1. #1741
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxDD View Post
    So on another note, that change to demo's Dark soul now makes it so its no longer effected by amp, thats quite interesting.

    Used to be rating, now just flat 30% (Trinket only effects rating)
    that sounds like a fix, since the other specs version of DS did not benefit from the trinket. Ideally the spec should not be balanced around how a trinket idiosyncratically synergizes with a spec-ability.

    let's hope demo is re-balanced to compensate

  2. #1742
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    I'm not seeing a real good argument for the new KJC being "essential" in any encounter, or even being all that desirable versus the other two.
    Only thing that would make KJC essential for demonology, would be a Lei shen Heroic type fight, where your dps capability while standing still is extremely limited and you need to pool a steady amount of DF for AoE purposes, where the targets are clumped. This would mean that KJC would give an advantage over MF and AD, because the targets aren't spread, and due to high movement requirements, pooling DF with soul fire isn't an option and fel flame doesn't generate enough DF to compete with KJC shadow bolt, making KJC "essential" for the best performance.

  3. #1743
    "Dark Soul: Knowledge Your soul is infused with demonic knowledge, increasing your Mastery by 18,000 the effects of Mastery: Master Demonologist by an additional 30% for 20 sec. Can be cast in Metamorphosis. Warlock - Demonology Spec. 5% of Base Mana. Instant. 2 min cooldown."

    Serious nerf for the ampli trinket. Because right now you dont only gain 84% from the gears mastery but 84% from gear + dark soul. My PTR Char: 18k Dark Soul + 10k Mastery on Gear = 28k * 84% = ~ 23.5k = 51.5k Mastery = ca. 86% Mastery.

    With the Change 10k from gear * 84% = 18.4k Mastery (~39%) + 30% Dark Soul resulting in ~ 80% Mastery (is it multiplikative or additive?) which is a 6% loss in caster and a 18% loss in Meta form compared to the live dark soul killing a lot of our synergy.

    Pretty rough math but i hope its clear what i was trying to say.

    Edit: damn, my post writing took far too long
    Last edited by Apero; 2013-07-15 at 05:05 PM.

  4. #1744
    High Overlord Puppy's Avatar
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    Looks like you never attained UVOLS huh? With that trinket it makes GoSac an all time dps increase
    For demo that is
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    It's essentially useless now. Which spec is going to take it? Demo PvE will be taking either AD or MF depending on the fight. Demo PvP will be taking AD since CCs aren't affected by KJC anymore. Affliction and destruction PvE are in the exact same boat as demo pve. AD is just looking very powerful and if they fix MF for destro you'll want to take it for destro AoE as well. The fel flame buff and affliction changes would've reduced the value of KJC as is on live anyways. As for PvP, CC missing from KJC is already big enough to make it nearly useless. Add the AD changes and you'll never want to take KJC. They already ruined MF for PvP since its value for demo was in the increased radius for HoG/chaos wave and its value for destro was in both RoG ember generation and F&B aoe damage in RBGs.

  5. #1745
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    that sounds like a fix, since the other specs version of DS did not benefit from the trinket. Ideally the spec should not be balanced around how a trinket idiosyncratically synergizes with a spec-ability.

    let's hope demo is re-balanced to compensate
    why should it be rebalanced to compensate? it makes sense to make dark soul knowledge into a flat percentage when both destro's and afflic's gives you a flat percentage. should be glad they arent changing the mastery buff to a flat 5% since afaik the spellhaste buff is a flat 5%, ofc this could still change.

  6. #1746
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    I shall defer to the master.
    That depends on your strategy really. Most people I've seen just keep the adds stacked up and never move them more than 30 yards. For any movement you do have while AoEing you can just drop a RoF and double conflag while running. The old MF might have been useless for that fight, but the 100% increase in damage definitely puts it above KJC for any kind of AoE. I just really don't see where being able to cast a single spell while moving would be better than the other two choices.

  7. #1747
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyhymnia View Post
    Looks like you never attained UVOLS huh? With that trinket it makes GoSac an all time dps increase
    For demo that is
    well, i get better results with GoServ than GoSac as demo but i also only have the crappy lfr version but ive seen plenty of demolocks, even in high end raiding use GoServ as well, so i dont really think there is that big of a difference that its really worth it, comes down to preference, shouldnt go after what simcraft says tho, particularly for demo since its APL is wonky.

  8. #1748
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyhymnia View Post
    Looks like you never attained UVOLS huh? With that trinket it makes GoSac an all time dps increase
    For demo that is
    ?? Did you quote the right person? I was talking about the lvl 90 talent tier, not the 75 one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vutk View Post
    Only thing that would make KJC essential for demonology, would be a Lei shen Heroic type fight, where your dps capability while standing still is extremely limited and you need to pool a steady amount of DF for AoE purposes, where the targets are clumped. This would mean that KJC would give an advantage over MF and AD, because the targets aren't spread, and due to high movement requirements, pooling DF with soul fire isn't an option and fel flame doesn't generate enough DF to compete with KJC shadow bolt, making KJC "essential" for the best performance.
    You wouldn't think that the new MF would outweigh the ability to cast shadowbolts while moving? Especially since AoE is so important that fight and you won't be able to cast soulfire while moving during execute. You'll get next to 0 benefit out of KJC during execute.

  9. #1749
    Demo Dark Soul change is unexpected, I wonder what sparked that particular idea.
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  10. #1750
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    well, i get better results with GoServ than GoSac as demo but i also only have the crappy lfr version but ive seen plenty of demolocks, even in high end raiding use GoServ as well, so i dont really think there is that big of a difference that its really worth it, comes down to preference, shouldnt go after what simcraft says tho, particularly for demo since its APL is wonky.
    GoSac actually increase your wild imp damage and UVOLS gives you a crapload of imps when used properly with doom, which is why Sac is such a DPS increase with the trinket.

  11. #1751
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Demo Dark Soul change is unexpected, I wonder what sparked that particular idea.
    Consistency I would imagine. You know they claim to love that.

  12. #1752
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    Consistency I would imagine. You know they claim to love that.
    It's only consistent when they're nerfing.

  13. #1753
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Demo Dark Soul change is unexpected, I wonder what sparked that particular idea.
    It is not a change. 18k mastery = 30% as caster.

  14. #1754
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammon View Post
    It is not a change. 18k mastery = 30% as caster.
    Likely just to make it consistent in the language of it, and make it so it works at every level (i.e. when we get to level 95 at some point this will still work, while 18k rating will not).

    EDIT: Does anyone remember why it wasn't this way before? why they made it rating instead of %? I vaguely remember a problem during beta, but can't remember what it was. :S
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  15. #1755
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammon View Post
    It is not a change. 18k mastery = 30% as caster.
    As Caster yeah, but as Meta it will be a nerf if it is just a 30% flat increase.

  16. #1756
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    why should it be rebalanced to compensate? it makes sense to make dark soul knowledge into a flat percentage when both destro's and afflic's gives you a flat percentage. should be glad they arent changing the mastery buff to a flat 5% since afaik the spellhaste buff is a flat 5%, ofc this could still change.
    the problem is that Mastery is not a % based multiplier. Every single spec has a unique mastery multiplier. that is why, unlike the 5% crit buff, and the 5% Sp haste buff, and the 10% melee haste buff mastery HAS to Always be a rating number and a %.

    this is just a tooltip change to make it sound more consistant. It is not change at all mechanically
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2013-07-15 at 05:56 PM.

  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    We simply want all three talents to be viable choices. In the current ptr iteration, KJC is b useless.
    If by 'useless' you mean 'situational', the yes. Being melodramatic only makes you look silly. All the talents are situational now and will be largely encounter specific as to which is better. It's up to Blizzard to design differing and unique encounters to let each talent shine.

    The idea KJC currently is 'useless' is laughable. Maybe if Blizzard said every encounter in future will have 0 movement and be like Patchwerk 1.0 you'd have a point. Lets repeat again - it's situational - just like the others are. And that sounds like exactly the sort of dilemma/opportunity cost talents should have and force you into thinking about.

  18. #1758
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    If by 'useless' you mean 'situational', the yes. Being melodramatic only makes you look silly. All the talents are situational now and will be largely encounter specific as to which is better. It's up to Blizzard to design differing and unique encounters to let each talent shine.

    The idea KJC currently is 'useless' is laughable. Maybe if Blizzard said every encounter in future will have 0 movement and be like Patchwerk 1.0 you'd have a point. Lets repeat again - it's situational - just like the others are. And that sounds like exactly the sort of dilemma/opportunity cost talents should have and force you into thinking about.
    "Useless" is melodramatic, but proposed KJC is pretty clearly lagging behind the other two in most situations.

    As for it being strictly situational, that flies in the face of their stated goal of talents being both something the higher-end users could change per encounter, and the more "casual" users could "set and forget".

  19. #1759
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    i find 'underwhelming' to be the WoW lingo-term that is most accurate.

    Certainly not useless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    "As for it being strictly situational, that flies in the face of their stated goal of talents being both something the higher-end users could change per encounter, and the more "casual" users could "set and forget".
    No, I think really most casuals (myself included) could basically set and forget any of these talents. (Unlike in 5.3 where i can set and forget either KJC or MF; but can not get anything more than a strictly marginal [like 0.8%] dps contribution from AV.). Though as a destro player MF in 5.4 looks like it will be weakest for me.

    And i think an elite player would know when to use each talent to its full benefit.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2013-07-15 at 06:38 PM.

  20. #1760
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    If by 'useless' you mean 'situational', the yes. Being melodramatic only makes you look silly. All the talents are situational now and will be largely ncounter specific as to which is better. It's up to Blizzard to design differing and unique encounters to let each talent shine.

    The idea KJC currently is 'useless' is laughable. Maybe if Blizzard said every encounter in future will have 0 movement and be like Patchwerk 1.0 you'd have a point. Lets repeat again - it's situational - just like the others are. And that sounds like exactly the sort of dilemma/opportunity cost talents should have and force you into thinking about.
    Perhaps not useless since it does still give a benefit, however it is useless in the sense that as it stands in this current iteration of the ptr, you will simply never use it for any kind of relevant content.

    In PvP, none of the specs are going to take it. AV is simply superior for every spec by giving you the extra DS. Literally no halfway competent demo lock ever is going to take this version in PvP. Affliction doesn't need it since the damage shift to DoTs and haunt none of which are affected by it. Destro also doesn't need it since fel flame got buffed and you can't use it for the spells you really need it for, mainly fear and CB. So again, this talent is simply not going to be used in PvP. Maybe some very few affliction locks will take it.

    As for PvE, the exact complexity of encounters nowadays is actually what makes the other two talents even better. You can hardly find a fight in which there aren't a few burst/Increased damage phases for which you don't have DS up, but taking AV will enable you to. Similarly, a huge number of fights now have adds and aoe phases for which MF will be better.

    Just keep in mind that the true value of KJC is the dps value of taking it minus what you're losing out by not taking the other talents. If KJC gives say a 10k dps increase on a fight, what's the dps increase of taking AV or MF. You also have to take into consideration that locks aren't old school arcane mages. We already have a pretty decent damage potential while moving without the talent. So really, how much extra dps does being able to channel something like MG while moving give over simply playing the way you used to? You know, refreshing DoTs while moving, spamming fel flame, stutter stepping. And then, is that dps really worth not having AV or MF?

    Just look at the specs. Demo already has excellent mobility, KJC doesn't let you cast SF while moving and you either have to spam sb during execute or the talent does nothing for you then.

    Affliction just had a bunch of damage moved towards DoTs and away from MG on top of the fel flame buff.

    Destro just got a huge movement buff through fel flame and you can always time your conflags for movement.

    So yes, you're right, it's not useless. It's just too far behind the other two talents to be taken by anyone trying to min max. It'll be nice for convenience since you won't have to think much while moving, but the dps increase will not be significant in any kind of situation outside of a fight where you have to move for 70% of it.

    Can't believe you guys are actually arguing out semantics with me though. It's so underwhelming it might as well be useless. I've given more than enough examples for what I'm talking about. Stop focusing on that one word and read what I'm actually saying.
    Last edited by Kildragon; 2013-07-15 at 07:01 PM.

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