1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Unless they increase Incinerate's base cast time, with the removal of RoF we'll be back to stacking Mastery as before. Without RoF to boost haste's value, Destro hits a brick wall with haste very quickly.
    I was doing testing with rof on ptr earlier today and it would seem that rof has a 25% chance to grant an emberbit after the first tick. The first tick never grants a bit regardless of how many things it is hitting. At one point I gathered about 15 things and with nothing but rof spam I got 3 embers total. From what I can tell this will hinder our aoe a bit.

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Unless they increase Incinerate's base cast time, with the removal of RoF we'll be back to stacking Mastery as before. Without RoF to boost haste's value, Destro hits a brick wall with haste very quickly.
    Even more of a shame due to the new proc system rewarding haste.

    We scale worse with Bloodlust.

    Legendary meta is crap for us. So many reasons to do this.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistire View Post
    I was doing testing with rof on ptr earlier today and it would seem that rof has a 25% chance to grant an emberbit after the first tick. The first tick never grants a bit regardless of how many things it is hitting. At one point I gathered about 15 things and with nothing but rof spam I got 3 embers total. From what I can tell this will hinder our aoe a bit.
    It's probably a bit deserved, but disappointing nonetheless.

    Seems that we're getting pushed further and further to Demo.

  4. #944
    Man, that Gateway nerf is gonna suck. I definitely went through my gate right before EVERY Chaos Bolt from Ebonlocke so that he'd target my Pit Lord. Granted LoS will still work, but, still.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Even more of a shame due to the new proc system rewarding haste.

    We scale worse with Bloodlust.

    Legendary meta is crap for us. So many reasons to do this.
    I would like to see Backdraft changed. It currently reduces mana cost and cast time proportionally such that it's mana cost per cast time is the same, while getting them off faster.

    I forget the exact number of backdraft right now, but for the same of my example let's assume it's a 25% reduction in mana cost and cast time.

    I would like them to change it such that it doesn't reduce mana cost or cast time, but instead increases damage dealt by 25% and increases ember generation by 25% for backdrafted spells.

    This would have the effect of letting us scale more with Haste (as it's harder for us to go sub-GCD), provides us the same ember generation as previously, and also the same damage gain.

    (My numbers are off, but hopefully you get the idea)

  6. #946
    Guys guys, gc has reverted the filler kjc change to the old intended 5.4 15 secs...
    Sigh, and 15% more nerf for soul leech
    And 60 seconds debuff on gateway
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    It's not a question of the bait you use so much as the wrist action when you flick it. You want it to just touch it's tip into the moisture, tease it a few times before letting it plunge fully into the wetness. Then use a swift jerking action to keep it bobbing up and down until the end. Then, when you pull it out you'll get the best end result.

  7. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I don't know that this is true for Destro. Particularly after we lose RoF.
    except that mastery is better than haste for destro, outside of pure 100% single target fights which are relatively rare (and even if it becomes an issue for those 1-2 single target fights we might have next tier, you still have two other specs). and haste still helps for non backdrafted incinerates and for ember dumping past the point where backdraft incinerates hit 1 sec.

    to give you an idea of what i mean by haste capping, shadow scales roughly as well with all secondaries past 18.2k haste (full cd/proc mindflay at 1 sec) as destro does with crit. pretty sure destro gets more out of haste than crit until you gcd cap your chaos bolts. the only thing that kept shadow even remotely competitive in 5.2 was haste scaling, and we're hitting the limit of that going into next tier.
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2013-06-21 at 05:59 PM.

  8. #948
    All I have to say about our Haste scaling is this: Conflag cd needs to scale with haste, ESPECIALLY given our God awful 2-set.

  9. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanrethad Ebonlocke View Post
    Guys guys, gc has reverted the filler kjc change to the old intended 5.4 15 secs...
    Sigh, and 15% more nerf for soul leech
    And 60 seconds debuff on gateway
    The newest PTR build does not reflect the newest internal build. The KJC filler change will be making it's way to the PTR soon enough. Unless they change their minds again of course.

  10. #950
    Im still worried:/
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    It's not a question of the bait you use so much as the wrist action when you flick it. You want it to just touch it's tip into the moisture, tease it a few times before letting it plunge fully into the wetness. Then use a swift jerking action to keep it bobbing up and down until the end. Then, when you pull it out you'll get the best end result.

  11. #951
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    I just realized something, and I hope I am wrong. Blizzard said something along the lines of 'making av more desirable' and I am crossing my fingers and hoping that the soul leech nerf wasnt their solution for making it good....

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexotic View Post
    I just realized something, and I hope I am wrong. Blizzard said something along the lines of 'making av more desirable' and I am crossing my fingers and hoping that the soul leech nerf wasnt their solution for making it good....
    Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but patch 5.3 was merely a set back. Did you honestly believe I would trust the future to some blind, Op-warlock mongrel? Hahahaha... Oh no, no, no, he was merely an instrument, a stepping stone to a much larger nerf! It has all led to this...and this time, you will not interfere!
    Last edited by Narwhalosh Whalescream; 2013-06-21 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Ps, mages are op
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    It's not a question of the bait you use so much as the wrist action when you flick it. You want it to just touch it's tip into the moisture, tease it a few times before letting it plunge fully into the wetness. Then use a swift jerking action to keep it bobbing up and down until the end. Then, when you pull it out you'll get the best end result.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistire View Post
    At one point I gathered about 15 things and with nothing but rof spam I got 3 embers total. From what I can tell this will hinder our aoe a bit.
    On big aoe, you will have embers from incins alone. But... did they just destroyed our cleave from spec that is supposed to be cleave-centric? I wonder what kind of massive buffs they are trying to push, else the spec might be unplayable.

  14. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    On big aoe, you will have embers from incins alone. But... did they just destroyed our cleave from spec that is supposed to be cleave-centric? I wonder what kind of massive buffs they are trying to push, else the spec might be unplayable.
    The RoF nerf changes the number of targets we can effectively AoE from about 4-5 to about 7-8. (# of targets = 10 - (10*crit chance))

    This is a huge change and I have a feeling that Blizzard is underestimating how big the MF/RoF change is for Destruction's viability in raids.


    If they go through with moving damage from MG -> Haunt/DoTs I don't see a niche for Destro anymore. (No big AoE range, worse cleave than Aff/Demo, worse single target)

  15. #955
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    The RoF nerf changes the number of targets we can effectively AoE from about 4-5 to about 7-8. (# of targets = 10 - (10*crit chance))

    This is a huge change and I have a feeling that Blizzard is underestimating how big the MF/RoF change is for Destruction's viability in raids.


    If they go through with moving damage from MG -> Haunt/DoTs I don't see a niche for Destro anymore. (No big AoE range, worse cleave than Aff/Demo, worse single target)
    Yeah, Destro was already behind according to WoL, except on some fights with heavy ember generation thanks to RoF. Remove that and the spec is pretty much dead, a movement that has already started with the Legendary meta & the stuff upgrades. The buffs will have to be consequent...
    That's two Tiers in a row that start with a strong Destro and end with Aff/Demo being much better, there has to be some scaling issue.
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  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Yeah, Destro was already behind according to WoL, except on some fights with heavy ember generation thanks to RoF. Remove that and the spec is pretty much dead, a movement that has already started with the Legendary meta & the stuff upgrades. The buffs will have to be consequent...
    That's two Tiers in a row that start with a strong Destro and end with Aff/Demo being much better, there has to be some scaling issue.
    There is, but Blizzard's stated they don't care about scaling unless it introduces >10-15% variation within a single tier. :/

  17. #957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanrethad Ebonlocke View Post
    Don't look so smug! I know what you're thinking, but patch 5.3 was merely a set back. Did you honestly believe I would trust the future to some blind, Op-warlock mongrel? Hahahaha... Oh no, no, no, he was merely an instrument, a stepping stone to a much larger nerf! It has all led to this...and this time, you will not interfere!
    Ok admittedly, even though this guy gets banned every single time I see him post, that reply made me laugh out loud.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  18. #958
    As long as they are continuing to pull this kind of ridiculous changes out of their ass in the middle of an expansion the more and more i am concluding these game balance guys at Blizzard are just a bunch of clueless retards trying to understand their own fucking game. I mean, reducing the value of a talent down to 15% or increasing the cooldown of a spell by 300%, is this the way you work in the gaming industry? Are the making their budgets in the same manner? Who even thinks like this in any comparable situation: "This value seems a bit inaccurate, lets triple it!" or "Cutting it by 85% makes sense!". And if numbers are more than a bit off the track, why did they even went live after months of testing and numerous PTR patches? Are they really this bad at their jobs? Please enlighten me!

  19. #959
    It seems every expac, Destro starts out strong and ends up weak. Different reasons each time. This time because haste leaves us in the dust.

    Conflag damage could be tied to immolate again.
    Haste could reduce Conflad Cd
    Brusalks suggestion about backdraft is good
    RoF changes could be re-thought

    I'd hate to lose this spec. It is really the most fun I've had in the game in a long time.

  20. #960
    it's not a 'scaling issue' so much as dot snapshotting being an extremely powerful combat mechanic, particularly so for warlocks due to pandemic. since destro gets such low benefit from its dot damage, it becomes quite weak as you introduce very strong short term bonuses (temporary encounter buffs, trinkets, meta proc, and their scaling with berserking/lust) to the game. even if destro does relatively weak overall damage, it still has its usefulness due to chaos bolt cleaving and fights where burst dps is given a premium.

    i mean you compare destro dot damage to the amount that demo (including a proportion of wild imp as effectively as dot damage due to UVLS + doom) or aff gets from dots and you probably get 6-8 times more out of dots as the two currently superior specs. the only thing keeping destro competitive is the fact a burning ember is worth so much immolate/incinerate generation that stacking generated embers with temporary buffs can be quite strong in certain encounters. the fact that meta proc is a +haste proc and not a +damage proc makes it somewhat weaker for destro, and perhaps pushing even more damage into chaos bolt and out of fillers would help good players squeeze more out of cooldown stacking, but unless destro scaling starts flatlining even on fights where you can generate tons of resource from shadowburn i think the real culprit is how strong aff and demo scale relative to just about any other spec in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    All I have to say about our Haste scaling is this: Conflag cd needs to scale with haste, ESPECIALLY given our God awful 2-set.
    you realize that because the conflag bonus is a static duration bonus instead of a static # of charges that it actually scales extremely well with haste? the 4 piece scales even better because you get that static 5 seconds of crit bonus regardless of how long it takes you to generate that ember and the spend it on chaos bolt. if anything, i'd hope they added chaos bolt to the conflag bonus as it could make backdrafted chaosbolts actually worth using, which would add more awareness benefits to destro as well as effectively solve their 'haste problem' which i don't believe actually exists due to how well chaosbolt spending during temporary buffs scales with haste, but that would be an example of easily fixing the perceived problem.

    part of the reason that rain of fire generation had to be nerfed, outside of the fact that it is too strong even right now, is that with the set bonuses from t16 it would basically give you a passive +15% crit chance on any multitarget fight. because warlocks seem to be allergic to looking at the relative power of classes, items, and abilities, the entirety of t16 spriest bonuses are currently around an 8% (of our already poorer scaling and lower to begin with) dps increase combined. even just looking at chaos bolt damage, that's less than most destro warlocks would get out of 15% more chaosbolts (from the crit chance bonus ember generation) plus all chaosbolts dealing 15% more damage (from the crit chance-> %dmg conversion of chaos bolt).
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2013-06-22 at 12:47 AM.

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