1. #1941
    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    I play more cata and wotlk then mop due to how they destroyed affliction. I did reffered strictly to affliction at my initial qq.



    I hope you reffering to demo here. Affliction has lost everything it ever stood up- the passive tankiness, strong casted dots, lots of selfhealing, strong sinergy with the pet etc. SB:SS destroyed everything this spec was about for- the dots are not the damage, but the means to do them. Really glad they are doing something about it in 5.4.



    Forever? It died only in mop.



    Ironically, I think affly and destro are really boring to play in pve nowadays- its oversimplified. To actually have to work my ass of as cata destro in HC raids was more satisfying then mop atrocity, I literally lost half of my keybinds.
    Drain life is dead?

    Lol okay.. Whatever you say...

    Guess you dont pvp.

  2. #1942
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post

    More dumbing down the game?
    Yea, because having to cast CoE every 5 minutes if no Rogue is present really adds a degree of complexity and showcases the exceptional skill of the Warlock present in that raid.

  3. #1943
    Well, I know this is personal preference but I find it weird there are people they didn't like the class revamp at MoP. I mean... Warlock is so super nice now. Specs are so good. I know they did their best during the expansion to ruin their great work on the class, but -in my opinion- there is no other class so enjoyable to play. I know, there are people that disagree but I really like the expirience.

    BUT they still try the best to ruin it
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  4. #1944
    INb4 QQ about the changes the next expansion will bring, and people wanting to get back to MOP-style warlock. There will always be whiners, it's simply impossible to have everyone pleased.

    Given how many things warlocks bring to the table, we're the most desired class in PvE atm. Damage is comparable to mages and rogues on certain fights, but they do not bring the utility and survival we bring. Some people fail to see that, or they just simply suck and perform awfully. The revamp was very well made, it's not perfect (still want the gosac dot away, destro haste scaling, demo too reliant on ULVS, affli aoe, etc), but at least we have interesting specs to play. I wouldn't try to keep arguing with some whiners, as there's simply no pleasing some of them.. ever.

  5. #1945
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    Are you serious about us having button bloat?
    Yes, and I explained why in the post I made that followed, but here again if you missed it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, but it goes beyond that in that you get to a point with so many abilities that the purpose of some start to become eroded and you end up with multiple abilities to do ostensibly the same thing in a different way (Old Weakness/Tongues); or one ability completely overwriting the need for another and leading to 'useless' abilities, KJC overwriting Fel Flame for example.

    In the example of that tier of talents with Soul Link/Dark Bargain/Sac Pact; we already have Unending Resolve baseline so throughout most of the game (outside bleeding edge progression/PvP), an extra defensive cooldown on top of that and Healthstones is pretty superfluous meaning we'd gain nothing from that tier at all if all the options were a 1min cooldown, a 2 min cooldown and a 3 minute cooldown for example. It also makes it very hard to really make, and importantly understand the difference between three options of the same thing that serve 3 distinct niches of a niche.

  6. #1946
    Epic! Naztrak's Avatar
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    Drain life is dead?

    Lol okay.. Whatever you say...

    Guess you dont pvp.
    I only pvp and yes, with the increase of bf the value of drain life is nothing more than the last grip to live not the proper filler it was back in cata. 5.4 will kill it more with KJC nerf.

    Yea, because having to cast CoE every 5 minutes if no Rogue is present really adds a degree of complexity and showcases the exceptional skill of the Warlock present in that raid.
    If its just an apply every 5min that what is the big deal? Unless its hard to keep track of -then yes- it shows something. Maintaining dots and curses should mean something, since the gameplay revolves around it.

    There will always be whiners, it's simply impossible to have everyone pleased.
    Some of us didn't asked for anything and we get big changes. Hell, not much people asked for the affliction revamp and after they did horrible changes and the devs never answered to are pvp issues during the beta. We even said blood fear should never existed and they puted it then removed after they did a mess; yeah, whiners like me are obnoxious, but at least we can think better than blizzard about the impact of all the shit they come up with.
    Last edited by Naztrak; 2013-07-22 at 10:54 AM.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  7. #1947
    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    yeah, whiners like me are obnoxious, but at least we can think better than blizzard about the impact of all the shit they come up with.
    because whiners always whine about the same things, huhh?
    no, really, as long as wow has more than one player, there will always be guys who whine about things, some are justified and some are not. while one half of the whiners whine about the implementation of blood fear, the other half is whining because it´s getting removed, and both are blaming blizzard for making terrible choices.

    Some of us didn't asked for anything
    and some other guys did. It seems to me that you just have to learn that you´re not the only guy playing this game, because there is definitly a wide playerbase who actually enjoys how warlocks are doing atm.

  8. #1948
    All specs and classes are hopefully an evolutionary process. That said there are some directions that work out better and some that are just the devs painting themselves into a corner. Look at gateway...one of those things that will almost never balance well and will need a plethora of conditional restraints. I think the devs did a fairly good job in pve for MoP but have been utterly neglectful in terms of pvp.

    Devs need to reconcile destro. Well its supposed to be about nukes but I doubt anyone in blizz can clarify further because they simply don't know themselves. Spoke to someone who lets say has some pretty good info and they said "well its a spec to put out a bunch of burst in a short window". I pointed out demo does that better and he agreed. We talked and it was mentioned destro can't open as hard as aff or demo so that isn't it. Our friend brought up cleave burst but even he admitted that was kind of thin. Blizz doesn't want to make a firemage, an arcane mage, or even another ele shaman out of destro but they don't have a direction for destro just lots of problems. The simpler spell list means there are not a ton of ways to buff destro and its certainly in need of some major help. They will not let chaosbolt hit as hard as it needs to for its effort to execute (in pvp) but they will not budge off making it a real pain to use. To them there is lots of fun in winding up a big spell for big numbers. However practical concerns trump that so PVP doesn't work. There is also a bit of apathy in that aff and demo have done rather well so destro being marginal isn't a priority fix. Demo/aff are doing too well for many I'm told, though they are okay with mages being over the top. I don't know if we will see a fixed destro for 5.4 simply for lack of vision.

    The spec is going to need arc mage level spellpower coef for immo, conflag, and incinerate. Its going to have to get more out of haste so either have a toggle to have backdraft grant 30% crit or dmg vs haste and probably a CD reduction in conflag's recharge based on haste. Chaosbolt needs to find a compromise for pvp. If it can't hit any harder then it needs to be more frequent and easier to use. Be that instant, mobile/uninterruptable, or some compromise therein something has to make it less of a chore to use in pvp. MF talent needs to include F&B spells not just RoF. The dot on gosac CB *still* ignite munches to this day.

    PVP locks still need better defenses. Granted PTR BG's are full of speedhackers, people playing things they do not normally play (and will not come live), and people exploiting bugs. I would consider testing anything you know isn't working as intended or has 0 chance of going live as exploiting. You certainly aren't contributing meaningful data! Melee still can drop us in a stun and we can't really get away on our own. Sure aff can now glass cannon someone but its not fun for either party I'd imagine. Besides, if you can drop people easily and are dead meat once targeted guess who the first kill priority is every time. You think that type of design is going to make people want to pvp on warlocks? I think gateway needs to be 15 seconds for the warlock and 60 sec for everyone else. Pets die to a stiff breeze. You could double their HP or have them take 50% less dmg from players. Fel flame needs a glyph to trade its dmg buff for dot renewal...just a minor glyph to flip the switch so people who prefer a playstyle choice can do it themselves. PVE trinkets have sort of hit a point you can't have them in pvp anymore. The upward racheting pve arms race of trinkets can't be allowed to bleed over into pvp. I get blizz wants flexibility but craftable, cheap to grind/buy, or quest reward pvp trinkets are a far better option. Also fits the lore of escalating horde:ally conflict. As it stands there is no possible defensive gearing option that comes close to offsetting the offensive gain from a pve trinket. That is a fair litmus test for when its just not doable anymore.

  9. #1949
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinmccray111 View Post
    Drain life is dead?

    Lol okay.. Whatever you say...

    Guess you dont pvp.
    People claiming others are wrong when they themselves are in the wrong are my favorite.
    Drain life is almost never used in PvP anymore. Since MoP launched I think I've used it maybe 10 times and those were all times were I was desperately trying to buy myself another 2 seconds for my healer to get out of CC.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You want to know what the #1 problem is for destro? Chaos bolt, and it's all a matter of perception.

    A) Chaos bolt has one of the most noticeable and long lasting animations in the game. Not only did they quadruple the size of the animation, they made it the slowest moving spell in game. The result? Whenever a chaos bolt gets casted everyone in the BG or arena knows about it. Whenever someone gets killed by a chaos bolt the person knows it. It's the least subtle spell ever put in the game. I mean hell, it looks like a freight train coming at you. This means that people complain about it. People only complain about things they notice, and sadly chaos bolt is the most noticeable thing. The same thing happened to stampede. People saw lots of pets and went QQ. A lot of less advanced players probably don't check their combat log. They see CB, die and blame CB.

    Just think about other spells that hit hard. Back in wrath, conflag was the huge hitting spell but it was never changed cause it wasn't noticeable to the average player due to barely any animation. Lava burst is a hard hitting spell but it's fast, so it feels less dangerous. Obliterate demolishes clothies but it doesn't have a huge animation. Starsurge can crit harder than CB but it blends in with all the other spells in the game. Arcane barrage hits that hard too but it also blends in, plus hardly anyone plays arcane in PvP. And now the biggest offender, shadowburn. Shadowburn has no cast time, no real animation, hits harder than CB when it crits yet it hasn't been nerfed once.

    B) Chaos bolt always crits. Out of the other abilities I just mentioned, only lava burst always crits. But it doesn't hit as hard as CB so people notice it less. All of the other hard hitting spells in the game don't always crit. Pyro, obliterate, arcane barrage, starsurge, and shadowburn can all crit almost as hard or even harder in the case of AB and shadowburn. The difference is that players only see those 200k crits sometimes, not all the time.

    Now, you can argue that blizzard didn't listen to whining, but it seems pretty clear why CB is such an issue and has held destro back.

    In my opinion, the best way to change destro would be to adjust the chaos bolt animation to make it slightly less obnoxious. I love the current animation but it's only hurting the spec due to public perception. Also, they need to find a way to either make it not crit all the time without nerfing destro to the ground or buff ember generation proportionate to a say 25% nerf to damage. Until this happens, CB will cause problems for destro and keep it down because of public perception. Hell, they could make it not crit all the time but give us a proc for non execute shadowburns.
    Last edited by Kildragon; 2013-07-22 at 01:24 PM.

  10. #1950
    Epic! Naztrak's Avatar
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    while one half of the whiners whine about the implementation of blood fear, the other half is whining because it´s getting removed, and both are blaming blizzard for making terrible choices.
    But there is a difference- removal of BF actually made arenas a -little- bit more enjoyable for both the veteran locks and the opponents. This issue is not of preference but balance. Balance should be put above preference.

    and some other guys did. It seems to me that you just have to learn that you´re not the only guy playing this game, because there is definitly a wide playerbase who actually enjoys how warlocks are doing atm.
    Lets take fillers as an example. Look at the pool of the number of people that preferred for shadow bolt to be our filter, and an occasional Drain Life in the comments. The revamp was a sucess for people that rerolled lock and some of those that played, but left the large portion of us unsatisfied. As of business pov, should you keep your steady customers as they are or should you aim for the new ones and mid xpac change locks even more so it makes rerollers also mad?

    I think the devs did a fairly good job in pve for MoP but have been utterly neglectful in terms of pvp.
    This is the spot- blizzard completely neglected lock pvp in the beta and now its facing balance issues and big changes mid xpac. I have yet to find 1 affliction PvPer that thinks mop model is better than the cata/wotlk one.
    Last edited by Naztrak; 2013-07-22 at 01:27 PM.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  11. #1951
    Quote Originally Posted by demonik View Post
    I can understand personal preference to what they think is a good spec or gameplay, but how can people say the revamp to warlocks wasn't good?
    does anyone even remember how scattered demo was? it had almost no set rotation and the majority of people playing it were few to none.almost the same can be said about destro.affliction was the only decent spec we had to really play last expansion. i know people who did choose to play warlocks did play a little of each spec(which was a very small amount) but, there was a reason the class got revamped. most warlocks weren't cheering for how good their gameplay was in pve or pvp.
    I played affliction only since tbc and had to watch them removing one dot from our rotation after another. I never wanted to play demonology back then and this didn't change. I just don't like the spec at all. Now after the revamp, affliction is just horrible. It feels clunky with MG as a filler and soul shards as a secondary resource. I am playing destruction now, but I don't really like it either because it's just not what I wanted to play when I originally chose to play warlock.
    What do I care when there were players from classic to cata that didn't like warlock how it originally was supposed to be? There are so many other classes with different playstyles, so why do they demand to make a class fit their needs so they like it? There were players that liked warlock as it was.
    Now, thanks to those changes, I will have to reroll a different class because playing destruction since MoP release just isn't fun anymore while the old affliction has been fun for several years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Naxx Affliction was really cool, but honestly, if you could watch a DoT timer it really wasn't that challenging, but I understand why people liked it.
    Yes, I want that back. Affliction before they removed Siphon Life as an active skill.
    Last edited by Efrye; 2013-07-22 at 01:33 PM.

  12. #1952
    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    The revamp was a sucess for people that rerolled lock and some of those that played, but left the large portion of us unsatisfied. As of business pov, should you keep your steady customers as they are or should you aim for the new ones and mid xpac change locks even more so it makes rerollers also mad?
    So you know the exact numbers of those people hating the "new" warlock? If you are referring to the forums you should also consider that almost all critics are complains. how much people are actually coming to the forums and post that they enjoy what they are playing? - right.
    And btw, from business PoV it´s more important to make the widest playerbase happy.

  13. #1953
    Epic! Naztrak's Avatar
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    And btw, from business PoV it´s more important to make the widest playerbase happy.
    Yet they strive to lose the widest playerbase- those who are locks due to KJC.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  14. #1954
    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    INb4 QQ about the changes the next expansion will bring, and people wanting to get back to MOP-style warlock. There will always be whiners, it's simply impossible to have everyone pleased.
    if you're referring to pvp, you're an idiot man..sorry.

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-22 at 03:06 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  15. #1955
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    Yet they strive to lose the widest playerbase- those who are locks due to KJC.
    I'm gonna have to call BS on that. KJC was only good after they changed it in 5.2. Before then, the talent was complete dog shit and nobody took it. Most of the warlock re rollers probably did it in 5.0/5.1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    if you're referring to pvp, you're an idiot man..sorry.
    Actually, MoP style destro is awesome for PvP. Since MoP launch, destro has been amazing for RBGs and pretty fun in arenas. As i outlined in my post above though, the main problem is with chaos bolt. Plus, anything is better than cata pvp for destro.

    Demo has also been decent so far. You can still compete at a decent level in both RBGs and arenas. I'm just happy that demo has any pvp viability at all right now, seeing how it sucked in wrath and cata.

    I will give you that the old affliction felt better. The new one is far better for PvE though and at least they are working on PvP. It's certainly not horrible, and if they just buffed corruption back to its old levels we'd be fine in terms of damage.

    I am a bit concerned with our survivability though and they should really give fel armor the shadowform treatment.

  16. #1956
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    PVP locks still need better defenses. Granted PTR BG's are full of speedhackers, people playing things they do not normally play (and will not come live), and people exploiting bugs. I would consider testing anything you know isn't working as intended or has 0 chance of going live as exploiting. You certainly aren't contributing meaningful data! Melee still can drop us in a stun and we can't really get away on our own. Sure aff can now glass cannon someone but its not fun for either party I'd imagine. Besides, if you can drop people easily and are dead meat once targeted guess who the first kill priority is every time. You think that type of design is going to make people want to pvp on warlocks? I think gateway needs to be 15 seconds for the warlock and 60 sec for everyone else. Pets die to a stiff breeze. You could double their HP or have them take 50% less dmg from players. Fel flame needs a glyph to trade its dmg buff for dot renewal...just a minor glyph to flip the switch so people who prefer a playstyle choice can do it themselves. PVE trinkets have sort of hit a point you can't have them in pvp anymore. The upward racheting pve arms race of trinkets can't be allowed to bleed over into pvp. I get blizz wants flexibility but craftable, cheap to grind/buy, or quest reward pvp trinkets are a far better option. Also fits the lore of escalating horde:ally conflict. As it stands there is no possible defensive gearing option that comes close to offsetting the offensive gain from a pve trinket. That is a fair litmus test for when its just not doable anymore.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this paragraph, especially with the fel flame glyph. Affliction will be okay, b/c you need only cast UA out of the 3 DoTs, and all of them can just be SS'd to the other targets after refresh. But Immolate is pretty screwed outside of 1v1 combat. I'm not even going to bother casting it outside of FnB in RBGs (if I even play destro next patch altogether), b/c the simple fact is it is an extremely weak DoT, has a cast time, and has no dispel protection (which destro locks have begged for years, but stopped this xpak b/c A) incin damage was no longer tied to immo and B) we cast fel flame more than anything in arenas).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Actually, MoP style destro is awesome for PvP. Since MoP launch, destro has been amazing for RBGs and pretty fun in arenas. As i outlined in my post above though, the main problem is with chaos bolt. Plus, anything is better than cata pvp for destro.
    I can agree with Destro in RBGs. I don't think anyone can deny that the Destro lock has reigned as king of RBGs this xpak alongside our Frost DK overlords.
    Last edited by Shadowygoodness; 2013-07-22 at 03:37 PM.
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

  17. #1957
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post

    Actually, MoP style destro is awesome for PvP. Since MoP launch, destro has been amazing for RBGs and pretty fun in arenas. As i outlined in my post above though, the main problem is with chaos bolt. Plus, anything is better than cata pvp for destro.

    Demo has also been decent so far. You can still compete at a decent level in both RBGs and arenas. I'm just happy that demo has any pvp viability at all right now, seeing how it sucked in wrath and cata.
    I don't know where you are getting this "destro is awesome for PvP". The only thing destro excels in is RBG's (which are a joke anyways). Most high rated warlocks enjoyed the Cata destro over the easy 4 button MoP destro, Cata destro required skill and practice. The only thing MoP destro requires is being able to spam chaos bolts and 2 shot somebody.

    I will agree with you that demo being viable is good though. Although the way they made it "viable" is completely terrible, you'll never do good as it because if your facing a 2.2k+ Rated team and they see you pop DS they just CC/LoS/etc until its off then your useless for the next 2min. As for it being viable in RBG's..............No serious RBG group is going to take a demo lock unless they are FC'ing.

  18. #1958
    Quote Originally Posted by icecoldsir View Post
    I don't know where you are getting this "destro is awesome for PvP". The only thing destro excels in is RBG's (which are a joke anyways). Most high rated warlocks enjoyed the Cata destro over the easy 4 button MoP destro, Cata destro required skill and practice. The only thing MoP destro requires is being able to spam chaos bolts and 2 shot somebody.
    There was no such thing as a high rated Destro Lock in Cata. Any 2200+ PvPer knows Affy was the only way to go.

    Your post made me lol.

  19. #1959
    The Patient sasofrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowygoodness View Post
    I personally LOVED cata Demo. Idk how anyone could say it was stale. The whole spec revolved around smart use of Metamorphosis. The filler was dynamic: shadowbolt spam to instant shadowbolt nightfall proc to incinerate spam molten core proc to soulfire spam in execute - that's a helluva lot more than Demo does now. THEN you had 3 DoTs (Corr, Doom, Immo) to maintain and HoG on CD. Meta-weaving is probably the only thing interesting about Demo's current gameplay, and it's not even intended lol! It's the side effect of the time it takes HoG to calculate damage. Blizzard explicitly stated at the outset of MoP, they didn't want us stance dancing for Demo, and more than likely HoG-weaving will die at the end of MoP which is sad due to it (I reiterate) being the only thing interesting about PvE MoP demo, IMHO.
    I don't miss cata demo in the slightest. The only way to even perform remotely well was to have a second gear set which stacked mastery and equip it during prepot, go into meta, and swap back to your regular gear. That felt very, very stupid and if you messed it up your dps was awful.

    You basically couldn't even do competitive dps as a warlock in cataclysm unless you did this trick. Only reason you were brought was for your 10% sp buff because elemental shamans were even worse.

  20. #1960
    Destro has been good for RBG's and that's it when it comes to rated pvp. Half the time not even for its direct damage just spraying aoe into a crowd, especially a crowd around a flag. Compared to other caster comps, hunter/xxx comps, etc locks have not had a place in high end pvp in MoP. So if you are only counting the least relevant aspect of pvp (neither as easy/fun as 2's nor truly competitive like 3's) then destro has had a niche. You don't get CB casts off in pvp vs a team of similar MMR. At least not the darksoul + CD ones and those are the only ones that will budge a HP bar. Look at the most recent tourney vids. The one match where someone used a destro lock (alongside a ele sham) the lock did almost nothing or only a shadowburn on a kill. Meanwhile the ele can easily solo even tourney level players. I'm not saying ele is balanced per se but more that destro is really not competitive by measureable criteria compared to other ranged or "burst" specs.

    Blizz has a twofold problem with chaosbolt in pvp. First its the obvious "how hard does a 3 sec cast using a limited resource need to hit to be worth it". The second is the psychological of seeing a giant green dildo of doom flying at you and seeing 1 big combat log entry. Take the mix of pyro/inferno/LVB/combust, oblit spam (on cloth), powershot/aimedproc/chimera w' some autoshots, FFB/frostbomb/icelance, etc its mentally harder to put together. Especially for your average player who lets face it...isn't exactly nasa material. With the 25% nerf to CB vs players even if it were instant you aren't doing anything outside what other burst specs pull off regularly and that is the height of being "buffed for pvp". Haunt hits harder on the PTR and its far easier to cast plus jacks up aff's damage beyond the direct impact. Its just a white little ball not a giant green dild-er, dragon animation. If haunt was a ginormous boomkin sized purple skull that nomnom'd its jaws in flight people would be crying already.

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