL start off your post mentioning "weak chaos bolts". WTF is up with that?
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-04 at 10:01 PM.

  18. #3738
    The Patient sasofrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Yeah, RoF rotation over 5 minutes fight will give you for example 2-3 additional chaos bolts and LOTS of weak chaos bolts.
    If you throw away RoF and use it only on 100% mana and during Dark Soul you'll be able to buff >90% your chaos bolts.
    3 additional chaos bolts, even if weak, is still better than none. With no trinkets and in 550 item level gear, the bolts still manage to do 400k+ damage, not to mention RoF will end up doing ~20-30k more damage per full rain of fire cast compared to incinerate, which all adds up aswell.
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  19. #3739
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Restore the original ember generation ability from 5.3, and then make it only generate embers when it hits more than 1 target.
    This really is what they should have done all along, or at least started with. Makes it less attractive to keep up in a single target situation and doesn't clunkify AoE.

  20. #3740
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    We won't cast a lot of Chaos bolts with the 4 pieces buff, except if we have a high ember generation on the fight. You would be better off waiting for trinkets or Dark soul.
    Sorry I should have clarified that I was talking about 2+ targets, where I felt that the rate of ember generation was quite fluid (faster than the ICD of the 4 piece at any rate).

    Also, I tried to keep immolate buffed with the 4 set as much as possible, and weaved in chaos bolts to dump excess embers.

    Am I right to presume that this is correct play, or should we look to use incinerate/fel flame. Basically, what are peoples opinions/results on how the 4 set should best be utilised? In both single target and 2-3 target cleave.

    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    3 additional chaos bolts, even if weak, is still better than none. With no trinkets and in 550 item level gear, the bolts still manage to do 400k+ damage, not to mention RoF will end up doing ~20-30k more damage per full rain of fire cast compared to incinerate, which all adds up aswell.
    I think he means the same as you, that RoF is good because it provides all these additional chaos bolts. Him calling them weak was just to differentiate them from the uber buffed dark soul + trinket chaos bolts we would otherwise be saving our embers for. I think.

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