Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Szarala]

Making fel flame castable while moving and buffing dot damage is gonna be just fine for affliction PvP. But last I checked we had 2 other specs and as of now they will actually be hindered by these changes. Fel flame should just stay as is imo. And has anyone read GC's Twitter about soul link going back to its old effect? Cause that's a change I'd be good with.

How is giving our only totem killer and only spell usable after a shadow lockout a cast time, not to mention losing the DoT extension, "good" for Aff pvp?

[kendro1200]

Well, this is one of the few things they're actually consistent with. They're fine with out-of-intent play resulting in nominal performance increase, but not with significant increase.

Do you not see the overall problem if there is a big output difference between the "normal" players and the Super Elite Master Race players?

Except KJC wasn't providing that "output difference" at least not in the same fashion as balance druid solar cleave in Cata. Where if you could game eclipse right on fights you could go anywhere from slightly above average to amazing, but if you gamed eclipse poorly or didn't game it at all you'd be middle to much lower in the pack. Play with KJC right now, you get a 2-3% increase, play with it poorly (just keep spamming filler) and you either kill yourself out of stupidity, or you lose 3-4%. That seems exactly what they want. That isn't the issue that the devs have with KJC, their reason for the change was admitted as already completely irrational. They don't "feel" like warlocks should cast a full rotation on the move. They want hunters to "do that". Because hunters aren't "casters" they're "like ranged melee dps" or "ranged physical dps", "they use weapons to do damage so they can move". It's a stupid double standard, and as already admitted, it's an irrational change. Irrational changes are always bad changes to make, because only one person is ever going to be happy with them and everyone else is going to resent it. With rational changes you can at least reason and display the logic as to why the change needs to occur and at least make most people not unhappy.

[Deleted]

I get what you're saying here. For example on Durumu:

We all know the maze has killed lots of people. It has been a challenge to move. It was more of a challenge to move while DPSing with a snare.

Funny enough HC Durumu is one of the fights you would not want to play Affliction even with the current KjC in place or take KjC as one of the other specs: Both Destruction and Demonology provide wastly superior damage for the Ice Walls and Demonology deals competitive boss damage as well. I never played Durumu with KjC but considering you have to stop and go quite regularly without it I can't see a 30% slow as problematic on that fight.

This is what I meant by tone. You mention additional steps and extra-class abilities in one breath to compensate for the movement penalty then go right back to calling it skill-less in the next.

Yes, I was unaware of your credentials, and maybe it's because of those that you seem to be insensitive to the play of those with less "skill" than yourself.

I usually don't think of myself as an extremely skilled player. If using a pre-placed Demonic Gateway or Demonic Circle is something you consider "skill" I don't even know. Yes, you can't mindlessly keep doing your rotation, but we are talking about one click here.

ISF was good fun, but it was a intended mechanic, the use of rain of fire isnt, that was pretty much down to play style, and again, you didnt need to use it, it wasnt a requirement for single target..., it was never a design element for single target to begin with, players just thought it was and wanted it removed cos they couldnt handle it, not like they needed to use it, cant see how the hell its a mis-design if its the players fault to begin with

I don't play destro so I don't know firsthand, but is it a significant dps increase to use RoF for single target? If it is, then yes, I'd call that a mis-design.

In a pure single target encounter (as in: there is never a second target to hit) it is probably not that huge (maybe a couple hundred DPS), but once you can hit a second target it becomes a significant gain (couple thousand DPS). And because it is a DPS gain even on pure single target people need to use it. The fact that it is not intended has nothing to do with it, it just means that Blizzard is willing to act on it and fix it.

A lost cause? This is the first time someones bothered to respond to my request for an explination as to why the talent is OP, kudos for bothering, but I'd appreciate a less snarky response to an honest question.

If you admit that it's not about numbers, and that our damage is generally in line with every other class, then surely you can also agree that KJC is a necessity, since despite it cutting out the mighty challenge that is movement, we're still only in line with everyone else.

I just struggle to fathom how someone can claim an ability is overpowered for letting us continue dpsing on the move, when said damage is not resulting in an increased performance.

On light (as on for example Jin'Rokh) or even moderate (as on for example Council) movement encounters you will probably be able to basically sustain your current DPS with good play (saving Life Tap/DoT-refreshs for when you have to move or spamming the now no longer recalculating FF). Now you will say "Well, if we do the same damage then why change anything?" and there is a huge difference: Right now we are unaffected by that movement regardless of playerskill, just because Warlocks are "special". Then we are unaffected because of good play and lose DPS if we fuck up. On high movement encounters (like HC Lei Shen) Affliction will lose DPS, but you can just switch to Demonology and be completely fine. That is what has been annoying me the most about KjC: We already had quite some tools to cope with movement, we had a full spec that excells at movement and yet we get KjC?

It's a challange for every class. Not only for warlock, not only for ranged.

KJC did not trivialized it, it makes it harder 'cause you have to think how to move. Without the ability to cast while moving you just move, stop and cast. What's the skill in it? It's a lot harder to output a good dps while moving rather than do it standing still.

I don't see any raeason to call KJC OP, pve speaking, other than "i dond't have so it's OP".

The skill is that you reorder your casts in such a way that you can cast instants while you have to move. And I challenge you to name any fight where the KjC slow is actually relevant and means you have to react significantly faster or move in a different way then another class besides MAYBE HC-Lei Shen (you need to be rather quick on Thunderstruck or use Demonic Leap if your raid doesn't pop a Roar).

[Lucidious]

How is giving our only totem killer and only spell usable after a shadow lockout a cast time, not to mention losing the DoT extension, "good" for Aff pvp?

I didn't say "good" for affliction I said "fine" and the reason is with buffed dot damage and Fel flame not messing with the snapshot it gives the spec slight mobility. But that's about it. I still personally think Fel flame should be left alone. I like the idea of buffing dots and Nerfing MG and if we got old soul link back and they left Fel flame alone I think we would be good. This new Fel flame change just seems so random.

[Azutael]

better idea imo... leave Fel Flame alone, bring back Searing Pain and have THAT be the castable-on-the move spell

Oh yes please! That way I could keep my fel flame as it is.

Anyone else thinking the new mannaroth's fury will be mandatory for any fight with a lot of AOE going on ?
10 sec CD, will increase radius of the basic AOE's and increase their dmg by 100% for it's duration.

They are removing rain of fire's ember generation though, but still.

[junn]

Regarding Aff PVP -

Making our dots stronger and less reliance on MG is something we have been asking for all expansion. Good to see.

Old soul link back will probably be in the form of a cooldown of sorts. They have statated active mitigation > passive so I doubt we'll simply see a 20% blanket dmg reduction.

Our spread dmg in dark soul is already pretty high when fully geared. Makes me think that any buff to dot dmg will be temporary, in pvp at least.

[justinmccray111]

So, I read quite alot of posts on this particular thread as well as Ghostcrawler's tweets and want to share my idea.

I tweeted to GC that they should make Fel flame a spec specific spell for warlocks.

So, it does something different depending on spec. It can even morph into something different for each spec.

Fel flame for destro can morph into searing pain. Fel flame can be instant for Demo. (original state)

Since i dont play affliction i dont have any ideas for that version.

[Szarala]

I never played Durumu with KjC but considering you have to stop and go quite regularly without it I can't see a 30% slow as problematic on that fight.

The slow itself IS problematic on that encounter, which is why the trick for those with KJC is knowing when to not trigger it. This is why I take offense when it's called skilless and the like. It's also a response to GC's tweet about KJC and void zones.

Funny enough HC Durumu is one of the fights you would not want to play Affliction even with the current KjC in place or take KjC as one of the other specs: Both Destruction and Demonology provide wastly superior damage for the Ice Walls and Demonology deals competitive boss damage as well.
...
On high movement encounters (like HC Lei Shen) Affliction will lose DPS, but you can just switch to Demonology and be completely fine. That is what has been annoying me the most about KjC: We already had quite some tools to cope with movement, we had a full spec that excells at movement and yet we get KjC?

This is illustrative of the disconnect metagamers seem to have in perceiving why those more invested in the "character" of their character have problems with things like this and talent swapping.
To tell some people "it's ok, you can just go demo for this fight", you may as well be telling them "oh, just go hop on your alt for this fight".

[Stedy]

Based on the most recent changes to the lvl 90 talents 60sec cd 10sec duration for KJC and 60sec cd 10 sec duration +100% DMG INCREASE!!! to mannoraths fury there is not too much to complain about. Especially for affliction since fel flame no longer refreshes dots. However the cast time on felflame is a BAD change.. in pve thats fine but for PVP demo locks spam fel flame more than sbolt just to avoid getting interrupted or blanketed.. Change fel flam to no longer refresh dots for Affliction only and keep it instant cast and then the changes made to KJC are negligible especially with afflis dmg being shifted more to dots and haunt and away from MG.. HAUNT CAST WHILE MOVING = good thing. only change that is a problem is fel flames cast time.. leave its dmg alone leave it instant and stop the dot refreshing part of it and we are good to go =D

*EDIT*
maybe throw something fun into the KJC talent like when KJC is active dmg done by xxx spell is increased by 10% or while KJC is active all dmg done is increased by 2-5% thoughts??

[Nomial17]

I'm not sure if I understand what the issue is with KJC really. Mages have Ice Floes and i'm pretty sure its a level 15 talent with essentially the same function as KJC, sure its only 2 spells, but it is in fact a LEVEL 15 talent, where as KJC is level 90, has a 10 sec duration and a min CD, opposed to a 45 sec CD. Incinerate is say....a 1.6 sec cast, CB is roughly 2.2 seconds, so with the current talent you'd be able to get roughly 6 Incins or 4-5 CBs. Which in each scenario means that KJC only provides 4 additional filler cast and 2 additional DPS cooldown cast as a level 90 talent opposed to a level 15 talent.

Really doesn't seem like a great trade off considering most level 90 talents are direct DPS increases where as KJC as a CD is to situational.

I'm sure I could have this wrong, it's just my thoughts. Sorry if someone has brought it up previously.

[Deleted]

KJC doesn't dumb down movement mechanics for warlocks - we have to plan around b/c of the speed debuff (move to other players, jump to nests on ji-kun, move out fast of stuff on Lei-shen). There is a lot to it and it is perfectly fine as it is. Also what's the deal with fell flame ... should stay as it is.

It's really heartbreaking to watch blizzard destroy a class they worked hard to make fun again in MoP.

[Szarala]

Based on the most recent changes to the lvl 90 talents 60sec cd 10sec duration for KJC and 60sec cd 10 sec duration +100% DMG INCREASE!!! to mannoraths fury there is not too much to complain about. Especially for affliction since fel flame no longer refreshes dots. However the cast time on felflame is a BAD change.. in pve thats fine but for PVP demo locks spam fel flame more than sbolt just to avoid getting interrupted or blanketed.. Change fel flam to no longer refresh dots for Affliction only and keep it instant cast and then the changes made to KJC are negligible especially with afflis dmg being shifted more to dots and haunt and away from MG.. HAUNT CAST WHILE MOVING = good thing. only change that is a problem is fel flames cast time.. leave its dmg alone leave it instant and stop the dot refreshing part of it and we are good to go =D

Fel Flame is fine. It has a niche it serves well. It is not, however, a suitable filler spell (for Aff at the least). Trying to turn it into one while destroying its niche creates more problems than it solves.

Having Haunt castable on the move (and nothing else) makes no sense whatsoever (and probably why they reverted that when they announced this new Fel Flame nonsense).

*EDIT*
maybe throw something fun into the KJC talent like when KJC is active dmg done by xxx spell is increased by 10% or while KJC is active all dmg done is increased by 2-5% thoughts??

That would be the equivalent of having two Dark Soul buttons instead of one.

[Schma]

Great changes to fel flame and MF. Now all we need is a slight ember generation buff so we can stop using RoF single target and we're good to go. TY blizzard

[Hellfury]

Leave my Felflame alone crab of doom, I need something to kill low level mobs while soloing or doing w/e

[Lulbalance]

Regarding Aff PVP -

Old soul link back will probably be in the form of a cooldown of sorts. They have statated active mitigation > passive so I doubt we'll simply see a 20% blanket dmg reduction.

what are you talking about here? was this mentioned somewhere?

[Deleted]

So, they nerfed the range of our AoE-Spells not too long ago, because of MF. Now they take the actual AoE-spells out of MF (at least for destruction) and juste leave the decreased radius... decreased.
Rain of Fire is not the actual source of Destruction AoE Damage.

Bet they'll nerf immolation aura too as soon as they find out what it can do when its damage gets doubled.


They'll also nerf afflictions dot-damage again short after the patch goes live, when they'll finally have "enough data" to show them, that they recently nerfed afflictions dot-damage for a reason.

[Kazis]

Ghostcrawler's and his team's ideas are so bad they remind me of Mortal Strike for Shaman back in Wrath: an idea so unpleasant and shortsighted that it makes it a whole of one PTR iteration before it's stupidity is obvious.

[Deleted]

Are you serious right now? The problem back in Cata was that DG was far too big of a damage source that you were so dependant on them, making you completely shit without them. They fixed that by reducing the damage and you are now asking for an increase? Where is the "not sure if trolling" meme when you need it.

i dont know about you, but everytime i use DG i loose 2-3 casts of shadow bolt. getting only 17-18 casts, that should atlest be fixed, blizz also said guardians would benefit from haste, DG clearly doesnt benefit from haste as its cast capped at 18 it seems that is atleast something that needs changing, the dmg pr shadow bolt is fine, but the cast cap isnt fine.

if you're fine with blizz once again forcing us into 1 specific spec instead of having 3 viable specs then you clearly need to change your priorities, bcoz that is our great strength atm. im fine with the removal of KJC, ofc that would mean that afflic would need to be the best single dps out there, to compensate for the fact they would loose so much dps from its removal on heavy movement fights.

[Deleted]

GC:
We're going to try keeping Fel Flame as an instant, slightly buffed, with no dot refeshing. Intent wasn't to nerf FF on top of nerfing KJC.

[PickleballAce]

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...88563348840448

linkage.