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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Remove them and give us 12-13% passive. Too high? Nerf it 1%. Too low? Buff it 1%. It's not going to be much different from that, and it will make a LOT of Mages happy.

    Now if they give us a DPS ability (similar to Priests/Paladins/Shamans), then nerf it to ~10% or so. They could just as easily give us a raid or self utility tier and not worry about tweaking around two things.

    Bottom line: They have to be removed by 6.0 or Mage numbers will plummet, dramatically. They already have after every patch (multiple websites confirm this), and if another expansion hits with these garbage talents, you can be rest assured that Mages will appear less and less in every raid group.
    So removing all of them and giving us a passive buff to compensate is an easy solution (basically, a permanent invocation buff). I'm trying to think if they've ever done this before though. Normally they give flat % buffs to core spells. This proved to be a poor solution (the 13% Frostbolt buff basically made it broken on the last PTR). I don't think they want to just apply a global passive to our skills and modifying any spells damage doesn't just change it's damage; it also changes how the other spells in the rotation are weighted in comparison to it.

    They've already said they are strongly against adding more utility to the classes in order to make them more competitive for raid slots, so I also don't think that is going to happen.

    The changes to the tier will probably be damage spells / cooldowns. Which are hard to balance. I'm open to being wrong (and hope that I am) but past trends of balancing don't support major changes like a tier overhaul which has the potential to completely change how each spec plays mid-expansion.

    I know what you want to happen, it just doesn't seem realistic based on previous trends.

    My main question to you right now is: Are you ok with tier bonuses alleviating the major concerns of the specs?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    There should probably be a like.. theorycrafting only section or something on the forums. One of the reasons he doesn't like posting here (from what he tells me) is that there is too much 'noise' on these forums.

    He used to be pretty active over on EJ when the rest were there (Kavan et al), but faded away when EJ died.

    There really isn't a place where hardcore theorycrafting (with like pages and pages of numbers) can happen anymore.
    Wouldn't be hard to make a Theorycrafting thread for each class forum and add stricter rules on it. (Just, not nearly as strict as EJ because those forums were far too elitist).

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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    The changes to the tier will probably be damage spells / cooldowns. Which are hard to balance. I'm open to being wrong (and hope that I am) but past trends of balancing don't support major changes like a tier overhaul which has the potential to completely change how each spec plays mid-expansion.

    I know what you want to happen, it just doesn't seem realistic based on previous trends.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    General
    Innervate now causes the target to gain mana equal to 50% of the casting Druid’s Spirit every second for 10 seconds.
    Wild Mushroom Restoration version of the ability now summons a single mushroom at the friendly target’s location. If the mushroom is recast, the mushroom moves to the new location and retains its accumulated bonus healing. A single mushroom now heals for as much as what 3 mushrooms combined healed for previously.
    Wrath has its mana cost increased by 50%.
    Talents
    Dream of Cenarius has been completely redesigned to reduce complexity and increase usability, but maintain the spirit of the effects. Benefits now varies by specialization.
    Balance: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Casting Healing Touch increases the damage bonus of the Druid's next Eclipse by 10%.
    Feral: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Casting Healing Touch causes the Druid's next Rip to deal 15% increased damage.
    Guardian: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Mangle (Bear) critical strikes have a 20% chance to make the next Healing Touch or Rebirth instant, free, and castable in all forms.
    Restoration: Causes Wrath to deal 20% more damage and heals a nearby friendly target for 100% of the damage done.
    Heart of the Wild when activated, now also provides a 25% bonus to healing for Restoration Druids.
    Mass Entanglement no longer has a limit on the number of targets that could be affected, up from 5.
    Nature's Swiftness is no longer a talent, and is now an ability learned by Restoration Druids at level 30.
    Nature’s Vigil when activated, causes healing spells now trigger an additional heal on a nearby ally for 25% of the amount healed. This is in addition to the existing effect where it damages a nearby enemy target for 25% of the healing done.
    Soul of the Forest has been partially redesigned to make it more attractive to Balance, Guardian, and Restoration Druids.
    Balance: Wrath, Starfire, and Starsurge casts have a 8% chance to cause the next Astral Communion to instantly advance the Druid to the next Eclipse.
    Guardian: Increases Rage generation from Mangle (Bear) by 20% instead of 30%, but the bonus now also applies to Rage generated by Primal Fury.
    Restoration: Now causes the Druid to gain 100% haste (up from 75%) on their next spell after casting Swiftmend.
    Ysera's Gift, a new talent healing the Druid for 5% of their maximum health every 5 seconds. If the Druid is at full health, it will heal the most injured friendly target nearby instead. This talent fills the spot vacated by Nature's Swiftness.
    Glyphs
    New Glyph: Glyph of Efflorescence increases the healing done by Swiftmend by 20%, causes the Efflorescence healing effect to be triggered by Wild Mushroom instead of Swiftmend, and lasts as long as the Wild Mushroom is active.
    Glyph of Innervate now causes Innervate to give both the Druid and the target 60% of the normal effect of the spell if it's cast on a target other than the Druid.
    Balance
    Eclipse now energizes the Druid for 50% of their maximum mana when triggered, up from 35%.
    Moonkin Form no longer reduces all damage taken by 15%.
    Starfire has its mana cost increased by 50%.
    Starsurge has its mana cost increased by 50%.
    Restoration
    Genesis is a new Restoration spell learned at level 88. Genesis targets all party or raid members within 60 yards and accelerates the casting Druid's Rejuvenation effects, causing them to heal and expire at 400% of the normal rate. Costs the same amount of mana to cast as Rejuvenation.
    Swiftmend area-of-effect healing effect is now called Efflorescence.
    Wild Mushroom: Bloom is no longer capable of critical strikes, and accumulates overhealing done by Rejuvenation by 100%, down from 150%. Overhealing bonus no longer benefits from Naturalist or Mastery: Harmony.
    Just saying. That's quite a revamp mid-expansion, and this is only the first build, so expect more changes.

    (HIGHLY suggest reading the official notes on front-page/official site to read easier)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    My main question to you right now is: Are you ok with tier bonuses alleviating the major concerns of the specs?
    If they actually did, maybe. Fire's 2P/4P are garbage and don't fix a thing. Arcane's... I'm going to put a pin in Arcane for now. Frost's are... weird, to say the least; the 2P is definitely going to be awkward and even a little bit pointless; the 4P depends how hard it will hit, but neither of these will actually alleviate the issues. Fire still scales too high and Frost still scales too low.

    They tried this with the Legendary Meta and it didn't turn out too well.

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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    My main question to you right now is: Are you ok with tier bonuses alleviating the major concerns of the specs?
    I'm trying to understand this question.

    Do you mean "Are you ok with a design where tier set bonuses are used to 'fix' spec/class issues?" (this is probably what you mean)

    Or do you mean "The new tier set bonuses fix the spec issues, are you ok with that arrangement?"

    For me personally, I think both is a "No".

    I do not think tier set bonuses should be used to fix a spec, since, naturally, that tier bonus is transitory. What happens after the set get replaced? What about before? What about the people who can't get it as quick? etc etc

    Spec mechanics should not be held hostage to gear. This is precisely why I think the current fire CM design is fundamentally flawed.

    Low crit firemages really just such an abominable gameplay experience.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Or do you mean "The new tier set bonuses fix the spec issues, are you ok with that arrangement?"

    Spec mechanics should not be held hostage to gear. This is precisely why I think the current fire CM design is fundamentally flawed.

    Low crit firemages really just such an abominable gameplay experience.
    They aren't even fixing anything atm.

    Fully agreed. Gear is what makes Fire unplayable to overpowered, and Frost from amazing to underpowered.

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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    I'm trying to understand this question.

    Do you mean "Are you ok with a design where tier set bonuses are used to 'fix' spec/class issues?" (this is probably what you mean)

    Or do you mean "The new tier set bonuses fix the spec issues, are you ok with that arrangement?"

    For me personally, I think both is a "No".

    I do not think tier set bonuses should be used to fix a spec, since, naturally, that tier bonus is transitory. What happens after the set get replaced? What about before? What about the people who can't get it as quick? etc etc

    Spec mechanics should not be held hostage to gear. This is precisely why I think the current fire CM design is fundamentally flawed.

    Low crit firemages really just such an abominable gameplay experience.
    Sorry for it being unclear, I'm typing these out piecemeal between work projects in an attempt to keep up.

    What I meant was: It doesn't (yet) look like the fundamental changes we all desire are coming this patch. However, the tier bonuses seem interesting. Pending work, would they be a suitable way to band-aid the issues until 6.0? Assuming 5.4 is the last major tier. If not, question is irrelevant because you are correct - things that are in flux should not solve core problems long term.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    General
    Innervate now causes the target to gain mana equal to 50% of the casting Druid’s Spirit every second for 10 seconds.
    Wild Mushroom Restoration version of the ability now summons a single mushroom at the friendly target’s location. If the mushroom is recast, the mushroom moves to the new location and retains its accumulated bonus healing. A single mushroom now heals for as much as what 3 mushrooms combined healed for previously.
    Wrath has its mana cost increased by 50%.
    Talents
    Dream of Cenarius has been completely redesigned to reduce complexity and increase usability, but maintain the spirit of the effects. Benefits now varies by specialization.
    Balance: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Casting Healing Touch increases the damage bonus of the Druid's next Eclipse by 10%.
    Feral: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Casting Healing Touch causes the Druid's next Rip to deal 15% increased damage.
    Guardian: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Mangle (Bear) critical strikes have a 20% chance to make the next Healing Touch or Rebirth instant, free, and castable in all forms.
    Restoration: Causes Wrath to deal 20% more damage and heals a nearby friendly target for 100% of the damage done.
    Heart of the Wild when activated, now also provides a 25% bonus to healing for Restoration Druids.
    Mass Entanglement no longer has a limit on the number of targets that could be affected, up from 5.
    Nature's Swiftness is no longer a talent, and is now an ability learned by Restoration Druids at level 30.
    Nature’s Vigil when activated, causes healing spells now trigger an additional heal on a nearby ally for 25% of the amount healed. This is in addition to the existing effect where it damages a nearby enemy target for 25% of the healing done.
    Soul of the Forest has been partially redesigned to make it more attractive to Balance, Guardian, and Restoration Druids.
    Balance: Wrath, Starfire, and Starsurge casts have a 8% chance to cause the next Astral Communion to instantly advance the Druid to the next Eclipse.
    Guardian: Increases Rage generation from Mangle (Bear) by 20% instead of 30%, but the bonus now also applies to Rage generated by Primal Fury.
    Restoration: Now causes the Druid to gain 100% haste (up from 75%) on their next spell after casting Swiftmend.
    Ysera's Gift, a new talent healing the Druid for 5% of their maximum health every 5 seconds. If the Druid is at full health, it will heal the most injured friendly target nearby instead. This talent fills the spot vacated by Nature's Swiftness.
    Glyphs
    New Glyph: Glyph of Efflorescence increases the healing done by Swiftmend by 20%, causes the Efflorescence healing effect to be triggered by Wild Mushroom instead of Swiftmend, and lasts as long as the Wild Mushroom is active.
    Glyph of Innervate now causes Innervate to give both the Druid and the target 60% of the normal effect of the spell if it's cast on a target other than the Druid.
    Balance
    Eclipse now energizes the Druid for 50% of their maximum mana when triggered, up from 35%.
    Moonkin Form no longer reduces all damage taken by 15%.
    Starfire has its mana cost increased by 50%.
    Starsurge has its mana cost increased by 50%.
    Restoration
    Genesis is a new Restoration spell learned at level 88. Genesis targets all party or raid members within 60 yards and accelerates the casting Druid's Rejuvenation effects, causing them to heal and expire at 400% of the normal rate. Costs the same amount of mana to cast as Rejuvenation.
    Swiftmend area-of-effect healing effect is now called Efflorescence.
    Wild Mushroom: Bloom is no longer capable of critical strikes, and accumulates overhealing done by Rejuvenation by 100%, down from 150%. Overhealing bonus no longer benefits from Naturalist or Mastery: Harmony.
    Just saying. That's quite a revamp mid-expansion, and this is only the first build, so expect more changes.

    (HIGHLY suggest reading the official notes on front-page/official site to read easier)



    If they actually did, maybe. Fire's 2P/4P are garbage and don't fix a thing. Arcane's... I'm going to put a pin in Arcane for now. Frost's are... weird, to say the least; the 2P is definitely going to be awkward and even a little bit pointless; the 4P depends how hard it will hit, but neither of these will actually alleviate the issues. Fire still scales too high and Frost still scales too low.

    They tried this with the Legendary Meta and it didn't turn out too well.
    I don't play a druid. But how many of those changes have the effect of changing core parts of the specs? Fire and frost are fundamentally flawed in the way the spells and procs are designed to scale with stats. I dont see how changing numbers like they did in those notes for individual spells is going to solve this problem.

    To the best of my knowledge, the two specs need to be re-worked quite a bit. The notes so-far do not imply that happening for any class, let alone mages.

    This feels like im arguing against you (I think we both know I agree on all the core problems and changes that need to occur), but I guess I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and not let us all get into this "changes have to come, they will come" mentality, only to be let down and frustrated by lack of large / sweeping changes.

    It would be a sad waste of our time if we advocated for something that was never going to happen in the first place instead of at least making sure what beneficial changes we could get, are gotten. (like tier changes helping us along until 6.0)
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-06-13 at 06:01 PM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    It doesn't (yet) look like the fundamental changes we all desire are coming this patch. However, the tier bonuses seem interesting. Pending work, would they be a suitable way to band-aid the issues until 6.0? Assuming 5.4 is the last major tier. If not, question is irrelevant because you are correct - things that are in flux should not solve core problems long term.
    One thing we can be sure of is that 5.4 is going to be a massive patch, across the board. We can expect it to be on the PTR and go through many many updates for a long time to come.

    The tier bonuses are indeed interesting, but I do think it is way to early to start hypothesizing about the changes that will occur for mages. Personally, I am actually looking at the lack of any mage notes as a good thing. I'd rather Blizz took time and thought through what they should do with mages in 5.4 rather than rushing ahead and putting their collective foots in their own mouths.

    I think Blizz is on the same page here. They are cautious about rushing into making changes precisely due to the point you bring up, that being, they need to first figure out what change is actually viable enough to pull of in a major patch vs what should be pushed off to the next expansion.

    I do not think the level 90s will be on the chopping block for 5.4. I do think they will be changed in some way (they are faaar too broken right now).

    But to your point, would set bonuses be a suitable band aid till 6.0?

    The answer is still "No". Again, using gear to fix mechanics issues is just not a good idea. What if I am not a raiding mage? (to be fair, there are probably more non-raiders out there than raiders). Do I have to sit on my hands with a broken class just because I cannot get the gear needed to fix it? No. It does not work.
    And what about if I am indeed a raiding mage? Do I do all my progression raiding in a broken state, only making it through living off the hope that when I have all my gear (and essentially, am farming stuff) that only then will I get to enjoy the class in its 'the way it was meant to be' state? No again.


    Gear and class balance should not be so intimately tied together, as a matter of principle. It just does not work.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    The answer is still "No". Again, using gear to fix mechanics issues is just not a good idea. What if I am not a raiding mage? (to be fair, there are probably more non-raiders out there than raiders). Do I have to sit on my hands with a broken class just because I cannot get the gear needed to fix it? No. It does not work.
    And what about if I am indeed a raiding mage? Do I do all my progression raiding in a broken state, only making it through living off the hope that when I have all my gear (and essentially, am farming stuff) that only then will I get to enjoy the class in its 'the way it was meant to be' state? No again.


    Gear and class balance should not be so intimately tied together, as a matter of principle. It just does not work.
    I wasn't even thinking about non-raiding mages. Tunneled visioned it due to my own circumstances. You are correct, tier is a terrible solution. Position changed.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I don't play a druid. But how many of those changes have the effect of changing core parts of the specs? Fire and frost are fundamentally flawed in the way the spells and procs are designed to scale with stats. I dont see how changing numbers like they did in those notes for individual spells is going to solve this problem.

    To the best of my knowledge, the two specs need to be re-worked quite a bit. The notes so-far do not imply that happening for any class, let alone mages.

    This feels like im arguing against you (I think we both know I agree on all the core problems and changes that need to occur), but I guess I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and not let us all get into this "changes have to come, they will come" mentality, only to be let down and frustrated by lack of large / sweeping changes.

    It would be a sad waste of our time if we advocated for something that was never going to happen in the first place instead of at least making sure what beneficial changes we could get, are gotten. (like tier changes helping us along until 6.0)
    While true about the Mage parts, Resto Druids can now do the whole Atonement thing like Disc Priests, spamming Wrath to heal. I'd say that's quite a gameplay change, on top of all the other shit they just got...

    Like 1 Mushroom that's movable and sprouts Efflorescence instead of Swiftmend.

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  10. #170
    How do you guys feel about how competitive our DPS is right now, and how competitive it will be in 5.4?

    Ignoring mechanics of the specs. I know Resto-druid were getting crushed by the other healing classes, which may be why they are seeing so many changes this early in the patch life-cycle. But are mages really in a bad spot DPS wise? It may be that they are going to focus heavily on the classes that actually need help keeping up, while being content with letting us have arcane / fire to hold us over for awhile since we are at least competitive and we won't have to worry about not getting a raid spot due to underperforming.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    How do you guys feel about how competitive our DPS is right now, and how competitive it will be in 5.4?

    Ignoring mechanics of the specs. I know Resto-druid were getting crushed by the other healing classes, which may be why they are seeing so many changes this early in the patch life-cycle---
    To be fair, they were getting their heals sniped by Disc/Pal due to absorbs/large ST heals. It's not so much that they were bad, but that other healers were too good. In 25m or large-scale AoE, they were among the best though; too good even due to mushrooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    But are mages really in a bad spot DPS wise? It may be that they are going to focus heavily on the classes that actually need help keeping up, while being content with letting us have arcane / fire to hold us over for awhile since we are at least competitive and we won't have to worry about not getting a raid spot due to underperforming.
    Frost won't be good in the next tier due to other classes scaling higher than it; Fire will be nerfed to unplayability just like 5.1, and Arcane... idk.

    Point is, DPS isn't what we need tweaking in, and to tweak a class just because of low numbers is quite a pathetic way to fix things.

    Something to keep in mind: We weren't the top. Top Fire parses were (as they DESERVE to be because it's a purely RNG spec), but besides that, we weren't the top. Even without KJC, Warlocks will remain to be #1. The only reason people think we're amazing is because of stupid SimC. Yes, we're good, yes we're viable, and yes, we're competitive, but we're not the best, nor are we close to it, unless you get some AMAZING luck with Fire or have a pocket healer so you can stand in stuff as Arcane.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-06-13 at 07:17 PM.

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  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Breakee View Post
    But you do realise it's not actually a burst , but a loss on dps ?
    Ib does 40k damage with a 1-1.5 sec gcd
    do you think it's worth it ?
    No it isn't. The 4part needs to be fixed , because it's highly useless.
    Because there was a clear lack of math to back up this assertion, I did some. Also I was bored.

    Let's assume we're a mage with 0 haste, making our GCD 1.5 seconds, and 30k SP (for rough calculations). If the 4 set bonus in question procced without HU, we could do one of two options in a 6 second window:

    Option A- using the 4 set

    Using the set bonus, I would cast 3 no CD IBs, to give me a HS + HU, followed by a Pyro!

    2(677 +(.6 * 30k) + 2(677 +(.6 * 30k) + 2(677 +(.6 * 30k) + 2305+(1.98 * 30k) = 173787 damage

    Option B- Ignoring the 4 set

    Obviously, if we ignore it, we're going to cast 2 Fireballs at 2.25 seconds each, and just for fun, let's assume that both crit, giving us a HS, and thus a pyro! That leaves us with:

    2(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + 2(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + 2305+(1.98 * 30k) = 248697 damage

    Clearly, it looks like Option B is the better route. However, Option B will ONLY do that much damage IF both FBs crit. So, what are the odds of that? Well, assuming we can reach 60% crit on our character sheet by this point, CM bumps up the crit chance to 78% for one FB crit, therefore the odds of 2 in a row are .78 * .78 = 60.84% chance. Not too shabby, but now know that we'll only deal that damage 60.84% of the time, we must calculate the expected value.

    First, let's assume that our first FB crits, but our second doesn't. That means we will cast FB again, but given that we're in a 6 second window, we'll only get 1.5/2.25 of that third FB off. Which will give us:

    2(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + 1(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + (1.5/2.25)(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) = 171409.33 damage

    This situation will occur approximately 17.16% of the time.

    Now let's assumes the reverse is true and the second FB crits. With a second crit, we would cast IB, and not a partial FB.

    1(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + 2(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + 2(677 +(.6 * 30k) = 177598 damage

    This scenario will also occur 17.16% of the time, as it is just as likely for either FB in the sequence to crit. The last scenario, which occurs 4.84% of the time is that of neither FB critting, and thus casting a partial FB

    1(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + 1(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) + (1.5/2.25)(1748 + (1.5 * 30k)) = 124661.33 damage

    Now, when you multiply each outcome with the % of time you expect to see that outcome you get:

    (.6084)(248697) + (.0484)(124661.33) + (.1716)(177598) + (.1716)(171409.33) = 217230 expected damage

    Now, granted, this is a GROSS oversimplification of a combat situation, but it provides a rough guide, and that is that statistically speaking it would be better in this scenario to ignore the 4 set bonus, given that around 80% of the time doing so will out damage using it. Now, again, this is only ONE way the situation could play out, and it's roughly oversimplified, but what we can learn is that the more crit we have, the worse that 4set becomes, as the less likely it is that we won't get a HS on our own.

    It would have been a great set bonus early in the expansion, as it could have made up for a lack of crit, but this late in the game it's completely lack luster.



    Edit: I just realized that if the first FB crit we'd cast IB anyway, so that would actually skew the expected damage UP as it would fit full Pyros into the window, making the gap even wider between the two.
    Last edited by Xorn; 2013-06-13 at 07:27 PM.

  13. #173
    Some notes on tier bonuses:
    Arcane:
    2pc) Name: Profound Magic

    Fire:
    2pc) Name: Potent Flames
    4pc) Name: Fiery Adept

    Frost:
    4pc) Icy Boulder hits for 1093 with 26k spellpower, 2.5 yard AoE


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  14. #174
    One thing to keep in mind regarding Druid changes versus Mage 90 tier for example. Those changes we see for Druid could have been planned back with release of 5.0, that is to say they had a plan and scheduled resources committed, whereas with Mage 90 at 5.0 they felt those were going to be in place thru to 6.0 and as such had no plan or scheduled resources committed. By 5.1 they sure as heck know Mage 90 are fail, but have no resources to assign to rectify that without killing existing planned changes. Not saying that is what happened just that those decisions certainly play out constantly.

    I don't see how Fire goes into 5.4 without an adjustment to CM. Beyond the CM nerf, I don't believe we see anything really change for all mages. Basically I believe they keep us balanced with the other DPS classes/specs and call it a day for 5.x expansion and mages. Why spend precious resources on something you know is not going to exist with release of 6.0?

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Ataxus View Post
    Some notes on tier bonuses:
    Arcane:
    2pc) Name: Profound Magic

    Fire:
    2pc) Name: Potent Flames
    4pc) Name: Fiery Adept

    Frost:
    4pc) Icy Boulder hits for 1093 with 26k spellpower, 2.5 yard AoE
    lol 1093, probably just a random number was put in so that people will test it without it being OP.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    I don't see how Fire goes into 5.4 without an adjustment to CM. Beyond the CM nerf, I don't believe we see anything really change for all mages. Basically I believe they keep us balanced with the other DPS classes/specs and call it a day for 5.x expansion and mages. Why spend precious resources on something you know is not going to exist with release of 6.0?
    I agree with that notion, however I'm not so sure if they've planed a mage overhault for 6.0 like they did for lock. Probably they believe that they can not change too much because of spec diversity and identity.
    As for myself, I believe that arcane is not too bad, at least the idea of mana management is unique to other dps speccs. However, by giving arcane 3 different ways to get mana back (invocation, rune, ward), despite one being by far the best, they ruined the lvl90 talents for all speccs, also they make every content more and more about movement, so arcane feels really rooted in pve and is absolutely useless in pvp.
    Yeah, fire and frost have their inherent gear scaling problems, fire crit scaling always causes multiple nerfs mid-expansion unless they change their design philosophy (dont think they will), so it kind of always sucks unless you get feeded the gear to be overpowered. And frost capping sucks as well, and I dont like the whole design philosophy of instant and proccs all over the place, this is what makes pvp broken. It also sucks that every mage specc has different stat priority, so if you want to change specc for one particular boss you need a complete second gear/get fresh sockets every time. I know there will always be a "best" stat for a specc, but the others should not be completely useless. (look at locks, every specc gets decent with mastery)
    The only thing which is good with mages are the "solo-utility"-things (blazing speed, alter time, greater invis, temporal shild...)

  17. #177
    Just as I thought, the 4pc reflects a desire to give Frost more cleave outside of just Ice Lance. Quite the small radius though. Would have rather seen it balanced for single target, as its AOE iteration will likely continue to be weak.

    From a "cool" factor I like it though. Would like to see the animation. Personally I think a fiery meteor would have been appropriate for Fire, maybe proccing off our Pyro. If they were to take the 4pc a different direction, which I hope they do, they should do that instead.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-06-13 at 09:57 PM.

  18. #178
    I agree with MrExcelion; the proc shouldn't be AoE based if it's going to have such a piss poor radius. Furthermore, we've already got frozen orb for big AoE. Would rather get more single target damage love, since that's usually where frost falls behind. Interested to mess around with invo arcane though.

  19. #179
    IMO, the weak bonus is to compensate for fire's crit scaling. Being okay with Mages not going for 4 piece for a tier, and not adjusting CM while they work on a mage revamp seems like something they would be okay with at this point.

  20. #180
    If they let the weak bonus go live, we'll have to compensate via using 3 bloodsoaked pieces instead of 1, unless they decide to make tier bloodsoaked level this time around. Heard other classes already do that.

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