1. #3681
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by EvreliaGaming View Post
    If the Demo lock has better damage on priority adds and lower damage overall, thats because he's focusing priority adds and you are not. Destro/Demo can sustain 400k+ on this fight (Destro is probably a bit better overall). If you play Affli here it's because you want to go full out on important targets and leave the AoE to others.
    Are you really sure? I am sustaining 400k+ as Affliction without issues (with lacking UI and some lag, like all have on PTR). It's easily near the top in overall specs from all classes, but even if you mean by ''leave AoE to others'' only other warlocks I can't imagine them doing much more than that? Maybe I'm missing something, or my guildies are not as good as I think

  2. #3682
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    All general purpose theorycrafting is single target. After that, it's about cheesing encounter mechanics which Destro has to be fair generally been pretty good at this expansion. Guess they just balanced around cheesing.
    Can't tell if this is serious or tongue in cheek. I'd add in that people forget the purpose of the Simulation is to model the "real world" (ignore the obvious irony of a video game being RL, lol). Once you start making RL decisions based on something that primarily exists only in the simulation (in this case single target Patchwerk fights), then you're in trouble.

    Honestly, I think it's time we make the simulation more closely mirror the game. EJ used to post numbers on different amounts of movement in fights, but they no longer do. They have made some strides by posting 8 target AoE (which have a duration of 2-3 minutes, which is unrealistic . . . should be 20-30 seconds and no infernal usage) and 2 boss cleave fights for locks, but those are still lacking. Would love some standard add fights and more of the common mechanics.

    But I digress . . .

    TLDR: Don't decide what spec to play based only on the output of a Patchwerk single target sim. Use your brain and experience too.

    And for those who want to continue to argue the point, don't forget that people were playing Affliction/Demo over Destro in 5.0 and 5.1 because SimulationCraft was bugged! (Destro was actually higher, but a bug in the sim didn't allow RoF to crit, decreasing Destro DPS by quite a bit).

  3. #3683
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post

    And for those who want to continue to argue the point, don't forget that people were playing Affliction/Demo over Destro in 5.0 and 5.1 because SimulationCraft was bugged! (Destro was actually higher, but a bug in the sim didn't allow RoF to crit, decreasing Destro DPS by quite a bit).
    you really just typed that?

  4. #3684
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    And for those who want to continue to argue the point, don't forget that people were playing Affliction/Demo over Destro in 5.0 and 5.1 because SimulationCraft was bugged! (Destro was actually higher, but a bug in the sim didn't allow RoF to crit, decreasing Destro DPS by quite a bit).
    I'm sorry, just no. We played Affliction because it was better.

  5. #3685
    Yeah affliction doodoo'd on destro in 5.0

    Destro hadn't received any of the buffs it got in 5.2 yet and gosac was still giving a 50% increase for aff which was silly.

  6. #3686
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yeah affliction doodoo'd on destro in 5.0

    Destro hadn't received any of the buffs it got in 5.2 yet and gosac was still giving a 50% increase for aff which was silly.
    I missed the sac part of Affliction. I thought it was nerfed? The damage bonus to Haunt was nerfed. Too lazy to check, but I thought they neutered GoSac for Affliction as well.

  7. #3687
    Deleted
    As i remember it, playing Affliction with GoSac at that time simply was #1 dps by default for quite a few fights, it gave me entitlement issues!

  8. #3688
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    When does rain of fire start becoming viable? 2 targets? 3?
    It's a huge dps increase on 2 targets (10-15%) assuming 1 RoF hits 2 targets all the time.
    And it's a dps loss when 2 separate RoFs hit 2 separate targets because it would simply mess up your mana regen and wouldn't give you enough embers to compensate that amount of mana.

  9. #3689
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    It's a huge dps increase on 2 targets (10-15%) assuming 1 RoF hits 2 targets all the time.
    And it's a dps loss when 2 separate RoFs hit 2 separate targets because it would simply mess up your mana regen and wouldn't give you enough embers to compensate that amount of mana.
    Are you 100% sure about this? We're talking about 5.4 here where the amount of embers it provides has been slashed dramatically. So much so that even on 5/6 targets it struggles to provide enough embers to maintain a FnB rotation.

    Where did you get this 10-15% damage increase from?

  10. #3690
    Where did you get this 10-15% damage increase from?
    I pulled those numbers straight out of my ass, sir.
    Just did some dummy tests.

  11. #3691
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    571
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Are you 100% sure about this? We're talking about 5.4 here where the amount of embers it provides has been slashed dramatically. So much so that even on 5/6 targets it struggles to provide enough embers to maintain a FnB rotation.

    Where did you get this 10-15% damage increase from?
    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    I pulled those numbers straight out of my ass, sir.
    Just did some dummy tests.
    Also, common sense. Damage Per Cast Time. Ignoring ember gen that is. As it currently stands on live, iirc, RoF has a higher DPCT than Incinerate single target, PLUS the extra embers. They haven't nerfed RoF damage or buffed Incinerate in any way, the only change has been the embers from RoF. So if you're hitting 2 targets with RoF, then, ignoring the embers from it, it's doing more than double the damage you would've if you'd just cast an Incinerate. In single target it comes into play as being worse, however, because the embers outweigh the (tiny) bit of extra damage.

    Edit: Just checked on my geared lock. It's reforged for Demo instead of Destro, so has tons of mastery (which increases the damage of incinerate, but not RoF), so these numbers might be a wee bit skewed, but as it currently stands, completely unbuffed, the tooltip for Incinerate says that it does 70,083 damage in a 1.67s cast time (so 41,965 damage per second), whereas RoF does 42,280 damage in a GCD.

    Again, that's with incorrect stat weights, completely ignoring any buffs, haste procs (such as backlash), and all ember gen, which would change the numbers, but the base tooltips show RoF having a higher DPCT than incinerate, single target. Which only goes to prove that if you have an extra mob sitting in RoF for it's full duration, it does more than double the damage of a single incinerate on 1 of the mobs.
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-04 at 11:13 AM.

  12. #3692
    Deleted
    Agreed, I'd forgotten to take into account the damage that it does.

    My concerns were wrapped up in whether the ember generation will be enough to justify it.

    The fact that it doesn't have a cast time is also a bonus in RoF's favour, though by the sounds of it, fel flame seems the way to go unless under backdraft?

  13. #3693
    Deleted
    Agreed, I'd forgotten to take into account the damage that it does.

    My concerns were wrapped up in whether the ember generation will be enough to justify it.

    The fact that it doesn't have a cast time is also a bonus in RoF's favour, though by the sounds of it, fel flame seems the way to go unless under backdraft?
    ~0.25 emberbit per tick => ~2 emberbits per cast => ~4 emberbits per cast on 2 targets
    Much better than an Incinerate, ember-wise.

  14. #3694
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    ~0.25 emberbit per tick => ~2 emberbits per cast => ~4 emberbits per cast on 2 targets
    Much better than an Incinerate, ember-wise.
    Yeah I just copied over my addons to PTR and actually did some anecdotal testing for once. Did two quick and dirty 5 minute tests on a pair of dummies.

    With only 53% uptime on rain of fire (i know, i know), maintaining immolate on both targets but not using havoc, I managed 216k dps, of which rain of fire was 7.7% damage. I know the rain of fire uptime was dogshit, so obviously it will be even better with perfect play.

    Without using rain of fire I ended up at 184k dps after 5 minutes. Chaos bolt made up 5% less damage but I did cast a lot more incinerates.

    I waited 5 mins between attempts. Burst was noticeable higher with rain of fire up as well due to getting so many more embers.

    So yeah, obviously this testing was complete crap and can't be taken as gospel, but you're right that its a massive increase on 2 targets alone.

    I didn't use fel flame at all though in these tests. I'm right in assuming that with a low haste build, it's better than incinerate unless you have backdraft up?

  15. #3695
    Deleted
    Wait, so what you're saying is that despite blizzard nerfing RoF to stop us casting it single target... It's still going to be required for ember generation? So we basically got nerfed for the sake of it and not to remove an unintended play style?

    Ugh, so much bullshit.

  16. #3696
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nungamunch View Post
    Wait, so what you're saying is that despite blizzard nerfing RoF to stop us casting it single target... It's still going to be required for ember generation? So we basically got nerfed for the sake of it and not to remove an unintended play style?

    Ugh, so much bullshit.
    Blizz doesn't want us to use RoF as a single target spell, which is why they nerfed it. The situation described in the post above yours is a multi target situation, which might still require us to use RoF.

    Althoug, I think RoF might even be useful in one specific situation in a single target fight:
    Assuming you have built up 3-4 embers, because DS is about to be rdy and you pop DS and start chaining 4-6 Chaos Bolts in a row, I think it might still be a (small) dps increase, using RoF every 2nd Chaos Bolt or so, to maintain a small ember regeneration while firing all those CBs. This might even squeeze out another CB, because of the ember you have regenerated, while firing away your CBs.

  17. #3697
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    20,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Nungamunch View Post
    Wait, so what you're saying is that despite blizzard nerfing RoF to stop us casting it single target... It's still going to be required for ember generation? So we basically got nerfed for the sake of it and not to remove an unintended play style?

    Ugh, so much bullshit.
    They're talking about 2+ targets.

  18. #3698
    Deleted
    They're talking about 2+ targets.
    It still might be better than Incinerate in single target too. It is for embers at least, but the damage might be lower, especially with a lot of mastery.

  19. #3699
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    20,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    It still might be better than Incinerate in single target too. It is for embers at least, but the damage might be lower, especially with a lot of mastery.
    Well there's that 'Ember generator' button people were looking for.

  20. #3700
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    571
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    ~0.25 emberbit per tick => ~2 emberbits per cast => ~4 emberbits per cast on 2 targets
    Much better than an Incinerate, ember-wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    It still might be better than Incinerate in single target too. It is for embers at least, but the damage might be lower, especially with a lot of mastery.
    Well, at 12k unbuffed mastery, my incinerates have a lower DPCT than RoF... But I guess having 3k mastery and 5% haste raid buffs would also increase incinerate's worth too, so I can't say for certain... But it looks like, (depending on the stat weights of Destro come next patch too) RoF could still be viable in single target rotation, but only when incinerate isn't affected by haste procs... At least, at lower gear levels it definitely will be. Hard to say for higher gear. But at lower gear it gives more (average) embers per cast than Incin does, and has a roughly equal DPCT. Don't know what to make of it, honestly.

    IMO at this point, it looks like the only way they could possibly fix Destro PROPERLY is to buff Incinerate to give 2 emberbits on hit, 4 on crit... And maybe to balance it take the ember gen out of Immolate crit ticks. Or something like that. I don't know. At least that would increase single target DPS, fix the AoE ember problem, make RoF completely out of the question for single (and double?) target, AND stop Fel Flame from being used as a filler over Incinerate... :\

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Well there's that 'Ember generator' button people were looking for.
    People were asking for a button that gave an entire ember, instantly, and had a somewhat long (~60 secs?) CD to compensate. RoF generates 0.2 embers over ~7 seconds on single target. That's NOT an "Ember Generator Button".

    Unless you're referring to something else entirely, that I'm not aware of.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •