1. #1121
    Don't even know if I can play my lock when the patch hits, the mobility nerfs are just too much. Class isn't going to be fun to play anymore.

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  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    Don't even know if I can play my lock when the patch hits, the mobility nerfs are just too much. Class isn't going to be fun to play anymore.
    Hm? We're getting a mobility buff if anything.

  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    True, but isn't their current goal to make PvP more approachable? Isn't Chaos Bolt's problem that it's always frustrating for the one that casts it, gets hit by it, or both? There will be no balance with an ability that is so "excessive". Someone's not going to be happy, and as Nagassh said, currently it's warlocks biting the dust.
    You cannot have an ability that is "easy to interrupt, yet painful if you don't", because everyone gets pissed one way or another.

    I see Chaos Bolt atm, and it's neither practical, neither spec-defining, neither beneficial, neither engaging. So, what's it still doing here? Didn't we spend all of cata complaining about ISF?
    I personally did enjoy Destruction back in Cataclysm the most, but that doesn't mean we should return to that era specifically.

    And I didn't mention those 3 posts to make myself feel good. It was to justify a statement that I made. I don't think of myself as "teh graytast destrolock alivz", there are others that are much better and from which I've learned, it's just that nobody knows them.

    I'm coming out as a condescending, arrogant and nostalgic try-hard PvPer, and that's not the point of all of this
    Ill go over things from a purely Pve Pov first then explain why this transitions to the major pvp problem.

    Pve Goal - Chaos bolt is supposed to feel special to cast, it is meant to be like a nuclear bomb (It is meant to be spec defining)

    This currently doesnt work because we exceed our intended ember generation by a HUGE margin

    Blizzard have to buff Destruction somewhere for 5.4 because it is so not competitive its beyond silly with the Rof nerf.

    Here is the issue,There is 'Nothing' you can buff while keeping there current design intent while keeping the current toolkit because of the following.

    If you buff Chaos bolt / Incin / Conflag you also buff sacrifice and it will end up being stronger than supremacy.

    If you buff immolate ember regen / damage then multi targets becomes a problem.

    If you buff ember regen then we keep our current ember regen and the spec is played 'wrong' in blizzards eyes.

    There is 1 buff i can think of that works from a pve pov and thats buffing the meta gem to be closer to 50% uptime or making backdraft increase damage of incin / chaos bolt instant at 3 stacks.

    All of the above are purely from a pve pov, if i flip the table and look at pvp for a second.

    If you buff damage of any spell people are gna cry a river.

    If you buff the damage / ember regen of immolate it gets dispelled.

    Backdraft giving increased damage could work in this enviroment, but instant Chaos bolt doesnt work (Think Chaos > shadowburn combos)

    The biggest issue with the spec is that what blizzard intend for it to be in pve is the exact opposite of what is needed to work in mop pvp and this isint actually because of destruction being bad by design its because hard casting is so brutally impossible in mop

    Edit - 1 Thing also, if Chaos bolt becomes instant cast then yes we are far to close to fire mages imo.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-07-01 at 01:30 PM.
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  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    These days it's not even worth CBing, it's "spam incinerate while using embers to heal".
    I wouldn't say that's entirely true. During cds, my incin crits for like 55k+ on players, while CB is critting for close to 130k + the DoT (which I really wish would be rolled back into CB's initial damage =/ ). It's definitely worth getting a havoc'd version of one of those bad boys off, but alas the problem comes down to actually getting that cast off in a world where if enemies see a lock big, red, with an egg-like shadow wrapped around 'em there's gonna be interrupts and CC out the ass headed your way (assuming you're not being trained all day every day anyway /lolzyeahrite).
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

  5. #1125
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    Would anyone be able to provide a link to the spell id's for the T16 2-piece bonus procs?

  6. #1126
    Devs have painted destro into a corner somewhat in both pvp and pve. Chaosbolt is one of those things that people complain more about than its actually dangerous. They see a giant green dildo of doom headed towards them with a single large combat log entry and they freak. Same people generally aren't smart enough to look at what a MM hunter, frost/firemage, etc will dump into someone in the same time period and in a manner that is FAR harder to prevent. So partially its just a mental block.

    PVE if you gave locks the 30% dmg vs 30% haste toggle option for backdraft you would still have room to buff ember consuming spells. To make up for the ember generation loss in single target you need to bump all the usual spells by about 30%. Single target would stay the same, aoe ember would plummet which is intended. RoF on the room gave too many embers, RoF in single target just helped the spec scale a bit longer. Run some sims with RoF out of destro's APL and see how bad it is... Probably also see some kind of minor buff to all of destro's spells coef or even a larger crit multiplier for crits.

    PVP chaosbolt seems to have an artificially low cap for how hard its allowed to hit other players. If it can't hit any harder destro needs to have far easier use of it and more frequently. Instant at 3x backdraft fixes that and the 30% ember generation bump would keep things on par with destro's arena generation (not its RBG generation rate which would be nerfed). That change is pve safe since using CB instant would just faceplant your mana. The other solution would be something like uninterruptable chaos bolt casts baseline. Just means we'll be stunned/silenced/etc but the spec needs something. Compared to what other ranged burst looks like you could do both and we would still lag behind ele, mages, and hunters. I don't want to necessarily "feel" like a mage but I want to be able to compete on a similar level to them in pvp.

    I also think 5.4 is a good time to look at some other stuff like "if it has a cooldown it shouldn't have a HP cost", "if it has a cooldown (pet ability) it shouldn't cost energy" (or find some way to make sure that pets use their abilities when we ask them to. How long has the community had issue with delayed interrupts now? Killing ourselves by using spells that are similar to what other classes get without partially HK'ing themselves is one thing when the HP cost is the throttle (eg lifetap/buring rush). Having a cooldown plus HP cost is just double throttle/tax when every empirical number in terms of pvp says the costs are excessive.

    I think unending resolve is fine for a defensive cooldown but lousy as a casting protection cooldown but for some reason blizz thinks marrying the two on a 3 min CD is somehow going to let you cast. Its a virtual 100% guarantee that you will be stunned or otherwise CC'd through it. Every CC in the game is shorter CD. I think its time we get a minor glyph that cuts the dmg redux to 15% but the cooldown to 1 min. That or unglyph'd it should have its CD reduced by CC's on the lock as howl is with being struck.

    Devs need to rethink locks in pvp somewhat. EG aff isn't allowed to powerfully multidot for subjective reasons....so give it feral like single target that is similarly hard to stop. EG destro isn't permitted to hit any harder with CB (subjectively assigned value) so it needs to be able to hit more often and more reliably. There is an expansion worth of pvp data out there and it all pretty much says locks need better tools/mechanics in pvp relative to our peers than what we have had up till now. "But PVE balance...." is the usual counterpoint but these things can easily be done in ways that have been suggested many times. EG giving aff uninterruptable channeled spells having 0 pve bump and a big pvp bump. Look at hunters....uninterruptable powerbolt/chaos-shot that knocks back, instant nukes, uninterruptable permanently mobile filler. Not to mention a pet that can solo cloth. I don't want to be hunters either but the dps delivery mechanics work in pvp while warlocks do not.

    Getting perma tunneled with no way to self peel isn't a fun pvp playstyle. What person do you expect to try pvp on their warlock and enjoy that? Unique is good when its a feel but when unique is special in that your dps delivery mechanics are not pvp compatible while the other ranged are then its a major problem. If the status quo evolves then locks need to evolve with it. Holding locks to cata (or pre cata) standards in MoP mechanics is a mistake. Further hanging all lock balance on a couple broken mechanics then nerfing the mechanics is similarly flawed. IE gateway....using a gateway on CD is the only way not to die to mogoloid tunneling cleaves. Its also probably too good for your team. Blizz should make non lock gateway CD 60 sec and keep the lock debuff at 15 seconds. That would fix it being too strong team wise. That or give locks legit tools vs melee. Make guldan's breath root then 50% snare.

    Also what is the issue with drain life/harvest life being HP/mana negative due to battle fatigue? I'd say they should ignore it, the spell needs buffing in pvp, etc but we still can't even use it since nobody ever gets to channel shadow spells in pvp. For an active survival tool you would think blizz would want it used more since they are on this kick of nerfing passive survival and buffing active survival. Though again some preconceived notion of how much it should (or shouldn't) do holds it back in some PTSD of SL/SL or whatever. When it costs more than it refunds and its nigh impossible to use when you need it that should be a sign the numbers/mechanics aren't right.

  7. #1127
    Should make Chaos Bolt have like a Lava Surge mechanic that puts conflag on C/D for 15 seconds.
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  8. #1128
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    I also think 5.4 is a good time to look at some other stuff like (...)
    I think the major changes will come with the next expansion now. I doubt they will really start modifying the specs in this patch. They will probably just do a little change (either an ember buff on filler or immo, or a damage boost on some abilities) that will make the spec kinda viable until the end of the xpac.
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  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrenka View Post
    Would anyone be able to provide a link to the spell id's for the T16 2-piece bonus procs?
    T16 2-Piece bonus:
    Destructive Influence

    T16 4-Piece bonus:
    Ember Master

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  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by cabana View Post
    Should make Chaos Bolt have like a Lava Surge mechanic that puts conflag on C/D for 15 seconds.
    I wouldn't mind if Backlash proc'd an instant Chaos Bolt. Just nerf the procrate. Backlash needs revised anyway, b/c a free instant incinerate isn't what it used to be when the mechanic was first introduced. Or hell is an instant Chaos Bolt is just really too much to ask for, then make Backlash reset the CD on Conflagarate.
    Last edited by Shadowygoodness; 2013-07-01 at 03:10 PM.
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

  11. #1131
    So funny story, lets look at how valuable haste is gna be in 5.4 with the current situation

    T16 2 part - Zero synergy

    T16 4 part - Zero synergy (10 second hidden CD)

    Incin under the GCD at ridiculously low haste values

    No more Rain of Fire scaling

    So it scales with what, Pet damage and Immolate (and this is stupidly minor), Chaos bolt (the other 2 stats will be better for this)

    Haste 'could' be dead in 5.4 because of all this added together.

    Side note of all this - Sacrifice will become better for single target than Supremacy (unless that gets buffed aswell)
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  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    So funny story, lets look at how valuable haste is gna be in 5.4 with the current situation

    T16 2 part - Zero synergy

    T16 4 part - Zero synergy (10 second hidden CD)

    Incin under the GCD at ridiculously low haste values

    No more Rain of Fire scaling

    So it scales with what, Pet damage and Immolate (and this is stupidly minor), Chaos bolt (the other 2 stats will be better for this)

    Haste 'could' be dead in 5.4 because of all this added together.

    Side note of all this - Sacrifice will become better for single target than Supremacy (unless that gets buffed aswell)
    Sacrifice won't become better for single target than Sup/Serv just because we're losing RoF and all of our haste scaling as a result. GoSac is hugely behind the pet talents for single target, even if you're running a pure mastery build which currently benefits Sac more than Sup/Serv.

    What it will do is make Sacrifice a clear winner for 2 target cleave.


    Haste will be dead as RoF was the majority of the reason for it's value.


    I'm quite happy that we'll be able to just stack Mastery no matter the talent choice. I hate reforging for different fights.

  13. #1133
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    Haste will be dead as RoF was the majority of the reason for it's value.
    I'm quite happy that we'll be able to just stack Mastery no matter the talent choice. I hate reforging for different fights.
    Yay my 20k mastery gear will finally be optimal again \o/
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  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Sacrifice won't become better for single target than Sup/Serv just because we're losing RoF and all of our haste scaling as a result. GoSac is hugely behind the pet talents for single target, even if you're running a pure mastery build which currently benefits Sac more than Sup/Serv.

    What it will do is make Sacrifice a clear winner for 2 target cleave.


    Haste will be dead as RoF was the majority of the reason for it's value.


    I'm quite happy that we'll be able to just stack Mastery no matter the talent choice. I hate reforging for different fights.
    I doubt supremacy will even stay ahead on single target because you will spend so much time casting incin under the GCD, mostly because mastery is a lot lot lot more valuable for dps than what single target sims suggest, but ye point still sorta stands. **Also who the fuck wants to be casting incin under the GCD all the time**

    /bye bye haste yo^

    Edit
    - There is about 2.5k of difference in my sims currently between supremacy and sac. (with Rof)
    - THere is about 1k of difference in my sims currently between supremacy and sac. (without Rof)
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-07-01 at 05:36 PM.
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  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Yay my 20k mastery gear will finally be optimal again \o/
    I wish we got caster cloth to drop at all! I have like no mastery gear because we never get any drops at all. 10-man woes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 10:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I doubt supremacy will even stay ahead on single target because you will spend so much time casting incin under the GCD, mostly because mastery is a lot lot lot more valuable for dps than what single target sims suggest, but ye point still sorta stands. **Also who the fuck wants to be casting incin under the GCD all the time**

    /bye bye haste yo^

    Edit
    - There is about 2.5k of difference in my sims currently between supremacy and sac. (with Rof)
    - THere is about 1k of difference in my sims currently between supremacy and sac. (without Rof)
    You spend so much of your time casting Incinerate under the GCD because we're stacking haste with Sup/Serv. Once RoF is gone and we're back to getting as much Mastery as possible it won't be as much of a concern. That said, that isn't the only reason why Sup/Serv is over Sac for single target. Pets can often just do more than 15% of our damage that benefits from GoSac, and that will be especially true come 5.4 where we're casting a LOT less Chaos Bolts.


    Also, your sim results are odd and not what I would expect. Are you haste stacked for Sup and Mastery stacked for Sac for both tests?

  16. #1136
    Full mastery, i refuse point blank to play like a haste stacked Rof bot, check my armory.

    Also ill 'fix' my first statement - With mastery i believe that Sac will be better than supremacy even on single target.

    Seen as its quite obvious that with the state of destro with Rof removed no one will actually stack haste, thats why im making the assumption that mastery will be the go to stat, this is further bolstered by the fact that haste actually has barely interaction with the spec outside of Rof.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-07-01 at 06:27 PM.
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  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Seen as its quite obvious that with the state of destro with Rof removed no one will actually stack haste.
    except that a nerf to ROF generation makes incinerate generation much more important, especially with static duration t16 set bonuses for filling each ember as well as dumping all of your chaos bolts with the conflag crit buff.

    and lol @ scrubs whining about kjc nerf. warlocks will be able to use all of their fillers while moving faster than ghost wolf (burning rush), and yet that makes it 'not fun'? amazing that it's 'not fun' to play warlocks when they're even stronger in PVE than they were in TBC. unless theres another release garalon/ambershaper where you need combustion spreading to progress, warlocks will be the hands down dominant dps throughout all of t16 - superior scaling and superior set bonuses (considering that they dominated t15 with basically useless set bonuses just because their base class mechanics and stat scaling is so superior) basically guarantee that warlocks will either get a massive numbers nerf or will crush every other class by 20%+ on any fight through SoO progression.

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    except that a nerf to ROF generation makes incinerate generation much more important, especially with static duration t16 set bonuses for filling each ember as well as dumping all of your chaos bolts with the conflag crit buff.

    and lol @ scrubs whining about kjc nerf. warlocks will be able to use all of their fillers while moving faster than ghost wolf (burning rush), and yet that makes it 'not fun'? amazing that it's 'not fun' to play warlocks when they're even stronger in PVE than they were in TBC. unless theres another release garalon/ambershaper where you need combustion spreading to progress, warlocks will be the hands down dominant dps throughout all of t16 - superior scaling and superior set bonuses (considering that they dominated t15 with basically useless set bonuses just because their base class mechanics and stat scaling is so superior) basically guarantee that warlocks will either get a massive numbers nerf or will crush every other class by 20%+ on any fight through SoO progression.
    There is so much wrong with this post but ill try to get it all in.

    - Incinerate Gcd caps at like 6-7k haste, you get this accidently on gear

    - The 2 part scales with Crit, zero interaction with haste

    - The 4 part has less interaction with haste than even crit because of the 10 second hidden CD (you will want to let immolate cap it where possible > precast chaos bolt > use increased crit from conflag and incin to gather embers again. (Generating embers due to haste wont actually be that helpful because of this so you will want your spells to hit harder)

    - Kjc isint even nerfed, its buffed

    - Superior scaling ? ? ? have you seen the scaling from some of the class's, destro currently has some of the worst scaling in the game. (With Rof removed its for sure one of the worst)

    - You havent even seen the majority of the boss's from SoO yet so thats a pretty optimistic statement to say they will dominate and will need a number crush, seen as destro is currently about 20-25% behind the mage specs (Single target)

    Think thats all for now.
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  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    (considering that they dominated t15 with basically useless set bonuses just because their base class mechanics and stat scaling is so superior) basically guarantee that warlocks will either get a massive numbers nerf or will crush every other class by 20%+ on any fight through SoO progression.
    Care to point out where we've been "dominating" every other class in T15? We've been strong, certainly, but there's a difference between that and dominating, there are few to no fights where other classes can't keep just fine if played well.

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    There is so much wrong with this post but ill try to get it all in.
    getting in more chaos bolts with the static duration buffs = more damage. and even with the 10 sec icd on the buff (which is because the previous version was like a 30% dps boost during aoe) you still get lots of mileage out of haste for dumping when you can also generate cinders from shadowburn. the number nerf isn't for destro in particular, mostly for demo which is currently set to scale like crazy going into t16.

    even if destro isn't ideal for every fight, warlocks will still have at least one spec per encounter which will dominate. note that my comments on warlock superiority were on warlocks, not destro. but maybe you can learn to read before responding next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Care to point out where we've been "dominating" every other class in T15? We've been strong, certainly, but there's a difference between that and dominating, there are few to no fights where other classes can't keep just fine if played well.
    t15 progression meters were all warlocks & tanks, except for fire mages on twin consorts and scumbagging on tortos.
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2013-07-01 at 08:41 PM.

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