Mage 5.4 Discussion

[Methusula]

@Methusula: Yes. Whats wrong with the question?

Read Nightfall's answer above.

[Deleted]

What a strange question.

Lets see:

Priest ones are active

Mages one are active too.

and quite fun

I dont comment fun because its in the eye of the observer

and powerful in certain situations.

Mage talents are allways Powerful because we get the buff all the time not just on times every x seconds.

They provide some utility in healing

That they give healing comes from the point of the priest. Mages usually dont heal groups. Therefor the dmg is adjustet so its something really different.

and aoe,

We have a bombtier which is AE and a singlebufftier. They have an Singlebufftier and a bombtier. So no real advantage.

you can choose how much you want them involved in your rotation by choosing talents with different CDs

Same for the mage: 3 Talents, overall same result, different CD, Runtime and activation.

they are all instant, which helps mobility,

We are caster not bunnyhopping Melees. Instant or not is something belonging to the ground mechanic. U cant say ability x is better then y because its instant. Or do you thrown Fireblast as Frostmage again a boss because its instant?

they are diverse as they all have different niches.

As said above: Same for the mage.

Moreover you can use them as utility or completely forget about them on a single-target fight if you wish so.

Just wrong. U dont forget about them. They are part of the dmg-rotation. If u dont cast it u dont make fulldmg. Its like forgeting Combustion as fire or Orb as Frost. Ok its not that much dmg you loose but its something.

And the animation's great.

Ok that point is right. But the question here is: How would a Invocation look like? But yes overall that could be more. But that dont change gameplay.

All in all i get to one single conclusion for both mage and shadow t90:
U choose the talent which brings the most dmg on a specific fight.
U click the button every x seconds to make use of the talent.

[Polarthief]

Most of the L90s are fun little buffs or spells you gain that (for the most part) don't make you gain THAT much DPS/Healing/Tank viability to the point where you could play competitively without them (and even if they were "mandatory", they're still fun for the most part). The Mage talents are 100% mandatory or you'll be bottom every time on top of being irritating.

Priest ones are actually a good example (as are Paladins) of the more 'fun' ones. Rogue is another good example, especially in 5.2 until 5.3 when they buffed Shuriken Toss (and then before they nerfed it), on top of Anticipation being a pretty decent overall talent (especially for Assassination due to their 2/3 and then 3/4 Combo Point abilities).

Hell, you could look at any class and they either have fun talents that are pretty well liked, or boring talents that aren't hindering in some way like the Mage talents.

[Deleted]

It was calculated on other times in the forum.
Our lvl90s comes down to ~12% dmg.
So if we say we take IW and forget about it we loose 6% dmg while not maintaining it. Lets take a look:
SPriests: Halo is roughly at 3.5%
Warlock: They got the Cast while Move Talent. Here u can see a 90er which is OP.
Hunter: GlaiveToss ~6%
Ret: Execution Sentence ~4%
FuryWarrior: Bloodbath ~6%


Some other classes like Druid or DK get utility. This things u cant compare to mage. We got our utiliy in the Freezetier. Ok its not as helpful as a raidheal. But that belongs more to the encounterdesign then to the tier.

[Polarthief]

All in all i get to one single conclusion for both mage and shadow t90:
U choose the talent which brings the most dmg on a specific fight.
U click the button every x seconds to make use of the talent.

Except Mage ones are aggravating to keep up on many fights, and our DPS relies completely on it, but okay.

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It was calculated on other times in the forum.
Our lvl90s comes down to ~12% dmg.
So if we say we take IW and forget about it we loose 6% dmg while not maintaining it. Lets take a look:
SPriests: Halo is roughly at 3.5%
Warlock: They got the Cast while Move Talent. Here u can see a 90er which is OP.
Hunter: GlaiveToss ~6%
Ret: Execution Sentence ~4%
FuryWarrior: Bloodbath ~6%


Some other classes like Druid or DK get utility. This things u cant compare to mage. We got our utiliy in the Freezetier. Ok its not as helpful as a raidheal. But that belongs more to the encounterdesign then to the tier.

You don't seem to realize our real damage is more like 90% and with the buff, we turn into 102-103%...

Just our L90 talents give more do NOT mean that our base damage isn't affected by it. If we had FUN talents, all our talents would be buffed up 10-12%, GUARANTEED.

[Deleted]

What exactly is the problem with Mages btw? From all i see they have the highest dps atm and will continue to do so in the next patch if scaling is not adressed.

Is it simply the annoyance of keeping up the lvl 90 talents? I mean keeping up buffs is part of the game, many other classes have similar mechanics (well not exactly but hey its a flavour of the class). Or is it PvP concerns? Cause PvP Blance completely shifts every patch and from what i saw, mages never have been bad for long...

[Methusula]

Lets see:



Mages one are active too.


I dont comment fun because its in the eye of the observer


Mage talents are allways Powerful because we get the buff all the time not just on times every x seconds.


That they give healing comes from the point of the priest. Mages usually dont heal groups. Therefor the dmg is adjustet so its something really different.


We have a bombtier which is AE and a singlebufftier. They have an Singlebufftier and a bombtier. So no real advantage.


Same for the mage: 3 Talents, overall same result, different CD, Runtime and activation.



We are caster not bunnyhopping Melees. Instant or not is something belonging to the ground mechanic. U cant say ability x is better then y because its instant. Or do you thrown Fireblast as Frostmage again a boss because its instant?


As said above: Same for the mage.


Just wrong. U dont forget about them. They are part of the dmg-rotation. If u dont cast it u dont make fulldmg. Its like forgeting Combustion as fire or Orb as Frost. Ok its not that much dmg you loose but its something.



Ok that point is right. But the question here is: How would a Invocation look like? But yes overall that could be more. But that dont change gameplay.

All in all i get to one single conclusion for both mage and shadow t90:
U choose the talent which brings the most dmg on a specific fight.
U click the button every x seconds to make use of the talent.

Wow, these are some of the worst arguments I have seen in a long time. Where do I begin? Almost every point you made here is nonsense.

First off, how are Mage talents active? Are you referring to mana gains, because the damage is passive, and for 2/3 of the specs that is ALL that matters.

Mage talents are not always powerful because we are balanced around constant maintenance. This is an illusion that even the simplest of minds can see right through. The priest talents have a variety of situational uses that make them very versatile.

your comment on utility and healing makes no sense to me so I'll let someone else try to decipher that one.

As for aoe, you bring in another tier for some reason even though we are talking about what the 90 TALENTS do.

You cannot choose how much to use the Mage 90 talents. You must maximise their uptime if you want to compete. The point he was making about different CD's was that you could choose how often to use them. The differences with the Mage talents are incredibly superficial.

In today's endgame, whether raiding or PvP, cast time vs instant cast matters. Your comment about bunnyhopping melee is again, nonsense. Not sure again, what you mean about "ground mechanic" comment so I'll leave it alone. You then strawman by making a logically false comparison of Fireblast. It is a fact, that the Priest talents would be far less attractive if they had a cast time.

Comparing the damage Priest talents do to Combustion which is THE damage CD for Fire is silly. Even the Frozen Orb one is stupid since it too is a major damage CD that serves as a major proc generator.

All in all, I get that you are grossly oversimplifying the the talents to try to prove a point...unsuccessfully.

[mrgreenthump]

It was calculated on other times in the forum.
Our lvl90s comes down to ~12% dmg.
So if we say we take IW and forget about it we loose 6% dmg while not maintaining it. Lets take a look:
SPriests: Halo is roughly at 3.5%
Warlock: They got the Cast while Move Talent. Here u can see a 90er which is OP.
Hunter: GlaiveToss ~6%
Ret: Execution Sentence ~4%
FuryWarrior: Bloodbath ~6%


Some other classes like Druid or DK get utility. This things u cant compare to mage. We got our utiliy in the Freezetier. Ok its not as helpful as a raidheal. But that belongs more to the encounterdesign then to the tier.

What are even on abt? Number dont matter when blizz tunes the spec to take into account the power of the talents. So our co-efficients are just tad bit lower than other classes.


Oh and calling our level 90's anything but stupid is kinda rofl. Spec invoc, you cast evocation every 60 seconds, aoe 60 secs, multitarget 60 secs, cleave 60 secs, simple as, you dont cast every 35 or 85, you do it at 60 every single time, unless there is a mechanic that the boss is immune, so you get a "free" refresh..

With RoP you stand in the rune, move --> you have to recast the rune always..

With IW you don't even use the active part anymore, so its just buffing your damage by 6%

What a great set of talents they are! They are basicly maintanence talents as is, you have to keep them up to do competitive dps and they are trivial to do so. There is no real change ever to any of the talents, any situation you throw at them, you want to use the talents the same way, what's the point in that? And atm you even pic the talents based on spec, not the encounter..

[Methusula]

What are even on abt? Number dont matter when blizz tunes the spec to take into account the power of the talents. So our co-efficients are just tad bit lower than other classes.


Oh and calling our level 90's anything but stupid is kinda rofl. Spec invoc, you cast evocation every 60 seconds, aoe 60 secs, multitarget 60 secs, cleave 60 secs, simple as, you dont cast every 35 or 85, you do it at 60 every single time, unless there is a mechanic that the boss is immune, so you get a "free" refresh..

With RoP you stand in the rune, move --> you have to recast the rune always..

With IW you don't even use the active part anymore, so its just buffing your damage by 6%

What a great set of talents they are! They are basicly maintanence talents as is, you have to keep them up to do competitive dps and they are trivial to do so. There is no real change ever to any of the talents, any situation you throw at them, you want to use the talents the same way, what's the point in that? And atm you even pic the talents based on spec, not the encounter..

Exactly.

They do NOTHING to add to the class. all they do is restrict. There is no fun to be had there, and certainly not worthy of our final talent.

[Nightfall]

@Tomathan
What's your point? I don't understand. It's almost like you argue for the sake of arguing.

Mage t90s are not active in a sense that all of them are abilities that do little apart from granting you a 15% damage buff. And do you seriously believe that this 15% buff is something mages get on top of a median damage of all other classes? Mage class is designed to be equal to other dps specs with some 90% uptime of t90 abilities. Thus you have to participate in additional tedium of maintaining this 15% damage buff to stay competitive. Other classes have that 15% built in. A good example of 15% damage buff that is above all else is a priest talent Twist of Faith, which increases all damage by 15% for 10 sec after damaging an enemy with less than 20% health. So if the fight has constant incoming adds you can have passive 15% additional damage even if you just cast 1 dot at them.

What's your point with mages don't heal? Priests have healing utility built in their t90s, mages do not have any utility in their t90s. You ask why mages t90 talents are worse then those of priests and then start bringing in other mage talents as points in your argument that mage t90 are good?

[Deleted]

First off, how are Mage talents active? Are you referring to mana gains, because the damage is passive, and for 2/3 of the specs that is ALL that matters.

I dont know:
Active is for me: I must do something (for example: Cast Halo or Cast Evocation)
Passive is for me: Something happens while i do other things (for example: Glyph Ice Lance)
And if u refer to the dmg: Passive dmgmodification is the (so called) passive of IW. Active means u activate the modificator like casting Rune or Evocation.

Mage talents are not always powerful because we are balanced around constant maintenance. This is an illusion that even the simplest of minds can see right through. The priest talents have a variety of situational uses that make them very versatile.

Which is the situational use of Halo? U just spam it on CD. Very situational. And of course are we balanced around using it on CD. So are Hunter, Priests, Shamans etc.
(btw as you mentioned it above: This was a really stupid argument. Why the hell should Blizz balance something with a CD of 30 seconds around using it every 1 minute?

As for aoe, you bring in another tier for some reason even though we are talking about what the 90 TALENTS do.

OK i will explain it in another way: Just imagine we change simple the Lvl of our tiers: Just switch Lvl75 with Lvl90. So we can now compare our dmgmodifications with the real dmgmodifications of the priests. And our AE-Tier with their AE-Tier.

You cannot choose how much to use the Mage 90 talents. You must maximise their uptime if you want to compete. The point he was making about different CD's was that you could choose how often to use them. The differences with the Mage talents are incredibly superficial.

If u dont use Priest Lvl 90s on CD u dont get the most dmg out of the same time.
If u dont use Mage Lvl 90s on CD u dont get the most dmg out of the same time.
See? No different. The different is maybe the margin u loose if u ignore but thats again a fact about balancing. We loose more dmg ignoring lvl90s and the priest loose more dmg ignoring Dotuptime. Different mechanics work different.
The mainquestion here was to maintaining: And for this both classes has to activate an ability every x seconds.

In today's endgame, whether raiding or PvP, cast time vs instant cast matters. Your comment about bunnyhopping melee is again, nonsense. Not sure again, what you mean about "ground mechanic" comment so I'll leave it alone. You then strawman by making a logically false comparison of Fireblast. It is a fact, that the Priest talents would be far less attractive if they had a cast time.

Ground Mechanic is:
The magetier is about movement and DMG.
The priesttier is about Healing and DMG.
Dont compare 2 different things.

Comparing the damage Priest talents do to Combustion which is THE damage CD for Fire is silly. Even the Froen Orb one is stupid since it too is a major damage CD that serves as a major proc generator.

I dont compare numbers: All i said was: If u dont use it u loose dmg. Different classes have different abilities with different dmg on different CDs. U use them all wisely and nearly at CD and u get the most dmg.

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A good example of 15% damage buff that is above all else is a priest talent Twist of Faith, which increases all damage by 15% for 10 sec after damaging an enemy with less than 20% health.

Which means they have to attack these mobs to make more dmg even if for example are set to another task at the boss. And this is better than casting a spell every 60 seconds? I dont get it.

What's your point with mages don't heal? Priests have healing utility built in their t90s, mages do not. You ask why mages t90 talents are worse then those of priests and then start bringing in other mage talents as points in your argument that mage t90 are good?

U said it above: To compare priest lvl 90 to mage lvl90 is stupid. Mage has a dmgbuff (which the priest has on lvl75) while Priest has some AE-Dmg-Spell which the mage has on Lvl75.
So that is the mainconclusion: U cant compare it. Its like comparing a stone vs the sky and saying the sky is blue so he is better.

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Just our L90 talents give more do NOT mean that our base damage isn't affected by it. If we had FUN talents, all our talents would be buffed up 10-12%, GUARANTEED.

And Hunter base dmg is 94% while the lvl90 makes 6%.
If they would get Funtalents all other of their abilitys would get a 6% buff.
Yes i think i get what u want to say.

[texhex]

i am abit sad, that blizz removes our old incanters ward and gives it to warlock instead :*(

[Swizzle]

Since this thread has been basically derailed and is 67 pages long as of this post, I am locking this, and will lock any further threads made until the next PTR build. Once the next build hits, feel free to open a new thread discussing any and all potential changes. As of now, I think everyone could use a bit of a break from arguing with one another.