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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthred View Post
    Aren't we missing here that the Guardian of Ancient kings can no longer stack past 12 or 13 % ? That is 2 minutes off the cooldown in exchange for 7-8% less burst damage.
    No we already covered this, yes 40% off the CD and 40% off STR stacks breaks us about even, however ever since MoP launched the guardian's personal melee damage is actually very high, and this damage was not nerfed as far as we know. So, yes we do lose burst, but the increase in sustained really is quite significant.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronosmash View Post
    Man, LIFE will be so much better with a Instant Fear on 15 secs CD and we will get a GCD and 3HP every 30 secs (this is HUGE).

    With this we get to CC to land a kill, to peel someone, to cap a flag on RBGs even. Our DPS will go so much better, we can consider 1 or 2 HP Inq to land a quick kill... man, I can't wait.
    Yeah like the instant fear warlocks got that everyone complained about and got butchered as a result.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Yeah like the instant fear warlocks got that everyone complained about and got butchered as a result.
    I really don't think instant CC for melee and casters should be compared. Casters are supposed to be incorruptible and able to function outside of melee range, that's how they are balanced, or at least that's the general idea historically. Virtually all melee abilities are instant, which is also part of how melee are generally balanced. The fact that barely any Ret takes Repent pretty clearly shows what a massive liability and dps loss casting is - outweighing the fact that Repent is a pretty awesome CC. Offering Ret a talent tier with two option that have a cast-time is pretty awful game design, Ret clearly needs some perk to make casting these a bit less painful. Maybe a speed boost or a damage boost right after successful completing a cast...

    Melee can't be balanced around abilities that have to be cast. What's next? A cast time on Kidney Shot, or maybe Charge and Shockwave should have castimes, and Warriors should get locked out of the physical school if interrupted. This whole crusade against instant cc is complete non-nonsnce and a testament to how badly the developers understand their own game, the game has to practically be completely redesigned to remove instant cc.

  4. #224
    Epic! solvexx's Avatar
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    I'm quite happy that we get some more sustained damage, I feel like we really struggle with longevity outside of CDs.

  5. #225
    yeah, Ret desperately lacks sustained, but I'm almost positive that a buff to sustained wont help at all.

    What Ret, as a burst-oriented spec, needs imo, are more frequent burst windows.

  6. #226
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Offering Ret a talent tier with two option that have a cast-time is pretty awful game design, Ret clearly needs some perk to make casting these a bit less painful. Maybe a speed boost or a damage boost right after successful completing a cast...
    That's not really a solution, it's just a gratuitous buff for no real reason because it doesn't assist the talent itself. The problem is that melee classes with cast times on important abilities are something of a liability; warriors finally got rid of Slam's cast time coming in to MoP, while the Shattering Throw cast time remained (although it's being removed, thankfully, in 5.4). The snag is purely that once you see a warrior stop to cast, you know exactly what he's doing; good players then either pillar-hump or interrupt it, so you're effectively stuck being unable to use it. Is that considered good for Retribution? Probably not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    This whole crusade against instant cc is complete non-nonsnce and a testament to how badly the developers understand their own game, the game has to practically be completely redesigned to remove instant cc.
    I don't know, it's the type of thing that might get me back into PvP; I've barely played it since WotLK because it's just been utterly dominated by casters. The problem is that there are simply too many tools in PvP at the moment, and no class seems willing to do without anything. Every class should have a weakness of some kind, but nobody's willing to accept it and the inconsistencies that's spawning are making PvP too much of a burden. Ghostcrawler recently said mages are extremely difficult to handle at the lower skill levels, but good players have less issues with them - warriors, on the other hand, wreck the undergeared and ill-experienced but are too easy to counter at competitive levels.

    Too many interrupts brought instant casts. Too many instant casts brough blanket silences. That's the "arms" race described going into Cataclysm (if you can believe it) and we're still stuck with it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  7. #227
    Epic! solvexx's Avatar
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    Seems as though they will give Ret Sacred Shield as a spec thing now.
    They change SS to Holy Shield in the talents.. Can't wait to see what they give us.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    yeah, Ret desperately lacks sustained, but I'm almost positive that a buff to sustained wont help at all.

    What Ret, as a burst-oriented spec, needs imo, are more frequent burst windows.
    I think they just need to change our PvP 4 set to make Templar's Verdict hit for all Holy Damage every 20 seconds. That would make it so we have an obliterate type burst move on a 20 second cd.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 02:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Seems as though they will give Ret Sacred Shield as a spec thing now.
    They change SS to Holy Shield in the talents.. Can't wait to see what they give us.
    That is what I'm hoping for. Although the patch notes changed to say "Sacred Shield" again in the talents. But perhaps they will make the Cata version baseline and name that one "Holy Shield".

  9. #229
    Epic! solvexx's Avatar
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    The extra 20% healing during Sanctified Wrath sure does make it more appealing.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    The extra 20% healing during Sanctified Wrath sure does make it more appealing.
    That's prot only.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  11. #231
    Epic! solvexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    That's prot only.
    Apparently I need to work on my reading comprehension. :/

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Apparently I need to work on my reading comprehension. :/
    Yeah literally no changes for Ret this build what so ever, they just reverted some of their experiments and started working on making things other than SS attractive to Prot as they said they would. I wonder why the new glyph of Turn Evil is taking so long.

  13. #233
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Im still waiting for changes to tier1. They havent done anything with it yet.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    Im still waiting for changes to tier1. They havent done anything with it yet.
    Barely any tier has any real choices for Ret PvP. Long Arm of the Law is mandatory, Fist of Justice dominates tier 2 but this is perhaps the only tier with some variety, Selfless Healer is mandatory, Clemency is mandatory, Holy Avenger dominates like First but the other two are somewhat viable, Prism is "mandatory" and my quotation marks are there to indicate how awful our last tier is for PvP. Basically: 3 tiers with mandatory talents, 2 with dominant talents that are almost always taken, and 1 tier so pathetic that it might as well not even exist in PvP.

    My Windwalker is almost exactly the same, I barely even need to carry Tomes of the Clear Mind on him unless i need PvE AoE dps. They need to stop redesigning talents every expansion and admit that real balance comes from continuous hard work and careful attention to the game, not grandiose makeovers followed by years of negligence.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-06-29 at 01:07 AM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    Im still waiting for changes to tier1. They havent done anything with it yet.
    Yeah they do need to improve the other movement talents.

    Pursuit of Justice should stack with other movement increasing effects (like the boot enchant) and the extra movement speed given from Holy Power should last for at least 2 seconds after it is consumed.

    Speed of Light should either have its cd reduced to 25 seconds or act as another freedom on top of the movement speed it gives. Another thing they could do is redesign it for ret to be an actual gap closer. Something along the lines of "You move at the speed of light appearing in front of your target. 45 second cd."

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Yeah they do need to improve the other movement talents.

    Pursuit of Justice should stack with other movement increasing effects (like the boot enchant) and the extra movement speed given from Holy Power should last for at least 2 seconds after it is consumed.

    Speed of Light should either have its cd reduced to 25 seconds or act as another freedom on top of the movement speed it gives. Another thing they could do is redesign it for ret to be an actual gap closer. Something along the lines of "You move at the speed of light appearing in front of your target. 45 second cd."
    gap closer with 45 sec cd?
    no god please no.

    Gap closer with a cd >15 sec is fail by definition, you wont ever catch noone.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 05:43 AM ----------

    I mean, everyone keeps saying LAotL is our gap closer, but did anyone ever ponder over how effective it is? It is worth nothing against classes that can spell lock , and its not even much effective to begin with. Versatile - maybe, on demand usable - sure, but its effectiveness is lacking.

    Let's see how it works to begin with: you judge, and you are granted a 45% runspeed increase for 4 seconds, so its 145% runspeed for 4 seconds, so as you can see its not instant gap closer for sure, compared to "real" gap closers.
    Now imagine, that at the moment you hit Judgement, you are snared by, say, frost shock? What that means? It means that at the very least, you move with 145%/2 runspeed for 1.5 to 3 seconds, if you were already pressing another button and being gcd locked for Emancipate. It means, you gap closer didn't even close the gap.

    Now what happens if its a class that can spell lock? You get snared, you get spell locked, and there is literally nothing you can do about it.


    So to sum it up, LAotL is not instant, nor it is powerful, as well as not effective while being next to useless against classes with spell locks or silences.

    Paladins may have high mobility with emancipate+HoF+LAotL, but their gap closing ability is severely lacking and is easily shut down.


    But please, don't bring "many ranged attacks" argument to the table, because last I checked, TV is a melee move, and you don't kill competent players through only ranged attacks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 05:56 AM ----------

    What I'd suggest in regards to LAotL is to at least increase bonus speed from 45% to 100% so you are not slowed down if snare is applied while runspeed increase takes effect.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 06:12 AM ----------

    It would also increase its effectiveness, reliability and viability as a gap closer overall.

  17. #237
    Mechagnome Vuagnon's Avatar
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    It's too bad that I'm in the army right now. I'd definitely return back to play my buffed Paladin for a couple of months.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonuts View Post
    Pretty sad when being deathgripped is my most reliable gap closer! THAT is some BS too.

  18. #238
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    Some nice buffs to help the sustained dps. but removed of ranged snare is actualy a pretty big blow IMO. I often use for the pesky range that keep running

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemo View Post
    Some nice buffs to help the sustained dps. but removed of ranged snare is actualy a pretty big blow IMO. I often use for the pesky range that keep running
    Yeah and we lose instant Turn Evil so that Holy can pick between Repent or Fear... Rets don't take Repent now, so I don't really see why they will take Fear unless changes are made via the glyph or some other way to make hard-casting less punishing to Ret. Instant Turn Evil is awesome, you can mana starve priests by fearing their fiends, annoy the crap out of Warlocks and especially Unholy Dks... it really isn't clear if Ret will even be better in 5.4 at high rated levels.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Yeah and we lose instant Turn Evil so that Holy can pick between Repent or Fear... Rets don't take Repent now, so I don't really see why they will take Fear unless changes are made via the glyph or some other way to make hard-casting less punishing to Ret. Instant Turn Evil is awesome, you can mana starve priests by fearing their fiends, annoy the crap out of Warlocks and especially Unholy Dks... it really isn't clear if Ret will even be better in 5.4 at high rated levels.
    I forgot that aswel I am so used to instant TU versus priest and dks that i forgot we losing that -_-

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