1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukahn View Post
    What I take away from it is unfortunately a "We don't like this" therefore even though you all might, too bad. We're going through with it. :\
    I'm not happy with the KJC change, but it's better that they go ahead with their vision rather than just caving every time people cry about something - it's just a balancing act between knowing when something people are crying about is worth catering to and when it's better for the game to not give everyone what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I agree, Haunt while moving is stupid. I mean let's entertain the thought. It works to an extent, but it's heavily reliant on gear to have the shards to do this while moving.
    It also just feels bad, you're not supposed to haunt on CD - being "forced" to "waste" a shard by movement feels about as shit as using Fel Flame and downscaling your dots.

    There's a difference between
    a) Movement has forced me to break my standard rotation and use suboptimal movement-allowable filler
    and
    b) Movement has forced me to use an ability that is actively having negative repercussions after said movement ends, which is exactly what downscaling dots or draining shards does

    Allowing haunt to be cast on the move fixes if we're forced to make movement for the 1 second or so cast haunt has, letting us avoid interupting it. It doesn't fix the core problem that we have nothing to do WHILE moving, like, lengthy or regular movement.

    Wouldn't be so bad if our dots were actually potent without relying on our filler spell, but I doubt we'll get decent dots with shadowbolt back any time soon.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    They do this for every class, though. It's not just him and not just us.

    WoW suffers from creative constipation. It's grown so bad that I'm thinking of leaving WoW forever. They just can't get past the "jump when I SAY jump!" mentality [I've often said it feels like developers started out as 1st Edition Dungeon Masters]

    The fundamental problem is, they go berserk unless YOU play THEIR game THEIR way. It's why subscriber numbers are finally plummeting: at long last, they've pigeonholed everyone into play styles with no flexibility and no meaningful variation, playing a game with no alternative advancement and every ounce of fun sucked out. There's no alternative here, and so people play other games.

    WoW became popular as a broad, flexible MMO. Nothing like that existed before. But, every time they took a step toward flexibility, they took two steps backward -- from MoP talents to pushing overtuned raids near-exclusively to knee-jerk class nerfs to "bring in line" any class that had a fun or unique gameplay element.

    This is why Shamans are still putting sticks in the ground, Paladins are still balanced around Divine Shield, and Windwalker Monk mechanics get called "unique and different" when their "uniqueness" means "gaining nothing from offensive raid cooldowns" (note: they're balanced around them as if they gain full benefits). It's also why the Monk rollout was a complete disaster: the class had to fit their narrow mold, so it got the same thoroughput for much harder mechanics, and -- suprise! -- nobody fucking plays it.

    If anything, the 5.4 KJC nerf proves that they learned nothing from the Monk disaster. If you make Warlock into a ghetto Mage, ghetto Moonkin, ghetto Elemental Shaman...with the same playstyle but a more complex rotation...people won't play it. It's that simple.
    Troof. All troof.

  3. #383
    Would a Glyph that causes Fel Flame to not extend (and therefore not weaken) DoTs make Affliction players happier?

    Also, the Demonology 4 set is also triggered by Soul Fire, not just ToC and SB as the tooltip states.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Would a Glyph that causes Fel Flame to not extend (and therefore not weaken) DoTs make Affliction players happier?
    No, because
    -it's still pitiful damage
    -it's still a massive mana waste
    -you then end up with a "mandatory" glyph

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Would a Glyph that causes Fel Flame to not extend (and therefore not weaken) DoTs make Affliction players happier?

    Also, the Demonology 4 set is also triggered by Soul Fire, not just ToC and SB as the tooltip states.
    Happier, maybe, but hardly - that's still both taking up a valuable glyph slot, and taking away the option to actually use it for dot updates, and the occasion does crop up where you want it for that.

    I know, beggars can't be choosers - but is that what the spec has been relegated to, a beggar? Does any other class need to glyph to get a movement filler at the expense of a spells normal utility, what should be expected as standard for most dps classes?

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    Without KJC, welcome to being but humped into oblivion
    Dat over exaggeration.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    Dat over exaggeration.
    He is right though. We already are having massive issues with KJC up in PvP, because we have slow and long hard casts. We can't produce instant Pyros, root people or teleport away at a moments notice (with a glyph even in any direction like some kind of UT jump) outside of Arena circles. We are basically dead in the water with how Blizzard 'designs' Warlocks.

  8. #388
    In arena's where your playing against competent players, if they see you pop KJC they know that they just need to cc you for 15 seconds and then your mobility/burst has become nothing. Even when you pop KJC your going to need to use your Unending Resolve (big defensive cd) just to prevent interruptions for 8 seconds while you move and cast. Plus taking 10% increased damage if going to hurt us a lot, pretty straight forward. Base line Howl of Terror is fantastic though, lol no ones going to take Demonic Breath over an aoe stun.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by helic View Post
    In arena's where your playing against competent players, if they see you pop KJC they know that they just need to cc you for 15 seconds and then your mobility/burst has become nothing. Even when you pop KJC your going to need to use your Unending Resolve (big defensive cd) just to prevent interruptions for 8 seconds while you move and cast. Plus taking 10% increased damage if going to hurt us a lot, pretty straight forward. Base line Howl of Terror is fantastic though, lol no ones going to take Demonic Breath over an aoe stun.
    why would competent players DR a chain on you through kjc? o.O... you'll probably only get chained through DS...assuming competence. if you're position is decent kjc isn't going to make or break the burst..admittedly.. having alot of dmg coming from a channel needs to be looked at. i just dont see how this makes you a target unless a] you're demon souling or b] you're chasing around a healer trying to land a fear.

    all of that is moot if the notes hold up because every team is going to train you all game every game..

    i do agree with most here that compensation for removing that talent isnt nearly high enough - even though i dont want kjc personally - i feel like we need something really solid in it's place.


    also, what you take in the breath tier is largely comp dependent.
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2013-06-14 at 05:02 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  10. #390
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Would a Glyph that causes Fel Flame to not extend (and therefore not weaken) DoTs make Affliction players happier?
    Since I haven't touched the class in some time, maybe you can answer this question better for me: Is there anything actually good about the old relic that FF extends dots? It seems that it's really more trouble than it's worth, and even when it isn't directly harming you, it still wouldn't really be missed.

    Hence my idea that it should just be removed completely and serve as a "scorch" for locks (does filler damage, and generates fury, embers, and nightfall). Compare having a "scorch" spam filler to having what boomkins/shadow priests have (moonfire and SW:P), I'd rather take the scorch.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Since I haven't touched the class in some time, maybe you can answer this question better for me: Is there anything actually good about the old relic that FF extends dots? It seems that it's really more trouble than it's worth, and even when it isn't directly harming you, it still wouldn't really be missed.

    Hence my idea that it should just be removed completely and serve as a "scorch" for locks (does filler damage, and generates fury, embers, and nightfall). Compare having a "scorch" spam filler to having what boomkins/shadow priests have (moonfire and SW:P), I'd rather take the scorch.
    Well it used to be awesome for Destruction in PvP for extending Immolate, but that DoT is pretty much worthless so...
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Since I haven't touched the class in some time, maybe you can answer this question better for me: Is there anything actually good about the old relic that FF extends dots? It seems that it's really more trouble than it's worth, and even when it isn't directly harming you, it still wouldn't really be missed.
    You've applied/refreshed your dots, then a strong proc appears. Instead of using a shard or spending three casts to apply the proc, you just Fel Flame and then Agony once (Afflic - similar deal but of course much less benefit for Destro. Basically no benefit for Demo).

    I wouldn't say it's common, but I wouldn't say it's rare.

    But I'd give up it extending/refreshing dots if it means we can have something to do while moving that isn't actually worse than doing nothing. I understand they want a cost to movement, but I just want to be able to do something.
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    why would competent players DR a chain on you through kjc? o.O... you'll probably only get chained through DS...assuming competence. if you're position is decent kjc isn't going to make or break the burst..admittedly.. having alot of dmg coming from a channel needs to be looked at. i just dont see how this makes you a target unless a] you're demon souling or b] you're chasing around a healer trying to land a fear.

    all of that is moot if the notes hold up because every team is going to train you all game every game..

    i do agree with most here that compensation for removing that talent isnt nearly high enough - even though i dont want kjc personally - i feel like we need something really solid in it's place.


    also, what you take in the breath tier is largely comp dependent.
    I think that they'll have to buff Breath of Gul'dan to 60/70% and make it baseline as well. Problem is that they'll have to find something that actually competes with Shadowfuryl and Coil.

    Another thing that they could do is maybe bring back the Nightmare effect (movement speed slow after the end of a fear) and buff it up to 50%. Coil becomes baseline, Shadowfury goes back to Destro and Breath stays as it is. All that's left is finding a third talent, but I'll bother with that once somebody agrees with what I'm saying.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Since I haven't touched the class in some time, maybe you can answer this question better for me: Is there anything actually good about the old relic that FF extends dots? It seems that it's really more trouble than it's worth, and even when it isn't directly harming you, it still wouldn't really be missed.

    Hence my idea that it should just be removed completely and serve as a "scorch" for locks (does filler damage, and generates fury, embers, and nightfall). Compare having a "scorch" spam filler to having what boomkins/shadow priests have (moonfire and SW:P), I'd rather take the scorch.
    FF can actually be used in some cleave-situations in destruction PvE. It also sucks as a filler for movement as it costs 20% of our mana as destruction.

    OT: I could also imagine a passive buff that casters get after 3 seconds of standing still, that allows you to finish your current spell while moving if you began casting it while standing still. That way, 'moving out of bad things' won't hurt your dps much/at all, but you couldn't keep your normal rotation up while moving over larger distances by just kind of stutter-stepping and casting towards your target destination. This would let you keep casting Chaos Bolts and channeling Malefic Grasp during small repositionings (due to voidzones spawning and things like that) and it could make a cooldown-based KJC a viable option for fights with bigger acts of movement like for example the durumu maze.

    Thoughts?

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Since I haven't touched the class in some time, maybe you can answer this question better for me: Is there anything actually good about the old relic that FF extends dots? It seems that it's really more trouble than it's worth, and even when it isn't directly harming you, it still wouldn't really be missed.

    Hence my idea that it should just be removed completely and serve as a "scorch" for locks (does filler damage, and generates fury, embers, and nightfall). Compare having a "scorch" spam filler to having what boomkins/shadow priests have (moonfire and SW:P), I'd rather take the scorch.
    There are situations where you'll use it for the dot refresh as affliction, but it's not a regular thing - removing it wouldn't hurt though, it's niche.

    I think the most use I get out of it is killing pet battle pets that are poor quality / critters while trying to force spawns.

    I'd dislike losing it, since while niche it's nice to have - but I'd rather have some form of filler while moving.

  16. #396
    i don't understand why , when a talent is taken by 90% of a class, instead of buff the others two to make them more viable , decide to nerf this one.
    this is only the esiest solution. if you want that warlock take any of the 3 talents , make them attractive , don't nerf the best one to make all of them the same trash.
    Last edited by Zarach; 2013-06-14 at 07:43 AM.

  17. #397
    We want talents to be a choice.
    So we decided to make all of them equally bad, so nobody gives a fuck which of the 3 they click in a drunken mood.

    Fo sho.
    Trylb / Galesin
    Winners never quit, Quitters never win
    Nobody Said It Was Easy

  18. #398
    Best hidden buff, now that we take 10% more damage archimonde's vengeance will do more while I get focus stomped into the ground!

  19. #399
    I am Murloc! roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    Ele - LB
    Mage - fire only and only scorch..
    shadow - ????
    boomkin - ????

    did i miss one ?

    And you want 3 baseline
    Yeeaaahhh, all warlock spells are on a vastly larger spellcast than others. that, and frost has two instant cast spells, that hit very hard. arcane has arcane barrage. idk about boomies, but I know Shamans have short cast times

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 04:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    They do this for every class, though. It's not just him and not just us.

    WoW suffers from creative constipation. It's grown so bad that I'm thinking of leaving WoW forever. They just can't get past the "jump when I SAY jump!" mentality [I've often said it feels like developers started out as 1st Edition Dungeon Masters]

    The fundamental problem is, they go berserk unless YOU play THEIR game THEIR way. It's why subscriber numbers are finally plummeting: at long last, they've pigeonholed everyone into play styles with no flexibility and no meaningful variation, playing a game with no alternative advancement and every ounce of fun sucked out. There's no alternative here, and so people play other games.

    WoW became popular as a broad, flexible MMO. Nothing like that existed before. But, every time they took a step toward flexibility, they took two steps backward -- from MoP talents to pushing overtuned raids near-exclusively to knee-jerk class nerfs to "bring in line" any class that had a fun or unique gameplay element.

    This is why Shamans are still putting sticks in the ground, Paladins are still balanced around Divine Shield, and Windwalker Monk mechanics get called "unique and different" when their "uniqueness" means "gaining nothing from offensive raid cooldowns" (note: they're balanced around them as if they gain full benefits). It's also why the Monk rollout was a complete disaster: the class had to fit their narrow mold, so it got the same thoroughput for much harder mechanics, and -- suprise! -- nobody fucking plays it.

    If anything, the 5.4 KJC nerf proves that they learned nothing from the Monk disaster. If you make Warlock into a ghetto Mage, ghetto Moonkin, ghetto Elemental Shaman...with the same playstyle but a more complex rotation...people won't play it. It's that simple.
    You can't really blame that on the developers.. they are doing their best mostly.. because of PVP.... ALL of this can be traced back to PVP. This shit started because of PVP. classes need to only have the illusion of being unique because while 50% agree with you, the other 50% start bitching and moaning the second a class has a slight advantage.

    the obvious solution that Blizzard is way too stubborn to do. They've openly admitted it. They refuse to make seperate PVP and PVE spells. KJC for instance, moving in pve, the nerfed version in pvp

    We also can't have fun spells, because people exploit them, or people complain "Their class has a fun thing my class doesn't"

    another problem.. Blizzard started to take it in the ass from people who complained.. instead of doing what they wanted to do. I dunno who is making them.. but I bet their artistic freedom is taken away by the higher ups
    Last edited by roahn the warlock; 2013-06-14 at 08:07 AM.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Looks like they removed the passive damage reduction from Moonkin Form and Shadowform, too. Guess the Fel Armor change is part of a greater movement.
    Warlocks have been highly OP since launch in terms of all their abilities, its shocking to me that people are surprised about copping nerfs. They are well deserved. You cannot all honestly sit here and say it is fair that locks have all the perks that they currently have. They haven't gone far enough really but its a good start at least. The dmg reduction nerf was done across the board and is perfectly fine. Locks and ESPECIALLY shadow do not need the extra dmg reduction with the resil change and healing and survival abilities in mop. On shadow priest they def need one of their healing abilities removed as well, pom should go from shadow. The moonkin dmg reduction loss is a bit iffy considering they lost NS as well..but they did add in another heal too balance it.

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