1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The changes so far are misguided and will cause more problems than they fix.

    Dev Problem = locks are too durable in raids
    PVP Problem = locks are too squishy in pvp
    Actual issue = soul leech stacking to 100% of lock's HP. Cap SL's shield to 30-50% of the lock's HP and leave 10% static dmg reduction in.

    Dev Problem = all ranged cast too much on the move
    Better Solution = allow filler spells to be cast mobile, KJC on use lets all spells. Similar to shaman/hunters. IE we could cast MG/DS, shadowbolt, and incinerate on the move with KJC but nothing else without the on use. Good middle ground.

    Dev Problem = locks have amazing aoe thanks to MF
    Better Solution = make it a passive but compromise on the size from 500% to 250-300%. We don't need another CD...we are getting into button overload again.

    Side effect = 90% of locks will be forced into AV.
    Issue = the on use is almost never a good idea to use since it makes the passive go away. It also is too weak in pvp but making it strong enough in pvp would make standing in stupid a strat in pve.
    Solution = Keep the passive active at all times. Let the on use increase the reflect. Give it separate values pvp and pve. Something like 50% on use pvp, and 10% passive pvp. Compared to the monk version its way too weak. A single hot, shield, etc negates it entirely. As it stands you can get beaten to death and the attacker would be at 95% hp. Anyone NOT make that trade in pvp? Even the on use would make the attacker be at 80%. It should make them a viable swap target at least which is around 50% which is exactly in line with my suggestion.

    Issue affliction pvp: non dr interrupts, stun dr, silence dr, misc other cc's = a 0 casting environment. Since our dots don't do much damage but act more like debuffs to fuel MG damage we need to be able to use MG in pvp. Trying to make dots do all the work is super tough to balance vs pve.
    Solution: make MG, DL, and DS be uninterruptable like hunter steady/cobra.
    Soulution pt2: to help dots be meaningful without messing with pve and without making darksoul+trinket too powerful (since the delta between baseline and that is huge) tie a 30%'ish buff to dots vs players to a new darksoul glyph.
    New darksoul glyph = your darksoul now grants 15% stat gain but has a 60 second cooldown. In addition periodic effects tick 30% harder vs players.

    Destro PVP issue = no way to use chaosbolt vs a team of similar MMR, especially not the "all cd's one every 2 min". Without that spell destroy is too binary on its use and has little to no pressure without it.
    Solution: Since CB was nerfed vs players 25% let it be instant at 3x backdraft. Not out of line whatsoever compared to pyroblast streaks vs frozen, frostmage instants/procs, or even ele burst via instant procs, and certainly not out of line vs hunter "instants".

    Demo PVP issue = DF generation way to slow, losing fury shifting in/out of DA when other classes can use their defensive stances with far less penalty, RNG swings on CW making it hard to balance.
    Solutions: DA to meta shift without complete DF loss. Gain DF when doom is dispelled AND procs an imp. Double normal/pve DF generation vs player targets. (esp if we are not doing anything w' DA) Finally treat CW like CB/soulfire...cut dmg in half, it always crits, scales with crit, revert the old dmg nerf.
    Dev Attitude: we wish DA didn't exist so that's out, we don't want to try to balance demo in pvp so we would rather have you play aff.


    The base issue is that balance aside the 5.4 patch is making warlocks far less fun to play mechanics wise. It making pvp utterly painful in a time when pvp participation is dropping. There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.
    Nice one. Why don't you post this to the official forums as well?
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  2. #362
    There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.
    The one that did was fired and the lead dev actively hates the class.. or at least that's the perception and they're really not doing anything to dispel it.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    The one that did was fired and the lead dev actively hates the class.. or at least that's the perception and they're really not doing anything to dispel it.
    Out of curiosity, where are you getting this?
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The changes so far are misguided and will cause more problems than they fix.

    Dev Problem = locks are too durable in raids
    PVP Problem = locks are too squishy in pvp
    Actual issue = soul leech stacking to 100% of lock's HP. Cap SL's shield to 30-50% of the lock's HP and leave 10% static dmg reduction in.

    Dev Problem = all ranged cast too much on the move
    Better Solution = allow filler spells to be cast mobile, KJC on use lets all spells. Similar to shaman/hunters. IE we could cast MG/DS, shadowbolt, and incinerate on the move with KJC but nothing else without the on use. Good middle ground.

    Dev Problem = locks have amazing aoe thanks to MF
    Better Solution = make it a passive but compromise on the size from 500% to 250-300%. We don't need another CD...we are getting into button overload again.

    Side effect = 90% of locks will be forced into AV.
    Issue = the on use is almost never a good idea to use since it makes the passive go away. It also is too weak in pvp but making it strong enough in pvp would make standing in stupid a strat in pve.
    Solution = Keep the passive active at all times. Let the on use increase the reflect. Give it separate values pvp and pve. Something like 50% on use pvp, and 10% passive pvp. Compared to the monk version its way too weak. A single hot, shield, etc negates it entirely. As it stands you can get beaten to death and the attacker would be at 95% hp. Anyone NOT make that trade in pvp? Even the on use would make the attacker be at 80%. It should make them a viable swap target at least which is around 50% which is exactly in line with my suggestion.

    Issue affliction pvp: non dr interrupts, stun dr, silence dr, misc other cc's = a 0 casting environment. Since our dots don't do much damage but act more like debuffs to fuel MG damage we need to be able to use MG in pvp. Trying to make dots do all the work is super tough to balance vs pve.
    Solution: make MG, DL, and DS be uninterruptable like hunter steady/cobra.
    Soulution pt2: to help dots be meaningful without messing with pve and without making darksoul+trinket too powerful (since the delta between baseline and that is huge) tie a 30%'ish buff to dots vs players to a new darksoul glyph.
    New darksoul glyph = your darksoul now grants 15% stat gain but has a 60 second cooldown. In addition periodic effects tick 30% harder vs players.

    Destro PVP issue = no way to use chaosbolt vs a team of similar MMR, especially not the "all cd's one every 2 min". Without that spell destroy is too binary on its use and has little to no pressure without it.
    Solution: Since CB was nerfed vs players 25% let it be instant at 3x backdraft. Not out of line whatsoever compared to pyroblast streaks vs frozen, frostmage instants/procs, or even ele burst via instant procs, and certainly not out of line vs hunter "instants".

    Demo PVP issue = DF generation way to slow, losing fury shifting in/out of DA when other classes can use their defensive stances with far less penalty, RNG swings on CW making it hard to balance.
    Solutions: DA to meta shift without complete DF loss. Gain DF when doom is dispelled AND procs an imp. Double normal/pve DF generation vs player targets. (esp if we are not doing anything w' DA) Finally treat CW like CB/soulfire...cut dmg in half, it always crits, scales with crit, revert the old dmg nerf.
    Dev Attitude: we wish DA didn't exist so that's out, we don't want to try to balance demo in pvp so we would rather have you play aff.


    The base issue is that balance aside the 5.4 patch is making warlocks far less fun to play mechanics wise. It making pvp utterly painful in a time when pvp participation is dropping. There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.
    Making a dots ticks harder via a glyph not a good idea. The dots must tick 30% even 50% harder all the time w/o Dark soul, 10% is just NOT enough.

    The solution in current state of warlocks is let them cast their fillers while moving.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The changes so far are misguided and will cause more problems than they fix.

    Dev Problem = locks are too durable in raids
    PVP Problem = locks are too squishy in pvp
    Actual issue = soul leech stacking to 100% of lock's HP. Cap SL's shield to 30-50% of the lock's HP and leave 10% static dmg reduction in.

    Dev Problem = all ranged cast too much on the move
    Better Solution = allow filler spells to be cast mobile, KJC on use lets all spells. Similar to shaman/hunters. IE we could cast MG/DS, shadowbolt, and incinerate on the move with KJC but nothing else without the on use. Good middle ground.

    Dev Problem = locks have amazing aoe thanks to MF
    Better Solution = make it a passive but compromise on the size from 500% to 250-300%. We don't need another CD...we are getting into button overload again.

    Side effect = 90% of locks will be forced into AV.
    Issue = the on use is almost never a good idea to use since it makes the passive go away. It also is too weak in pvp but making it strong enough in pvp would make standing in stupid a strat in pve.
    Solution = Keep the passive active at all times. Let the on use increase the reflect. Give it separate values pvp and pve. Something like 50% on use pvp, and 10% passive pvp. Compared to the monk version its way too weak. A single hot, shield, etc negates it entirely. As it stands you can get beaten to death and the attacker would be at 95% hp. Anyone NOT make that trade in pvp? Even the on use would make the attacker be at 80%. It should make them a viable swap target at least which is around 50% which is exactly in line with my suggestion.

    Issue affliction pvp: non dr interrupts, stun dr, silence dr, misc other cc's = a 0 casting environment. Since our dots don't do much damage but act more like debuffs to fuel MG damage we need to be able to use MG in pvp. Trying to make dots do all the work is super tough to balance vs pve.
    Solution: make MG, DL, and DS be uninterruptable like hunter steady/cobra.
    Soulution pt2: to help dots be meaningful without messing with pve and without making darksoul+trinket too powerful (since the delta between baseline and that is huge) tie a 30%'ish buff to dots vs players to a new darksoul glyph.
    New darksoul glyph = your darksoul now grants 15% stat gain but has a 60 second cooldown. In addition periodic effects tick 30% harder vs players.

    Destro PVP issue = no way to use chaosbolt vs a team of similar MMR, especially not the "all cd's one every 2 min". Without that spell destroy is too binary on its use and has little to no pressure without it.
    Solution: Since CB was nerfed vs players 25% let it be instant at 3x backdraft. Not out of line whatsoever compared to pyroblast streaks vs frozen, frostmage instants/procs, or even ele burst via instant procs, and certainly not out of line vs hunter "instants".

    Demo PVP issue = DF generation way to slow, losing fury shifting in/out of DA when other classes can use their defensive stances with far less penalty, RNG swings on CW making it hard to balance.
    Solutions: DA to meta shift without complete DF loss. Gain DF when doom is dispelled AND procs an imp. Double normal/pve DF generation vs player targets. (esp if we are not doing anything w' DA) Finally treat CW like CB/soulfire...cut dmg in half, it always crits, scales with crit, revert the old dmg nerf.
    Dev Attitude: we wish DA didn't exist so that's out, we don't want to try to balance demo in pvp so we would rather have you play aff.


    The base issue is that balance aside the 5.4 patch is making warlocks far less fun to play mechanics wise. It making pvp utterly painful in a time when pvp participation is dropping. There seems to be a disconnect in terms of how devs go about "fixing" things suggesting they don't main a lock and tend to not listen to the community when it comes to things that pertain to what makes the class fun to spend time on.
    why hasn't blizzard hired this man

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    Out of curiosity, where are you getting this?
    maybe "actively hates" is strong, but there's a repeated pattern of Ghostcrawler having a "specific vision" for the class and frequently makes moves to curtail the ability to play in a way that deviates from it

  7. #367
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    why hasn't blizzard hired this man
    Because the problem and fixes ain't that easy.

  8. #368
    Replacing Howl with Breath of Gul'Dan is a buff, and I'm glad they finally heard us. Now all they have to do is make it be in line with the other talents, although I doubt that will happen unless some drastic changes are made. Who would take Breath over Shadowfury, which only has 10 more seconds on CD?
    I'm very happy with what they're doing though, design wise at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    why hasn't blizzard hired this man


    In all fairness he'd probably be banned from the forums for "Spamming / Trolling" or "Other". He makes excellent suggestions however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    maybe "actively hates" is strong, but there's a repeated pattern of Ghostcrawler having a "specific vision" for the class and frequently makes moves to curtail the ability to play in a way that deviates from it

    His vision is bad when it's the players that have to deal with the fall out of his dislike for other classes that are not the Mage. People play to have fun, not play as Greg Street tells them to. THIS is why he's such a poor Lead Designer. Instead of embracing what players discover, he actively works to shut it down. There is a degree of enjoyment in finding tactics and new ways to do things. At any rate, as long as he's allowed to continue it without any form of oversight; and as long as situations like CRZ moderation, the recent Services Price cut then announcing of that new Virtual Server thing continue on, we will continue to see subs drop.


    It started with Wrath, and it will continue until many of the problems he contrived are shut down. He's done a lot right, but he's done a lot more wrong. I frankly find it somewhat ironic that we fight a Sha of Pride at the conclusion of this expansion and Ghostcrawler's pride is the chiefest stumbling block of this game.
    Last edited by The Penguin; 2013-06-14 at 12:07 AM.

  10. #370
    Worth mentioning here, an official blue post about the situation that kind of blankets the stuff people have said on twitter and various places. A kind of general here's what we think and feel and what we are planning to do, and what we need you, the players, to do.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The simple fact is that the constant, passive ability to perform a complete DPS rotation while moving was never intended to be a core feature of the Warlock class. Those who remember the early days of Patch 5.0 will recall that, initially, Kil’Jaeden’s Cunning actually increased cast time whenever it was triggered. In those days, that extra cast time made the talent so unattractive that very few players actually took it. We decided to try it as only a snare instead, but that has had the opposite effect: in Patch 5.3, virtually all Affliction Warlocks are using Kil’Jaeden’s Cunning. Remember, we want talents to be meaningful choices. If one talent is far and away superior to its neighbors, there’s a problem. There were also some very strange side effects (such as the ability to cast something like Fear while ducking in and out of line of sight).

    Now, as I mentioned, the ability to always cast on the move wasn’t intended as a core Warlock feature (otherwise, it wouldn’t have been a talent). However, that doesn’t mean we want Warlock DPS to plummet every time there’s a fire on the ground. One thing that may have gone under the radar is the fact that the new version of KJC is not on the global cooldown, and can be cast while another cast is already in process. So, for example, you won’t have to interrupt a Chaos Bolt to activate KJC should you need to react to something in a hurry.

    Furthermore, it’s a change that we’re certainly going to balance around. Remember, we’re very early in what is likely to be a lengthy PTR cycle. There’s plenty of time to tweak and tinker with it. In fact, a recent change made internally allows Haunt to be cast while moving by default. The goal is most certainly not that Warlocks lose out on a ton of DPS or lose viability in raid encounters. We do encourage you to hop on the PTR, experiment with it, and tell us what think once you’ve gotten some hands-on time!
    source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...881?page=7#135
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  11. #371
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    What I take away from it is unfortunately a "We don't like this" therefore even though you all might, too bad. We're going through with it. :\


    Thanks for the update though Xskarma, not what we wanted to hear. But it'll be what it'll be.
    Last edited by The Penguin; 2013-06-14 at 12:11 AM.

  12. #372
    I predict (and hope) there will be a mass exodus away from the warlock class if this goes through. Hopefully then they'll see how ridiculous this change is to our class. We have no spells to use on movement that actually help us, considering that when we overwrite superpowered dots we actually lose dps. The haunt change is even more ridiculous. I'm not wasting shards on it if I can't be channeling MG afterwards. It's just useless. And it seems liek this time they won't back down.

  13. #373
    At this point, i wouldn't be surprised to see the old good GoSac with older values coming back.

  14. #374
    Didn't get a chance to read everyone here, but the nerf to KJC is about as crappy as the affliction 4 pc bonus. Dots are weak without MG and without a huge buff to dots Aff is going to drop off the face of Azeroth. Not that I like this idea, but the only way I can see this working without redesigning the class is to make MG castable while moving. Personally one of my favorite things about locks right now is KJC. Without that they will probably just be Meh...

  15. #375
    2 things, talent being changed because of 1 spec. 1 spec, not all 3 specs. 2nd, casting haunt on the move is retarded. Make Malefic grasp castable while moving and it wont grind affliction into the ground.

  16. #376
    Stood in the Fire WarlockJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    2 things, talent being changed because of 1 spec. 1 spec, not all 3 specs. 2nd, casting haunt on the move is retarded. Make Malefic grasp castable while moving and it wont grind affliction into the ground.
    I'd think we'd be alright if MG could be cast on the move. I'd live through that.

  17. #377
    I agree, Haunt while moving is stupid. I mean let's entertain the thought. It works to an extent, but it's heavily reliant on gear to have the shards to do this while moving. People leveling up and fresh 90's without gear will be screwed over still, cause they simply do not have the shard regen to use Haunt on the move.

    So it wastes valuable resources while only giving us 1 button to push every 8 seconds. That's not nearly enough of a solution for heavy movement fights.

    The iteration remark is good, cause they'll need to try new things to solve this. The fact they don't make MG the spell we can cast on the move from the get go insinuates to me that moving MG was part of the problem they saw and they will do everything to make sure that resorting to that is not necessary. So I'm not holding my breath for MG on the move, tbh, even if that would be the simplest solution to our mobility problems.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  18. #378
    Yeah this KJC nerf is terrible, but as many others have said here, if they at least could make our fillers (MG, shadow bolt, incinerate) castable while moving, we could at least do something useful while on the move.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I agree, Haunt while moving is stupid. I mean let's entertain the thought. It works to an extent, but it's heavily reliant on gear to have the shards to do this while moving. People leveling up and fresh 90's without gear will be screwed over still, cause they simply do not have the shard regen to use Haunt on the move.

    So it wastes valuable resources while only giving us 1 button to push every 8 seconds. That's not nearly enough of a solution for heavy movement fights.

    The iteration remark is good, cause they'll need to try new things to solve this. The fact they don't make MG the spell we can cast on the move from the get go insinuates to me that moving MG was part of the problem they saw and they will do everything to make sure that resorting to that is not necessary. So I'm not holding my breath for MG on the move, tbh, even if that would be the simplest solution to our mobility problems.
    I can't figure out what their problem with MG would be. It seems to me that pvp is one of the main factors bringing this whole debacle about, namely Fear+pillars. MG in pvp is a big purple "please shadow lock me" sign. That they even thought for a brief instant that making Haunt mobile would make any difference at all, let alone be the solution is bewildering.

    Make MG/DS castable on the move baseline with a flat 50% snare, wipe hands on pants. It's that easy. Then you can get to the actual work of making lv 90 talents that don't suck.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    maybe "actively hates" is strong, but there's a repeated pattern of Ghostcrawler having a "specific vision" for the class and frequently makes moves to curtail the ability to play in a way that deviates from it
    They do this for every class, though. It's not just him and not just us.

    WoW suffers from creative constipation. It's grown so bad that I'm thinking of leaving WoW forever. They just can't get past the "jump when I SAY jump!" mentality [I've often said it feels like developers started out as 1st Edition Dungeon Masters]

    The fundamental problem is, they go berserk unless YOU play THEIR game THEIR way. It's why subscriber numbers are finally plummeting: at long last, they've pigeonholed everyone into play styles with no flexibility and no meaningful variation, playing a game with no alternative advancement and every ounce of fun sucked out. There's no alternative here, and so people play other games.

    WoW became popular as a broad, flexible MMO. Nothing like that existed before. But, every time they took a step toward flexibility, they took two steps backward -- from MoP talents to pushing overtuned raids near-exclusively to knee-jerk class nerfs to "bring in line" any class that had a fun or unique gameplay element.

    This is why Shamans are still putting sticks in the ground, Paladins are still balanced around Divine Shield, and Windwalker Monk mechanics get called "unique and different" when their "uniqueness" means "gaining nothing from offensive raid cooldowns" (note: they're balanced around them as if they gain full benefits). It's also why the Monk rollout was a complete disaster: the class had to fit their narrow mold, so it got the same thoroughput for much harder mechanics, and -- suprise! -- nobody fucking plays it.

    If anything, the 5.4 KJC nerf proves that they learned nothing from the Monk disaster. If you make Warlock into a ghetto Mage, ghetto Moonkin, ghetto Elemental Shaman...with the same playstyle but a more complex rotation...people won't play it. It's that simple.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

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