1. #1261
    TLR'd the post due to some of the info being wrong, but this part i wanted to address still

    To change the way Dots interact with temp haste buffs, if they no longer dynamically updated or no longer were able to snapshot it would mean that your dot ticks would be the same no matter what (changed ofc by your gear rating).

    This would keep the scaling of a lot of specs in line, would this be a good or bad change (ofc assuming damage was based around it)

    Thoughts
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-07-08 at 04:15 AM.

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  2. #1262
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Wait, is this conversation really happening? Aff out AoE Demo in a 10 second period? I literally can't react to that statement without getting infracted.
    Then you literally have no idea what you're talking about... You do realize the new mannoroths fury only gives a dps increase to seed, immo aura/hellfire, and rain of fire yes?

    Seed of corruption, with all my procs up ( before the 5.4 trinkets were available for testing ), my seeds were critting for 600k ( per target )..... Yea... atm affliction has the highest burst aoe within the mannoroths fury window... EASILY.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    How exactly are we more cookie cutter than say, Hunters? All 3 specs are 2-3 instant casts followed by 2 Steady/Cobra shots, and 2-3 more instant casts. Rinse, repeat, and literally don't modify at all for AoE. Demonology, for example, has one of the most original designs in the game thanks to things like HoG weaving, our AoE, our opener being more than 3 buttons, and stance dancing, which literally no other spec in the game currently does, other than Dps Warriors on the rare occasion that they're taking zero damage and Battle Stance begins to generate more Rage than Berserker. On 90% of the fights in ToT (Excluding only Normal Durumu and 10 man Lei Shen) Demonology doesn't take KJC, they pool a small amount of Fury for anticipated movement and they ToC through it.
    After reading your last three posts.... Im done reading the warlock discussion forums. The shit out of your mouth has been rediculous... especially considering you just mentioned you just came back to the game... AKA YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF HOW THE ACTUAL GAMEPLAY WORKS. Thanks, good bye warlock forums, good bye.


    Infracted for flaming
    Last edited by xskarma; 2013-07-08 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #1263
    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    Then you literally have no idea what you're talking about... You do realize the new mannoroths fury only gives a dps increase to seed, immo aura/hellfire, and rain of fire yes?

    Seed of corruption, with all my procs up ( before the 5.4 trinkets were available for testing ), my seeds were critting for 600k ( per target )..... Yea... atm affliction has the highest burst aoe within the mannoroths fury window... EASILY.

    - - - Updated - - -



    After reading your last three posts.... Im done reading the warlock discussion forums. The shit out of your mouth has been rediculous... especially considering you just mentioned you just came back to the game... AKA YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF HOW THE ACTUAL GAMEPLAY WORKS. Thanks, good bye warlock forums, good bye.
    Pretty much this. Currently on the PTR, affliction with Mannoroth's Fury is By FAR the best Burst AOE for warlocks. Demo just doesnt compare.

  4. #1264
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    Pretty much this. Currently on the PTR, affliction with Mannoroth's Fury is By FAR the best Burst AOE for warlocks. Demo just doesnt compare.
    And destro is left being mediocre because it only affects Rain of Fire.

    /cry

  5. #1265
    Ye but they clearly arent finished with that, there is no way they will leave a 90 talent that bad for a spec, thats like 1 extra incinerate per target once per minute.

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  6. #1266
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Ye but they clearly arent finished with that, there is no way they will leave a 90 talent that bad for a spec, thats like 1 extra incinerate per target once per minute.
    I think they'd have to do an awful lot to bring AV and MF in line with KJC. The fact that new MF is wiping out Affliction's singular weakness - turning it into one of its strengths is testament to that.

  7. #1267
    If MF is as good as you people say it is for Affliction, and I assume it is, that's wonderful... Maybe too wonderful?
    On the other hand, taking MF to burst some mobs down has to be very important for the fight not to take KJC, Affliction without MG on the move feels crippling and somewhat stupid.

    But who know's what they'll do, they will likely find a good balance. And I assume the talents are there so that pick the "best" one for every encounter, leaving you somewhat crippled at other mechanics but the one you specced for.

    Would be cool if they added Fire and Brimstone to the MF list to, making it ultra strong for when MF is active.

  8. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    Then you literally have no idea what you're talking about... You do realize the new mannoroths fury only gives a dps increase to seed, immo aura/hellfire, and rain of fire yes?

    Seed of corruption, with all my procs up ( before the 5.4 trinkets were available for testing ), my seeds were critting for 600k ( per target )..... Yea... atm affliction has the highest burst aoe within the mannoroths fury window... EASILY.

    Ignoring the flames, let's get down to the meat of your post... Your SoC crits for 600k per target on live. That's a 600k non-crit with MF active on the PTR. Considering your attitude, I'm going to assume that you're gear is probably considerably better than mine is. Let's look back at my post about numbers for a moment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Two Fel Storms, 2 Chaos Waves, Immolation Aura and Harvest Life. With my gear, (shitty 521 ilvl (I just resubbed, btw, new job)) without MF or raid buffs, Immolation Aura ticks for 13k with DS and Synapse Springs up, 16.5k per tick of Fel Storm, from 2 Fel Guards, Chaos Wave hits for 97k each and Harvest Life is ticking for 10k. Immo Aura and Harvest Life each tick every .78 seconds due to Haste, Fel Storm ticks every second, and after 6 seconds of Fel Storm, there should be 4 Legion Strikes for 26k each (2 from each Guard). in 10 seconds, that's about 850k damage on a single target.
    So, 850k damage per target (feel free to re-do my math, or test it with your own gear), with my crap gear and without MF buffing Immolation Aura, and with zero crits against SoC's 600k per target with MF active and better gear. I'm not saying that Aff won't be great at burst AoE in 5.4 (it will be great at it), but to sit here while the patch is still in PTR and make claims that Aff will out-do Demonology in burst AoE without even doing the math is just silly.

    Feel free to remove the foot from your mouth.

    Above and beyond the above, there's one key point to this entire discussion that people seem to be forgetting, that Lemie and several others have stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemie View Post
    On the other hand, taking MF to burst some mobs down has to be very important for the fight not to take KJC, Affliction without MG on the move feels crippling and somewhat stupid.
    To elaborate, we'll look at Durumu. Back when that was progression and one of the key factors of the fight was killing walls, if the current PTR iteration of MF and KJC were live and Demonology and Destro were not options, would all of you honestly choose MF over KJC? Your wall damage would be phenomenal, yes, but your colorblind damage as well as your maze damage would be pitiful. Remember that the enrage on Durumu was an issue when it was current, Blood Legion only beat it by 2.2 seconds on the World First kill. With those three points, (Amazing wall damage, terrible damage the rest of the fight, and the berserk being a challenge) what would you have gone with? MF or KJC?
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-07-08 at 10:45 AM.

  9. #1269
    I wonder if Legendary Cloak Effect will show in demon form

  10. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    Pretty much this. Currently on the PTR, affliction with Mannoroth's Fury is By FAR the best Burst AOE for warlocks. Demo just doesnt compare.
    i have to admit i havent tested it out on the ptr but if this is idd correct, it is certainly a step in the right direction, seed of corruption have been a horrible aoe option lately, so it would be very nice to have Seed worth casting now, atleast with MF, even if it is only 10 secs every 60 secs.

  11. #1271
    Quote Originally Posted by Rgthreex View Post
    I wonder if Legendary Cloak Effect will show in demon form
    I deeply wish it doesn't.

  12. #1272
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    So, 850k damage per target (feel free to re-do my math, or test it with your own gear), with my crap gear and without MF buffing Immolation Aura, and with zero crits against SoC's 600k per target with MF active and better gear. I'm not saying that Aff won't be great at burst AoE in 5.4 (it will be great at it), but to sit here while the patch is still in PTR and make claims that Aff will out-do Demonology in burst AoE without even doing the math is just silly.
    Do your loved math all you want, go on the ptr and test it. Affliction is doing more damage. Period.

    Also, if you can't play affliction without KJC, something is wrong. Our Damage on Durumu as affliction (if this current iteration of the PTR was live) would have actually been better than demo, speccing MF. My guild killed Heroic Durumu roughly two weeks after Blood Legion did, and both of our warlocks actually specced Destruction purely for wall damage. We killed the fight with very little time on enrage as well. Your scenario proves nothing.
    Last edited by Xyronic; 2013-07-08 at 05:16 PM.

  13. #1273
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    Do your loved math all you want, go on the ptr and test it. Affliction is doing more damage. Period.
    "Math doesn't matter, I'm right you're wrong."

    Okay then, this conversation is clearly pointless. Have a nice day.

  14. #1274
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Ignoring the flames, let's get down to the meat of your post... Your SoC crits for 600k per target on live. That's a 600k non-crit with MF active on the PTR. Considering your attitude, I'm going to assume that you're gear is probably considerably better than mine is. Let's look back at my post about numbers for a moment...

    A) my seed is NOT critting for 600k per target on live.
    B) your numbers have no actual backup, they are just "assumed" numbers based off your imagination, considering you actually HAVENT PLAYED the specs.
    C) Affliction is flat-out out dpsing demo in a 10 second burst AoE window during Mannoroths. Period. End of Story. The math is there, and the play is there.
    D) No one is saying Demo isnt going to be a great spec with great utility... we are simply saying in a 10 second burst aoe window, affliction has the stronger aoe... Not every fight is going to be durumu, and regardless, if played correctly with the new felflame changes the dps is going to be a drop during the maze... but its not going to be as big of a drop as it currently is.
    E) Please stop spreading your opinion and theoretical imagined napkin math as fact, because it is nothing more than wrong.
    Last edited by Cebel; 2013-07-08 at 05:25 PM.

  15. #1275
    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    A) my seed is NOT critting for 600k per target on live.
    I just went back and re-read your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    Seed of corruption, with all my procs up ( before the 5.4 trinkets were available for testing ), my seeds were critting for 600k ( per target )..... Yea... atm affliction has the highest burst aoe within the mannoroths fury window... EASILY.
    So, correction, you're critting for 600k with all of your trinket procs up on the PTR. The testing I did yesterday, (Yes, the numbers I presented were the result of testing) were done with DS active, and no intellect procs at all, with lesser gear and with no MF. Again, you're burying yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    B) your numbers have no actual backup, they are just "assumed" numbers based off your imagination, considering you actually HAVENT PLAYED the specs.
    Again, my numbers are the result of testing. You seem pretty obsessed about me not playing for a grand total of 3 weeks while I was transitioning into a new job. If you'd like, I'll fraps my testing, and even provide logs if it will help you feel better about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    C) Affliction is flat-out out dpsing demo in a 10 second burst AoE window during Mannoroths. Period. End of Story. The math is there, and the play is there.
    I've yet to see any math on the subject, all I've seen so far is a handful of posts making claims. Provide proof, and I'll gladly eat crow.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    D) No one is saying Demo isnt going to be a great spec with great utility... we are simply saying in a 10 second burst aoe window, affliction has the stronger aoe... Not every fight is going to be durumu, and regardless, if played correctly with the new felflame changes the dps is going to be a drop during the maze... but its not going to be as big of a drop as it currently is.
    There's nothing wrong with this statement, but unless there's another fight that has an extreme burst AoE requirement, no one is going to take MF over KJC as Affliction unless there's a fight with nearly no movement and a burst AoE phase. A dps loss is a dps loss, and no good player is going to take a dps loss on their main target for the sake of extra burst on some adds that don't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    E) Please stop spreading your opinion and theoretical imagined napkin math as fact, because it is nothing more than wrong.
    Again, another example of someone saying "I'm right, you're wrong". Its not helpful.
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-07-08 at 05:56 PM.

  16. #1276
    I could put theoretical numbers in my posts, but that wouldn't make me any more right than you. I don't post very often on these forums. (hence my post count versus yours) When I post, I don't post to discuss, I post to inform. If someone in a top level guild with top level parses was telling me what their experience with the specs were on the PTR, I would actually listen to them. Not come up with bogus napkin math and try to make them look stupid.

  17. #1277
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    I think it might be wise to start providing screenshots, logs, etc since this discussion is just getting out of control with "I'm right, you're wrong" posts.
    Aside from that, keep it nice guys, no need to start bashing each other because you have a different opinion.

  18. #1278
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    I think it might be wise to start providing screenshots, logs, etc since this discussion is just getting out of control with "I'm right, you're wrong" posts.
    Aside from that, keep it nice guys, no need to start bashing each other because you have a different opinion.
    Feel free to view our PTR logs under Vigil - Mal'Ganis US I suggest this guy with his napkin math that is clearly misinformed check it out.

    Also, people posting their napkin math as fact, is why these forums have degraded into the status of elitist jerks over the past expansion.


    Edit:

    Here is a log from one of our longer attempts on testing this afternoon, on a fight where adds spawn on a 1 minute timer. To compare affliction and demo burst aoe myself and xyronic played each respective spec, both of us using mannoroths fury.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4128&e=4411

    As you can see... affliction is crushing the adds in comparison to demo, and is rather consistent in its burst effectiveness between different waves of adds ( meaning RNG is less of a factor ), while demo relies heavily on having the right procs during the burst to even keep up.

    Demo did have higher boss damage, but at the cost of a large amount of add damage.

    Edit #2:

    Heres another log for you to sink your teeth in ( i believe this one is slightly longer than the previous as well )

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3561&e=3895


    ALSO! Keep in mind this is done on the PTR, with 520 ilvl scaling, using UVLS and the new 84% trinket. So, saying its because of gear is an ineffective argument.
    Last edited by Cebel; 2013-07-08 at 07:15 PM.

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by evertonbelmontt View Post
    I deeply wish it doesn't.
    based on blue responses, looks like it does

  20. #1280
    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    Feel free to view our PTR logs under Vigil - Mal'Ganis US I suggest this guy with his napkin math that is clearly misinformed check it out.

    Also, people posting their napkin math as fact, is why these forums have degraded into the status of elitist jerks over the past expansion.


    Edit:

    Here is a log from one of our longer attempts on testing this afternoon, on a fight where adds spawn on a 1 minute timer. To compare affliction and demo burst aoe myself and xyronic played each respective spec, both of us using mannoroths fury.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4128&e=4411

    As you can see... affliction is crushing the adds in comparison to demo, and is rather consistent in its burst effectiveness between different waves of adds ( meaning RNG is less of a factor ), while demo relies heavily on having the right procs during the burst to even keep up.

    Demo did have higher boss damage, but at the cost of a large amount of add damage.

    Edit #2:

    Heres another log for you to sink your teeth in ( i believe this one is slightly longer than the previous as well )

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3561&e=3895


    ALSO! Keep in mind this is done on the PTR, with 520 ilvl scaling, using UVLS and the new 84% trinket. So, saying its because of gear is an ineffective argument.

    You're playing Sacrifice Demo on a parse where we're supposed to be comparing burst AoE damage.
    You're not using Harvest Life or Void Ray after your Chaos Waves for burst AoE.
    Come back with a meaningful parse where you're not using Soul Fire as part of your AoE rotation, please.

    This entire "I'm from Vigil, I'm better than you, you need to listen to everything I say and don't you dare question it" attitude needs to go. There's no place for egos in a discussion thread, and both of you are flexing yours.

    Edit: Inb4 the post I know is coming... Don't tell me about how Sac is better than Service for the fight, and that's why you're using it. That's not the point of this discussion. The point is one simple question: Which spec can do more AoE burst in a 10 second window, Demonology or Affliction. That means playing Demonology properly for Burst AoE, Immo Aura, Double Wave, Double Felstorm, Carrion Swarm, Harvest Life. Not Immolation Aura, one HoG and Soul Fire spam like your parse shows.
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-07-08 at 07:46 PM.

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