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  1. #141
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straamibuu View Post
    The Glyph is going, the fear won't be instant. Any instant CC that can be used offensively Blizz frowns upon (as stated already: see Blood Fear), that is because you can use it as an extra interrupt, way to catch someone on a mount etc. The reason AOE fear has always existed (Priests/Locks since vanilla, short hiatus for locks in MoP),is that a ranged class has to get into melee range to be able to use them.

    Still curious as to the point of handing out a fear however.
    So, let me see:

    Ranged attack from WHEREVER THEY WANT. Melee must be close.

    DK can grip, if stuned can IB, if feared can LB. War can charge, if feared can BR. Ret don't have a reliable gap closer - can get a speed boost and use Freedom maybe but can't counter a fear.

    OK, so Ranged can attack form distance and can peel whoever comes close - some melee have reliable gap closers but Ret not so much.

    Ranged have the OPTION to positioning and melees have to be exposed all the time. If not with FoJ, a Ret must be in melee even to CC someone and the only peel have 2 mins CD and break with a DoT.

    It's the complete oposite of how it should be.

    The one who is exposed the most, must have the better moviment, peels and defensive to be able to hold out.

    And the one who have the better options to be behind a pillar so he can attack from a protected position near the healer, is less open to be CCd should have less defensives in order to be balanced. Or else, what's the upside from being melee and downside of being ranged?

    And even since a ranged have so many positioning flexibility, they can and they DO get near whoever they must to get a CC. What's the downside for a ranged to get close? They have even better defensives than melee right know... if a Lock/Priest die if they come close to the healer that may be a point, but a Lock can even get close, fear and teleport back. Right. Not OP at all. Any problem he can be with Blood Horror, any problem he can PainSup himself, heal himself to full... pets can peel for him.

    Look, the day someone kicks a Lock/Priest for a Ret Paladin you talk to me, OK? Better, if someone kicks a ranged for a melee if not a DK for grip or rogue for Stealth/CC, you get here and we talk.
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    FTFY, but yeah.

    Forbearance is the albatross around this class's neck in PVP.

    My favorite is the people that are QQing about new UbS in PVP (30sec DivProt and 2.5min Bubble) saying that pala will be totally uncounterable now. Lulz.
    Rofl, yeah I love all the people bitching about Unbreakable Spirit who don't understand that it's not even really a buff and that it's already petty much like that... Ret had absolutely no problem getting the full benefit from the talent due to it's very high holy power generation and use, and I'm pretty sure holy got most of it too. It's so funny to see that after close to a decade we still have to listen to people saying "zOMg bbblz plates nd heelz... omg no wai nurf!!!"

    Nothing can beat Clemency, especially since when in all their genius they added a dispel to Ret's Hand of Sacrifice. Who needs a 2.5 min bubble when I can get my healer out of CC twice every 2 minutes.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-06-14 at 09:12 PM.

  3. #143
    The defensive side of the Retribution spec is rather weak in PvP. If they want to bolster it through the Unbreakable Spirit talent then we will just have to see how it shakes out. AKA, How strong will it make the Holy Spec? You don't always have a pocket healer so it could be a viable choice in some situations.

    I dunno about a 30 second DP. It seems like an over buff for the larger defense issue (see WW monks Ring of Peace and population issues). I wouldn't be surprised if they increase the base CD. I'd like to see Divine Protection as a 25% - 30% all damage decrease with a 1.5min - 2min baseline CD personally. They could then burn the DP glyph in a fire, because I hate having to switch that thing in and out all day.

    Hell, if they threw a Fear break/immunity on Devotion Aura or gave us back our Stun removal we would finally have a (mostly) complete PvP kit.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiell View Post
    The defensive side of the Retribution spec is rather weak in PvP. If they want to bolster it through the Unbreakable Spirit talent then we will just have to see how it shakes out. AKA, How strong will it make the Holy Spec? You don't always have a pocket healer so it could be a viable choice in some situations.

    I dunno about a 30 second DP. It seems like an over buff for the larger defense issue (see WW monks Ring of Peace and population issues). I wouldn't be surprised if they increase the base CD. I'd like to see Divine Protection as a 25% - 30% all damage decrease with a 1.5min - 2min baseline CD personally. They could then burn the DP glyph in a fire, because I hate having to switch that thing in and out all day.

    Hell, if they threw a Fear break/immunity on Devotion Aura or gave us back our Stun removal we would finally have a (mostly) complete PvP kit.
    Unbreakable spirit is not chaning in any way for Ret. Since Ret produces and consumes tons of holy power, Rets with Unbreakable Spirit already have 50% reduced cooldown on those abilities right now on live.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiell View Post
    The defensive side of the Retribution spec is rather weak in PvP. If they want to bolster it through the Unbreakable Spirit talent then we will just have to see how it shakes out. AKA, How strong will it make the Holy Spec? You don't always have a pocket healer so it could be a viable choice in some situations.

    I dunno about a 30 second DP. It seems like an over buff for the larger defense issue (see WW monks Ring of Peace and population issues). I wouldn't be surprised if they increase the base CD. I'd like to see Divine Protection as a 25% - 30% all damage decrease with a 1.5min - 2min baseline CD personally. They could then burn the DP glyph in a fire, because I hate having to switch that thing in and out all day.

    Hell, if they threw a Fear break/immunity on Devotion Aura or gave us back our Stun removal we would finally have a (mostly) complete PvP kit.
    I don't know know about Holy (haven't really played it much this expansion) but for Ret this is not changing anything. Rets use enough HP that it is ALREADY at 30 seconds. Bubble is ALREADY at 2.5 minutes.

    The only difference is that if this goes forward, you don't have to use HP to get the cool down reduction.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Unbreakable spirit is not chaning in any way for Ret. Since Ret produces and consumes tons of holy power, Rets with Unbreakable Spirit already have 50% reduced cooldown on those abilities right now on live.
    I agree entirely Tangra. Not game changing in anyway.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Unbreakable spirit is not chaning in any way for Ret. Since Ret produces and consumes tons of holy power, Rets with Unbreakable Spirit already have 50% reduced cooldown on those abilities right now on live.
    You don't always get to spend or generate Holy Power as freely as you like though. Some targets have more mobility then others, CC can lock you down, you may need to reset position, or play defensively by pillar humping etc. Given the choice I would rather the talent just reduce the cooldown without me having to do anything for it.

  7. #147
    All these awesome changes.
    Incoming ret actually being good again.
    rets are already overpowered (5.3)

    sorry to burst ur bubble.

    and now ur going to be biased and say thats not true, because half the paladin community is backpeddlers..

  8. #148
    Back in Wrath of the Lich King when Arena was anything with a 10 minute or more CD you still couldn't use Lay on Hands when you glyphed it to reduce it by 3 minutes to make it a 7 minute CD.

    Also, the Unbreakable spirit is nice for when we get CCed or something we still get 30 seconds off Divine Protection, to me, that's the biggest part of this as Divine Shield was already easy to get to 2.5 mins

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramiell View Post
    You don't always get to spend or generate Holy Power as freely as you like though. Some targets have more mobility then others, CC can lock you down, you may need to reset position, or play defensively by pillar humping etc. Given the choice I would rather the talent just reduce the cooldown without me having to do anything for it.
    Not quite, you can always WoG/EF to spend Holy Power, even as Ret. No need to have a target in melee range.

  10. #150
    The Patient
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    Hmm, I think you guys just motivated me to level my paladin now :P Not sure because im still in love with my monk.

  11. #151
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    UmbSpirit will be arround the same place.

    The reason everybody uses Clemency is that 2 hands are almost mandatory in every game. With Absolve effect is something that if it were on 30 secs CD we would use it, now after the second use we're even frustrated - imagine if we could use only once every 2 mins. I mean, it's gameplay - Ret dispeling a healer CC is a big deal.

    Of course, not to mention BoP/Freedom.

    In a 1 or 2 min game a dispel on your healer can save your life better than bubble and even to be able to bubble twice on 3 mins doesn't mean that's really situational.
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Rofl, yeah I love all the people bitching about Unbreakable Spirit who don't understand that it's not even really a buff and that it's already petty much like that... Ret had absolutely no problem getting the full benefit from the talent due to it's very high holy power generation and use, and I'm pretty sure holy got most of it too. It's so funny to see that after close to a decade we still have to listen to people saying "zOMg bbblz plates nd heelz... omg no wai nurf!!!"

    Nothing can beat Clemency, especially since when in all their genius they added a dispel to Ret's Hand of Sacrifice. Who needs a 2.5 min bubble when I can get my healer out of CC twice every 2 minutes.
    The only difference between 5.3 and 5.4 concerning Unbreakable Spirit is that Divine Protection is 30 seconds instead of ~45-50 - and survivability is a HUGE issue for Ret - and you'd be giving up Clemency to get that. Anyone crying that ret turns OP from this change has no idea what they're talking about.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Hb View Post
    rets are already overpowered (5.3)

    sorry to burst ur bubble.

    and now ur going to be biased and say thats not true, because half the paladin community is backpeddlers..
    The only people that are saying Ret is Op currently are players who are at very low ratings and have no idea what they are doing.

  14. #154
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I'll give US a try. Clemency is great but survivability is our greatest weakness. And DP being useable while stunned makes it quite powerful for a 30sec cooldown.

  15. #155
    well some good changes but Unbreakable Spirit seems quite strong a 30 sec cd for a 20 sec 20% damage reduction?
    we lose our second freedom but it think its worth it.

  16. #156
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Bsod, if you don't think Hand of Sacrifice and Protection is WAY more important than Freedom, you're not playing the game correctly.

    Dispeling your healer is WAY more important than bubble, it can save you AND your partner - not to mention BoPing them. Right now the UbSpirit had to reduce Divine Shield to 1 min CD to be worth more than Clemency - MAYBE.

    Even with this change, good Rets will go Clemency 90% of the time anyway.
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Bsod View Post
    well some good changes but Unbreakable Spirit seems quite strong a 30 sec cd for a 20 sec 20% damage reduction?
    we lose our second freedom but it think its worth it.
    Divine protection reduces magic damage by 40% for 10 seconds. It is only a 20% for magic and physical damage if a glyph is used, and still only for 10 seconds.

    Unbreakable Spirit:
    Reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield, Divine Protection and Lay on Hands by 1% per Holy Power consumed, up to a maximum of 50% coo ldown reduction.

    Most Rets are already using enough HP that if they talent Unbreakable Spirit, then Divine protection is essentially on a 30 second cool down already. Hardly OP now, and if this goes live, it won't be all that different from now except you don't have to spend HP to get the cool down reduction.

    Not to mention that a lot of Rets will still take Clemency over Unbreakable Spirit.

  18. #158
    So playstyle-wise ret palas are warriors, just slower and more flashy. All hail the homogenization.

  19. #159
    Pit Lord Sett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    So playstyle-wise ret palas are warriors, just slower and more flashy. All hail the homogenization.
    I'd be really worried if our playstyle was like a hunter. Man, that'd be awkward!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    Beth clearly did not understand the rules to Paper Rock Scissors Gun.
    Let's look fabulous~. A Paladin transmogrifier item list.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    So playstyle-wise ret palas are warriors, just slower and more flashy. All hail the homogenization.
    Ret and warrior have nothing in common. Warriors can prevent incoming damage with a ridiculous number of stuns and interrupts, Rets do the opposite and can barely shut down enemy damage at all, but make up for it with defensive abilities. Warriors have more cc on their kill target, Ret's provide a bit of traditional off-target cc with FoJ and occasionally Repent; overall both have mediocre traditional cc. Warriors have amazing burst mobility, Rets have amazing sustained mobility. Warriors are hard to finish off, Ret's are expected to not let themselves get very low to begin with. The two playstyles quite literally have nothing in common other than plate armor and two-handed weapons. The only homogenization that has occurred is that Warriors were good since day 1 of arena, while Ret had to wait years for any semblance of viability.

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