Thread: 5.4 Changes

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  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazooty View Post
    So are these people calling arms lame/boring just not bothering to learn how to play it correctly? Not saying they'd find it more fun after playing it correctly, but to call something lame and not even bother learning how to do it correctly is asinine...
    By playing correctly, you mean use CS when appropriate and slam? You can take OP off your bar for 5.4 (trolling)

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Wazooty View Post
    So are these people calling arms lame/boring just not bothering to learn how to play it correctly? Not saying they'd find it more fun after playing it correctly, but to call something lame and not even bother learning how to do it correctly is asinine...
    The whole point is there is no depth to it. Regardless if you use OP (outside of CS) due to rage constraints and only slam inside CS or not, it is still simply a more boring version of Fury.

    Fury basics: BT on CD, pool rage, CS, dump rage with RB + HS. Outside CS, dump with WS as appropriate.
    Skill involved: Keeping from overcapping using 30 rage "dumps" managing enough rage to dump 4 HS+4 Globals inside CS (assuming 4 HS and 3 RB you have to dump 150 rage in 6.5 seconds), also managing RB stacks to maximize chance of 3 RB inside CS. Depending on gear; (not very) thoughtful use of Enrage/BzR uptime for CS.

    Arms basics: MS on CD, CS on CD w/out overwriting, spam Slam inside CS, outside of CS, slam or OP depending on Rage gen.
    Skill involved: ??? - Might as well ignore Enrage since its so unreliable, other than to use BzR when you can with CS. Slam has no CD or charge cost, so in high rage situations its spammable. No real point in holding CS since its chance of random proc makes it better to use as often as possible, OP is similar to Wild Strike procs in that instead of exciting proc, its your lowest priority, difference in that OP has a rage cost. OP is only used as a low cost filler or dump. Lastly you don't even get the "exciting" burst of HS/GCD spam during CS like you do with fury, because HS is so wet noodle, its not even worth binding. Oh yeah and the mastery sucks and you don't even notice it

    AoE Fury: Intelligent use of WW -> RB stacks, even pre stacking for quick dying adds. I think the Meat Cleaver mechanic is clunky and not the biggest fan of it, but atleast it takes some thought.
    AoE Arms: Spam Sweeping Strikes (since you cant use it when its up, you might as well hold down auto hotkey), Thunder Clap, normal rotation.

    My tone is sarcastic and I dumbed down a few things for exaggerated effect on both specs, but there seriously is no depth. No thought. Even more, its just not "fun".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't get me wrong, there are a few things about fury that make me QQ as well. There is nothing more frustrating than having a 45% crit chance and seeing your BT inside CS not crit, not having BzR up, enrage falling off and not getting that 3rd RB inside CS. All because of RNG. However, the spec makes you adapt and think ahead.

    Even more, as gear has progressed it has had a noticeable change. Think back to early MSV raiding as Fury, if you weren't there, go do a challenge mode and you'll see what I mean! We have spent the entire expansion getting gear and "powering up" to the point where Fury is fun and not as punishing due to RNG. And then the Arms bomb gets dropped and we can't do anything with it.

    I was really looking forward to hitting that 50% crit rate. Really looking forward to maybe stacking Mastery more. Feeling like, compared to T14 raiding, HELL YEAH I am a monster, always enraged, pumping out more and more damage, beast mode.
    It's simply... saddening.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-08-23 at 12:23 AM.

  3. #723
    I have a feeling that once we start to play Arms more, and we get more high end theorycrafting, the Arms rotation will be far more interesting, and a lot more complex. I'm currently playing around with a few things on PTR on Simcraft, and once I get some solid information, I'll share it. There is more to Arms come next patch than most people are aware of.
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  4. #724
    I'm just saiyan, in the grand scheme of things arms is an "interesting" spec, fury is just even more so. No reason to hate on arms because it aint fury.

    Brb every other class should be nerfed below fury because they aren't as hard to play.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I was really looking forward to hitting that 50% crit rate. Really looking forward to maybe stacking Mastery more. Feeling like, compared to T14 raiding, HELL YEAH I am a monster, always enraged, pumping out more and more damage, beast mode.
    It's simply... saddening.
    Enrage uptime should be around 90% for fury on T15, i would say that's pretty good. I'm not saying that fury doesn't need some buffs, i think both fury and arms need some single target buffs and DW needs to be tweaked down a bit.

    This thing of "OMG I HAVE TO SWITCH TO ARMS, WHY!??!" is just bullshit, arms AOE was pretty good early T14 and T15 (compared to fury) and everyone played fury, fury will still do more single target damage, scale better with gear and do comparable or better burst AOE. I doubt these 16+ targets scenarios where arms justs wrecks everyone will be something we face in a boss fight.

  6. #726
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    Yea when theres 16+ targets its either tank pulling 3 packs of trash, or some 1mil HP bats that die before we even get to do any real Arms AoE on them. Its good they buff Arms, now it just needs something more to it. We could use a double proc, now when we get CS proc, we could also get a use of Execute. So we could use CS and then Execute in it Not really gamechanging but would stir things up a bit from the Slam/OP spam.

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Would rather it have no role because it is, quite simply a shit spec. It has no depth, no skill based value and no engagement to keep you involved raid after raid. We spent the entire expansion getting fury to a point where it is alot less RNG dependent, to where thoughtful and skillful play rewards to user; to being regulated to a shit spec simply because it got buffed out the ass. The ONLY people who have ever played it are the, quite frankly, scrubs. LFR hero, normal mode raider who clear the tier months later and alts.

    It is Dragon Soul all over again. Worse infact. You will be hard pressed to find a single serious raider who is happy about swapping to Arms.

    Will I enjoy the damage that comes out of it, and being competitive again? Assuming it pans out that way you bet! Will I be happy about playing Arms to do it? Not a chance in hell.

    Pretty much this. I played arms on every fight except spine HC in T13. After everything was on farm, BOOM back to fury. I played Arms in T14 until 1.) I got 2 good weapons and 2.) we got crit buff. It was actually fun up until 5.1 or 5.2 or whenever.

    I'll do the same thing next tier. If it's best, I'll play it. And I'll have fun doing max deeps. But not as much fun as if I were playing fury.

  8. #728
    @Archimtiros

    The describing word of Arms you completely missed is Reliability. Everything revolves around the concept of balance, you never peak super high or drop to a substandard level after you've practices enough and can identify situations quickly enough. The spec has a ton of flaws which include itemization and ability costs being scaled to where your MS and CS kind of NEED to crit but the number one problem has stuck since the very beginning, an extremely abysmal benefit from Bloodlust (lacking burst for things like Spine of deathwing tendon).

    It might not have the potential to do some momentary fireworks when the moons align for once, but who in their right mind would want to play such a spec during progression when there is a much more reliable alternative to work with. You talk about how you've only recently started to be able to play Fury in a proper manner, how its meant to be played if you may, but don't you realize how broken a spec is if it only starts working after you hit +40% crit and a massive amount of attack power when 98% of the playerbase is sitting below 25% crit?

    Your description of the flow of Fury is quite accurate, but what you didn't mention was the huge amount of room for failure and the low penality for doing so when Arms is the complete opposite. You gain an overwhelming amount of rage as Fury and you really only need to pay attention to what your rage situation is every 30 seconds when CS comes off cooldown. Obviously min/maxing rage to gain the mentioned 4 heroic strikes in takes practice, but if you screw up and only get 3 off then you've only lost a slight amount of damage since the ability hits like spaghetti.

    Arms only has one free core ability compared to Furys two which is problematic since Arms generates more than twice as little rage. This means that screwing up comes at a very high cost especially since CS keeps refreshing about every 8 seconds and you simply will not have enough rage for that second Slam. Screwing up is unrepairable when Fury can decide that I'll just use one less HS and be fine. The usage of heroic strike is very limited within the spec, but it shouldn't be disregarded because it does indeed have its moments now and again.

    I have no idea how you can call using whirlwind and a whirlwind buffer repeatedly Intelligent. Ever since Cataclysm fury has had to choose to either AOE or single target because you simply cannot afford both, when Arms only needs to sacrifice 30 rage every 10 seconds for sweeping strikes and 20 rage every 15 seconds to spread deep wounds and basically not give up any boss dmg. There are classes with retardedly over-the-top designed AOE abilities like priests, hunters and warlocks which do the AOE'ing 10 times more effectively than you so it raises the question what the point is for you to sacrifice everything on the boss and convert into mediocre aoe. To cheese damage and look cool on meters?

    PS. Mastery is the source of the why CS keeps refreshing so rapidly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Pretty much this. I played arms on every fight except spine HC in T13. After everything was on farm, BOOM back to fury. I played Arms in T14 until 1.) I got 2 good weapons and 2.) we got crit buff. It was actually fun up until 5.1 or 5.2 or whenever.

    I'll do the same thing next tier. If it's best, I'll play it. And I'll have fun doing max deeps. But not as much fun as if I were playing fury.
    I can't recall Arms and Fury being as equal EVER as they were during DS. Both strong and had their benefits for each fight and alot came down to your preference. If anything it should be something to strive for again.
    Last edited by Strafir; 2013-08-23 at 01:53 AM.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post

    I can't recall Arms and Fury being as equal EVER as they were during DS. Both strong and had their benefits for each fight and alot came down to your preference. If anything it should be something to strive for again.
    I recall that a bit different as even with prepull mastery gear cheese you would still crush fury with arms easily on anything but maybe tendon damage.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    I can't recall Arms and Fury being as equal EVER as they were during DS. Both strong and had their benefits for each fight and alot came down to your preference. If anything it should be something to strive for again.
    That's before your raid group had enough dps, once shadow priests+mages could do AOE damage on black phases on Yor'sahj and everyone could dps the big tentacle+Zon'ozz fury become better than arms since the benefit of bladestorm diminished.

    Arms would do good at Hagara if not targeted by the ice block things and in spine if allowed to spreed rend+bladestorm on the adds, in both cases the arms damage would be pretty useless since in the 2nd ice block thing Hagara should be almost death and the damage to adds on spine wasn't meaningfull since the "do or don't" threshold was the damage on the tendon.

    At Ultraxion, prob. the best boss for warrios in DS, both Arms and Fury could do pretty good dps, mostly depending on tentacles+crit RNG and soacking order.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    and you really only need to pay attention to what your rage situation is every 30 seconds when CS comes off cooldown.
    CS has a 20 second CD for Fury. Looked at your armory, and suprise not, LFR hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    I can't recall Arms and Fury being as equal EVER as they were during DS. Both strong and had their benefits for each fight and alot came down to your preference. If anything it should be something to strive for again
    Again you have no clue whatsoever. During DS, Arms was by far the stronger spec. Gurthalak was the primary reason and the proc that scaled so well with arms's mastery. Bladestorm being arms only during DS was also a big factor, due to how many bosses it shined on.

    I'd really encourage you to not post about things you clearly have no knowledge on, as you just make yourself look terribly silly.
    Last edited by Crushima; 2013-08-23 at 02:59 AM.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    @Archimtiros
    I'm going to have to reak this down since you clearly misinterpreted my post.

    The describing word of Arms you completely missed is Reliability. Everything revolves around the concept of balance, you never peak super high or drop to a substandard level after you've practices enough and can identify situations quickly enough. The spec has a ton of flaws which include itemization and ability costs being scaled to where your MS and CS kind of NEED to crit but the number one problem has stuck since the very beginning, an extremely abysmal benefit from Bloodlust (lacking burst for things like Spine of deathwing tendon).
    Agree in theory, but I will say that Fury has picked up a lot of reliability as it has improved, I will expand on what I mean by this below. The lack of benefit from Lust has applied to all specs of fury for some time.

    It might not have the potential to do some momentary fireworks when the moons align for once, but who in their right mind would want to play such a spec during progression when there is a much more reliable alternative to work with. You talk about how you've only recently started to be able to play Fury in a proper manner, how its meant to be played if you may, but don't you realize how broken a spec is if it only starts working after you hit +40% crit and a massive amount of attack power when 98% of the playerbase is sitting below 25% crit?
    Here i think you misinterpreted me, I don't believe I just started to be able to play Fury in a proper manner. I have played Fury since, well, classic Naxx when it got buffed and its itemization wasn't shit. but I digress.
    My point was that throughout the expansion Fury has improved as a spec and you've seen a tangible shift in both reliability and output of the spec that directly correlates to your ability to play it "as intended" (maximizing damage during CS, keeping a high Enrage up time, etc).

    To me that is the key element of any RPG, is to get better, become stronger, and see that shift in the ability to perform as your character improves. I didn't mean that its a terrible thing that we are being pushed towards Arms, I just feel like all that improvement is wasted. Damage tuning aside, Fury has straight up become more fun to play as we have improved due to less dependability of RNG. It is finally in a place where it is very reliable, engaging to play and enjoyable. This is purely a feeling that I have and in no way even matters in the "real world" of doing effective damage on target. It's just how I feel about it. I hope that makes sense, its been a long day!

    Your description of the flow of Fury is quite accurate, but what you didn't mention was the huge amount of room for failure and the low penality for doing so when Arms is the complete opposite. You gain an overwhelming amount of rage as Fury and you really only need to pay attention to what your rage situation is every 30 seconds when CS comes off cooldown. Obviously min/maxing rage to gain the mentioned 4 heroic strikes in takes practice, but if you screw up and only get 3 off then you've only lost a slight amount of damage since the ability hits like spaghetti.
    It's not so much Heroic Strike, but how you save and use RB that amounts to penalty for failure. This again is where I quite enjoy how Fury has evolved as opposed to T14 which, well, sucked in comparison.

    Arms only has one free core ability compared to Furys two which is problematic since Arms generates more than twice as little rage. This means that screwing up comes at a very high cost especially since CS keeps refreshing about every 8 seconds and you simply will not have enough rage for that second Slam. Screwing up is unrepairable when Fury can decide that I'll just use one less HS and be fine. The usage of heroic strike is very limited within the spec, but it shouldn't be disregarded because it does indeed have its moments now and again.
    Not sure what you mean by Free Core, I assume you mean OP vs WS and HS? The difference is OP costs 5 rage vs WS/HS 30. But more than that, Arms only needs to use 75-100 rage (3 or 4 slams@25rage each). Still the new 2p makes this much easier. Also, while Arms generates much less rage, its rotation is also so much more static. Fury is very jumpy, and while you are constantly deciding how and when to dump rage based on your current amount and whats coming next (do I have time to RB and stack a new charge before my next BT/CS? Can I dump 30 rage here, or should I save? Do I even have a free GCD coming?)
    Arms on the other hand, is simply fill each GCD, if you have rage issues, that is where your OP's come in, start using those instead of Slam outside of CS, or even inside, if you mess up your rage usage. The only place this should really be an issue is when you are keeping us SS, but then the cleave damage far outweighs replacing a Slam with an OP.

    I have no idea how you can call using whirlwind and a whirlwind buffer repeatedly Intelligent. Ever since Cataclysm fury has had to choose to either AOE or single target because you simply cannot afford both, when Arms only needs to sacrifice 30 rage every 10 seconds for sweeping strikes and 20 rage every 15 seconds to spread deep wounds and basically not give up any boss dmg. There are classes with retardedly over-the-top designed AOE abilities like priests, hunters and warlocks which do the AOE'ing 10 times more effectively than you so it raises the question what the point is for you to sacrifice everything on the boss and convert into mediocre aoe. To cheese damage and look cool on meters?
    Its not about how much rage you have to use, or how effective the AoE is in comparison to other classes; my comparison was the engagement of Fury AoE vs Arms. Arms AoE is very passive, keep up SS, thunderclap as needed and continue single target rotation, depending on amount of targets.
    For Fury you need to make conscious decisions whether it is better to A: Whirlwind on target for AoE damage and RB at the req amount of charges. Or B) Pre-stack Meat Cleaver charges to put more effective damage on adds when they appear. Examples:
    A) H Durumu Ice Walls: they appear, you put damage on target with WW and RB as you get enough charges.
    B) Lei Shen Ball Lightning: I challenge you to Whirlwind those three times and then RB. At most I get 2-3 GCDs before they die. I will do more damage by WW twice on Lei Shen, WW once on Balls when they appear, and then using a 3 stack RB.
    Never said I liked it, or that it was even fun, but it takes a whole lot more thought process than "push SS and TC buttons when they are lit".

    PS. Mastery is the source of the why CS keeps refreshing so rapidly.
    Point, I still think it is a crap mastery but I suppose that's another issue entirely.


    I can't recall Arms and Fury being as equal EVER as they were during DS. Both strong and had their benefits for each fight and alot came down to your preference. If anything it should be something to strive for again.
    I think that is the whole point of my post(s) in the first place. As c45 pointed out above, Arms still crushed Fury on most of those fights. You are right, they were closer to equal than ever before and the sole reason is because just like now, Arms was buffed out the ass to make it better.

    This really comes down to simply how I feel about things. Arms is not an engaging or fun spec for PVE. Give it some design overhauls, make it actually enjoyable to play and I'd be a little happier.

    Completely off topic; If I was making decisions, I would make Arms the go-to PVP spec, Fury the PVE spec. Its simpler on design, simpler on development and easier on players by removing constant decision and theorycraft, along with in raid regemming/reforging. To be fair, I think that applies to all classes, not just Warriors. But since we are talking about Warriors. All damage equal, Arms will always be stronger than Fury in PVP. You never hear people crying about Fury being viable in PVP, you never hear Rogues crying about Sub being used in PVE, why all the disgruntlement about Arms being used in PVE?
    Likewise, for the people who say "but Rogues have 3 specs". Pure DPS specs get 1 PVE spec, 1 PVP spec, 1 "support spec" (think BM hunters getting extra buffs).

    Hybrids get just that, ability to fulfill multiple roles and different playstyles. Warriors would have Fury - PVE, Arms - PVP, Tank - both.
    This obviously would take a ton of work, and reorganization of gameplay, such as removal of many class wide abilities; raid cooldowns would be a "support spec" spell. It's simply an idea I like to bounce around in my head.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-08-23 at 03:09 AM. Reason: I type way too much =/

  13. #733
    I've stuck to arms since wrath, and I can agree that the spec has gotten bland in MoP, I liked how arms worked in cata but I liked it better in wrath. I still love arms though but yea I can say that fury has a more engaging rotation. Its funny how it switched around, in wrath arms was harder to play then fury! and fury awarded more DPS for a extremely bland rotation. Fury needs to be better then arms because arms works better in pvp, if arms is stronger in pve then fury doesnt really have a place anywhere.

    Thats why arms single target did not get buffed too much in pve, they are scared that it will make arms too strong in pvp, hence they gave arms the AoE niche now.

  14. #734
    Agreed. Arms whining has caused much fury woes and leads to two half baked specs.

    Arms for pvp. Fury for PVE. Blizzard has successfully splitted the community and their tweaks to arms is their excuse towards leaving fury untouched. As a class, we are still gonna be way behind rogues by a mile
    Last edited by senturion; 2013-08-23 at 03:23 AM.

  15. #735
    Well, I think its ok if warriors pve as arms, I personally like pveing as arms more because I like just having 1 2 hander, plus when i started pveing with it in wrath it was WAY more fun then fury at the time (as i said in my previous post, its changed), but ive just stuck to arms.

    When titans grip came out I lost a lot of love for fury, sure there is smf which I do like playing occasionally, just titans grip made it too silly for my liking, but I can see why people think it looks badass.

  16. #736
    Pretty sure Arms has never ever been a complicated spec to play, especially in regards to Fury. At the most, in BC, you had to watch a swing timer.

  17. #737
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Pretty sure Arms has never ever been a complicated spec to play, especially in regards to Fury. At the most, in BC, you had to watch a swing timer.
    It wasn't super complicated in 5.0 but it was slightly less clunky and more fun, and also had a bit more measure of skill in TfB stack usage. On live/PTR it's just incredibly counter-intuitive and boring. (C'mon, OP being useless 90% of the time?)

    How to fix? Get rid of OP rage cost. (Fuck PvP anyway stop screwing with PVE.) Nerf slam/buff MS. Nerf DW. Buff WW. Make WW interact with OP somehow, perhaps similar to meat cleaver. Or make OP increase damage of your next WW. Otherwise the AoE is just SS/Slam/TC.

    Give it SOME benefit to skilled play. Some significant benefit. Not just lawlTC, SS/Slam and /afk.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    I have a feeling that once we start to play Arms more, and we get more high end theorycrafting, the Arms rotation will be far more interesting, and a lot more complex. I'm currently playing around with a few things on PTR on Simcraft, and once I get some solid information, I'll share it. There is more to Arms come next patch than most people are aware of.
    Nope. I've been putting in the code for warrior changes the last few days, and there is literally no way to make it more complex without losing dps once 2 piece is attained.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    It wasn't super complicated in 5.0 but it was slightly less clunky and more fun, and also had a bit more measure of skill in TfB stack usage. On live/PTR it's just incredibly counter-intuitive and boring. (C'mon, OP being useless 90% of the time?)

    How to fix? Get rid of OP rage cost. (Fuck PvP anyway stop screwing with PVE.) Nerf slam/buff MS. Nerf DW. Buff WW. Make WW interact with OP somehow, perhaps similar to meat cleaver. Or make OP increase damage of your next WW. Otherwise the AoE is just SS/Slam/TC.

    Give it SOME benefit to skilled play. Some significant benefit. Not just lawlTC, SS/Slam and /afk.
    Its funny how you say fuck pvp anyway when your projected changes are pretty much exactly what we need for pvp lol. In pvp OP cost needs to be removed for many reasons, and MS needs a buff as well. Warriors have always been about high sustained damage and MS on a target with good uptime, like they should be, but now they are pushing it to afk while pooling rage and dump it all with slam during a CS. TfB needs to be changed; OP should have no usage requirements since it is already a filler to begin with, and TfB needs to have some meaningful aspect about it. Im not very creative right now but maybe every MS generates 1 TfB which does either: Makes slam apply a dot dealing 30% of the dmg of 5 seconds, or causes your next ww to deal 50% more damage and cost 5 less rage, stacking 2 times. Shit make something interesting, in pvp its the annoying rage management of D stance most of the time and OP rage cost and in pve its boring.

  20. #740
    I'm not sure what the warrior dev is thinking but they wanted slam to be used inside CS and that took them 4 patches to work out and now they made the spec so it just spams slam all day, apparently it's even better then whirlwind in aoe situations which is just weird. I thought the 1sec gcd OP had some interesting gameplay getting the max amount of abilities in CS and reck/bb, had hopes they would improve it in 5.4 but at least the damage is higher.
    Maybe a proc for HS would be interesting so that it would actually be worth saving some rage with OP use but I'm afraid it will go live as it is with maybe a slight aoe nerf.
    Last edited by bigbad; 2013-08-23 at 07:17 AM.

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