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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    gap closer with 45 sec cd?
    no god please no.

    Gap closer with a cd >15 sec is fail by definition, you wont ever catch noone.
    I agree that our mobility options could use some work, and that 45 seconds is way to long of a cooldown, but 15 seconds is actually pretty short compared to most standard, instant gap closers. Charge is at 20 seconds, Shadow Step is at 24, Deathgrip and Flying Serpent Kick are at 25, Clash is even at 35 seconds.

    Personally I would like to see Speed of Light reworked for Ret into a line attack, I was a big advocate for that kind of mechanic before the current Flying Serpent Kick was implemented during beta. Would fit in with the current talent tier, where all the spells can be used to close or open a gap. Can put it on 25 - 30 second CD, give it a secondary effect, could be interesting.

  2. #242
    Inquisition fix+guardian..
    Yaay!

  3. #243
    i think long arm is a fine gap closer considering that we have hand of freedom and cleanse snares and roots. what i would like to see is judgement do a lot more damage in pvp. like everytime your target is stunned or incapacitated your judgement does 100% more damage like how it used to be in vanilla and tbc

  4. #244
    You have to remeber that we're balanced around holy paladins. Imagine a holy paladin getting a gap closer like charge so they can CC, instead of having to run in to get HoJ>Blind>Repent.

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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Yeah and we lose instant Turn Evil so that Holy can pick between Repent or Fear... Rets don't take Repent now, so I don't really see why they will take Fear unless changes are made via the glyph or some other way to make hard-casting less punishing to Ret. Instant Turn Evil is awesome, you can mana starve priests by fearing their fiends, annoy the crap out of Warlocks and especially Unholy Dks... it really isn't clear if Ret will even be better in 5.4 at high rated levels.
    As of right now not a whole lot has changed for Ret in high rated pvp. The only change that makes any real difference is Inquisition lasting 1min. That will make our sustained damage a little higher by us not having to refresh it so much.

    I'm 100% convinced that if they give us something to help with personal survivability outside of bubble we will be in a perfect spot in PvP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 11:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    You have to remeber that we're balanced around holy paladins. Imagine a holy paladin getting a gap closer like charge so they can CC, instead of having to run in to get HoJ>Blind>Repent.
    They can make talents work differently for other specs so that really shouldn't be a problem.

  6. #246
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Id like it if they made PoJ passive around 20-25%. And reduce duration and cooldown of speed of light like Blazing Speed.
    Last edited by ipoststuff; 2013-06-30 at 06:46 AM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauren View Post
    i think long arm is a fine gap closer considering that we have hand of freedom and cleanse snares and roots. what i would like to see is judgement do a lot more damage in pvp. like everytime your target is stunned or incapacitated your judgement does 100% more damage like how it used to be in vanilla and tbc
    "balanced around" does not translate to "works fine", which I perfectly explained in my previous post.
    Feel free to (re-)read.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 08:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sathen View Post
    I agree that our mobility options could use some work, and that 45 seconds is way to long of a cooldown, but 15 seconds is actually pretty short compared to most standard, instant gap closers. Charge is at 20 seconds, Shadow Step is at 24, Deathgrip and Flying Serpent Kick are at 25, Clash is even at 35 seconds.
    well yeah, no.

    Warriors have YET ANOTHER gapcloser in the form of Heroic Leap besides charge,
    Rogues have a baseline sprint and a baseline runspeed increase besides the whole "stealth" thing which allows for perefectly fine engagements\disengagements,
    and DKs have a baseline ranged powerful slow besides Death Grip, so it kinda sets off longer CDs for those classes.

    So do you really want to compare BASELINE means to close the gap between Rets, warriors, rogues and DKs ?


    Giving Rets LAotL as a baseline ability, THAT would be great, because Rets have NO baseline means to close the gap.
    If Rets had LAotL as a baseline move, then Speed of Light would AT LEAST become a choice.
    Last edited by Storm the Sorrow; 2013-06-30 at 09:26 AM.

  8. #248
    Only way a ret will get a gap closer is if they lose the ability to dispel snares off themselves. Dont think they will ever allow a plate class to be unsnareable like leather wearers.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Xevz View Post
    Only way a ret will get a gap closer is if they lose the ability to dispel snares off themselves. Dont think they will ever allow a plate class to be unsnareable like leather wearers.
    What does some trivial armor value that barely has any impact on the game any more have to do with a gap closer or snare removal? There are so many abilities that affect armor that plate dps sometimes don't even have the most armor these days (next patch shadowpriests and boomkins will have more armor than Rets possibly). Plate wearers are not even remotely the most hard to kill specs in the game. Also, plate already often have more snarebreaks that some leather, so I really just have no clue where you're going with this...
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-06-30 at 04:16 PM.

  10. #250
    having inq be 1 min with 3hp will help out alot in pvp now in pve it isnt that big of a deal tho

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    "balanced around" does not translate to "works fine", which I perfectly explained in my previous post.
    Feel free to (re-)read.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 08:54 AM ----------


    well yeah, no.

    Warriors have YET ANOTHER gapcloser in the form of Heroic Leap besides charge,
    Rogues have a baseline sprint and a baseline runspeed increase besides the whole "stealth" thing which allows for perefectly fine engagements\disengagements,
    and DKs have a baseline ranged powerful slow besides Death Grip, so it kinda sets off longer CDs for those classes.

    So do you really want to compare BASELINE means to close the gap between Rets, warriors, rogues and DKs ?


    Giving Rets LAotL as a baseline ability, THAT would be great, because Rets have NO baseline means to close the gap.
    If Rets had LAotL as a baseline move, then Speed of Light would AT LEAST become a choice.
    I stand by my point. Your original post said that having a gap closer above 15 seconds would not work, so I showed that such a gap closer is the exception, not the norm. You did not mention all the baseline mobility tools; if you had, I would not have brought up Shadow Step and would have had something about Hand of Freedom and Emancipate.

    Now are those two enough for our baseline mobility? Perhaps not. But I would hesitate trying to change Long Arm of the Law into a baseline spell. It is a powerful, sustain mobility mechanic that might force any kind of burst mobility options in the talent tree to be weaker than they should be (like having that 45 second CD that neither of us would want). And besides, this is the lvl 15 talent tier that we are talking about. We access it pretty fast. I do not mind having LAotL on the tier if all the other option were as strong as it. Like I said in my original post, it might be interesting to try replacing Speed of the Light for Ret with a line attack similar to Flying Serpent Kick. Something a little different that still covers a lot of ground.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Sathen View Post
    I stand by my point. Your original post said that having a gap closer above 15 seconds would not work, so I showed that such a gap closer is the exception, not the norm. You did not mention all the baseline mobility tools; if you had, I would not have brought up Shadow Step and would have had something about Hand of Freedom and Emancipate.

    Now are those two enough for our baseline mobility? Perhaps not. But I would hesitate trying to change Long Arm of the Law into a baseline spell. It is a powerful, sustain mobility mechanic that might force any kind of burst mobility options in the talent tree to be weaker than they should be (like having that 45 second CD that neither of us would want). And besides, this is the lvl 15 talent tier that we are talking about. We access it pretty fast. I do not mind having LAotL on the tier if all the other option were as strong as it. Like I said in my original post, it might be interesting to try replacing Speed of the Light for Ret with a line attack similar to Flying Serpent Kick. Something a little different that still covers a lot of ground.
    perhaps it's my fault I didn't state it clearly that alone gap closer won't cut it.

    Anyway, it's just as simple as that, you won't chase anybody with just a gap closer alone, especially one such as weak as LAotL.

    Why would you hesitate about baseline LAotL?
    It is NOT powerfful, it is easily negated, it is not even instant gap closer, it requiers hit cap to be reliable, and as I mentioned earlier, Paladins have no baseline means to close the gap at all, is that not enough of an argument for you?

  13. #253
    Yup, as many of us noticed several times over the last couple of years, one of the most massive and glaring problem with the MoP talent trees is that they are made up of 70%+ former Ret abilities. Lol, some tiers even have multiple former Ret talents or spells. So yeah, I think it's about time that several abilities such as one like LAotL, went back into the baseline Ret spellbook where they belong; especially the ones that feel mandatory. I mean seriously, what is one classic Holy or Prot only abilities that Ret now get's to use? Ardent Defender was one of the only ones they even considered, but it didn't make it to live.

  14. #254
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Laotl is nice but id like to have some alternatives too in that tier. As far as baseline abilties go id rather have soj proc from judgement.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    Laotl is nice but id like to have some alternatives too in that tier. As far as baseline abilties go id rather have soj proc from judgement.
    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Judgment. It interacts with Seal of Truth to apply its DoT, so why shouldn't it interact with Seal of Justice to apply its slow? Especially with Burden of Guilt removed from the talent tree.

    As for the rest of the changes, they are decent. Still want to see what they plan on doing for Glyph of Turn Evil, as that might make or break the new talent. I have mixed feelings on the Inquisition change, though. It makes it easier to use, but that was never my problem with the spell. I still hope they have plans of replacing it with a more interesting mechanic.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    Laotl is nice but id like to have some alternatives too in that tier. As far as baseline abilties go id rather have soj proc from judgement.
    This would make SOJ so much more appealing AND useful. Seriously.

    And it's not like it affects Holy or Prot, as a Ret-only seal. Losing BoG really hurts Ret's control/closing ability. Sure, we're nigh-unpeelable with HoF/Emanc, but getting TO the target from 30+ yds out takes an eternity if they're not also slowed.

    Seems like such an easy and elegant fix, and therefore highly unlikely
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  17. #257
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    About ES, the dispell protection hardly matters becuase its still way worse than prism. They should add a secondary effect to make it PvP viable. Like 4 sec root after final damage, something defensive for last heal.

  18. #258
    Nobody used burden of guild because it's garbage compared to 30 second hoj and we're basically like ferals in that we can remove our own roots and snares and we can do p insane ranged damage with CD's popped tbh.

    I won't miss it because I never used it.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Emophia View Post
    Nobody used burden of guild because it's garbage compared to 30 second hoj and we're basically like ferals in that we can remove our own roots and snares and we can do p insane ranged damage with CD's popped tbh.

    I won't miss it because I never used it.
    Except that feral does insane damage even without cooldowns? I may be the minority, but I use burden in 2s all the time, granted I play double ret. Not to mention the PvE utility it takes away from us.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Emophia View Post
    Nobody used burden of guild because it's garbage compared to 30 second hoj and we're basically like ferals in that we can remove our own roots and snares and we can do p insane ranged damage with CD's popped tbh.

    I won't miss it because I never used it.
    Feral's also put a 50% snare when using almost all of their main attacks. I would say it is much harder to kite a Feral druid than a Ret Paladin.

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