Thread: 5.4 Changes

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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Pretty sure Arms has never ever been a complicated spec to play, especially in regards to Fury. At the most, in BC, you had to watch a swing timer.
    In wrath arms was alot more fun, it wasnt necessarily complicated but it was sure as hell better then fury in wrath:

    BT > WW > bloodsurge (if procced) and in ICC fury was getting so much rage you just macro'd heroic strike into everything.

    arms back in wrath was managing rend and prioritising sudden death (execute) > mortal strike > overpower > slam,
    obviously this doesnt sound complicated but it was a neat priority system with procs to watch and managing a debuff, ALOT better then what arms is currently, i still enjoy it however.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    CS has a 20 second CD for Fury. Looked at your armory, and suprise not, LFR hero.

    Again you have no clue whatsoever. During DS, Arms was by far the stronger spec. Gurthalak was the primary reason and the proc that scaled so well with arms's mastery. Bladestorm being arms only during DS was also a big factor, due to how many bosses it shined on.

    I'd really encourage you to not post about things you clearly have no knowledge on, as you just make yourself look terribly silly.
    Look, it was like 4 in the morning when I got to writing and I doubt that was the only typo I made. If you feel like its enough reason to blow it completely out of proportion then go ahead, but the attitude that you think that someone who isn't decked out can't share an opinion is foolish. Instead of nitpicking on tiny thing like that, how about you actually join the conversation so we can figure out what the appropriate measure to take would be so even I could get back to playing heroic modes.

    Obviously one spec would be the overall superior one but my point was that both were very strong and had their benefits for each fight. I remember some really dedicated fury players switching back to fury after the initial pressure of a boss was gone and actually did extremely well on Ultraxion, Hagara, Ship and Spine, but the spec had a similar problem to what Arms has today which is that the amount of parses favored the other tenfold and therefore alot of people didn't even bother to try. Very few people had appropriate weapons to even play fury (deathwing agi/elemental weapons).

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I think that is the whole point of my post(s) in the first place. As c45 pointed out above, Arms still crushed Fury on most of those fights. You are right, they were closer to equal than ever before and the sole reason is because just like now, Arms was buffed out the ass to make it better.

    This really comes down to simply how I feel about things. Arms is not an engaging or fun spec for PVE. Give it some design overhauls, make it actually enjoyable to play and I'd be a little happier.

    Completely off topic; If I was making decisions, I would make Arms the go-to PVP spec, Fury the PVE spec. Its simpler on design, simpler on development and easier on players by removing constant decision and theorycraft, along with in raid regemming/reforging. To be fair, I think that applies to all classes, not just Warriors. But since we are talking about Warriors. All damage equal, Arms will always be stronger than Fury in PVP. You never hear people crying about Fury being viable in PVP, you never hear Rogues crying about Sub being used in PVE, why all the disgruntlement about Arms being used in PVE?
    Likewise, for the people who say "but Rogues have 3 specs". Pure DPS specs get 1 PVE spec, 1 PVP spec, 1 "support spec" (think BM hunters getting extra buffs).

    Hybrids get just that, ability to fulfill multiple roles and different playstyles. Warriors would have Fury - PVE, Arms - PVP, Tank - both.
    This obviously would take a ton of work, and reorganization of gameplay, such as removal of many class wide abilities; raid cooldowns would be a "support spec" spell. It's simply an idea I like to bounce around in my head.
    I'm pretty confident in saying that devs intentionally wanted alot of people to play Arms over Fury because of the extreme amount of complaints that kept coming all throughout the expansion. Like you said, alot of things have become much more comfortable and reliable with the MOP changes, but missing three times in a row with whites during Cata meant that you couldn't even perform Bloodthirst which was so incredibly frustrating and kept happening each fight.

    I guess it comes down to preference of playstyle, and we just happen to disagree which is fine. It needs to be mentioned that I completely agree that in its current state Arms has nothing on Fury when it comes to how finely polished the end result is which is partially why I don't believe all the ability buffs in the world won't help the spec become better because the base structure is dysfunctional at best.

    Fury already generates a ton of rage from auto attacks and flurry but the low cooldown bloodthirst with an extremely high crit chance both fuel enrages and the extra 10 rage which very much compensates for high cost abilities, and this same concept has been applied to Arms too, but the spec just can't generate that amount of rage. Using OP does indeed lower the cooldown of MS, but the damage is far far lower than where it should be for such excess usage of OP. Even then you would still generate half the rage Fury does with the ability. To put it simply, I can't fcking afford to use my abilities. I've seen tons and tons of people who use OP religiously (which the spec kind of suggests) and I in much inferior gear end up doing about 30% more damage.

    I couldn't agree more with the whole 'make all specs viable' thing you took up. In a perfect world it would be great to be able to play anything and do as well as anyone else but realistically it just isn't doable in a competitive multiplayer game. I don't think its too big of a stretch to imagine a Fury spec that only used one 2-handed weapon and raging blow just converted into something more appropriate for those who really craved that style.
    Last edited by Strafir; 2013-08-23 at 11:39 AM.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by senturion View Post
    Agreed. Arms whining has caused much fury woes and leads to two half baked specs.
    I feel like this is keeping a very narrow view. In what was is arms actively holding back fury at this point? Much of the skill overlap functions differently for both specs. Also, using "logic" like this, warlock whining from back in classic to today has lead to two half baked warrior specs.

    I'm pretty sure they're not using arms as an excuse to ignore fury - if they are, that's really just reason to abandon the class. "Oh both the specs for this class are underperforming.. lets buff the worse one to just below the better one and call it a day!" I am unsure if it is worse to believe this is happening or for it to actually happen.

    Also, arms used to be quite intricate to play. Back in TBC and the greater part of Wrath you had to do a lot to maximize your dps when slam was one of the primary rage dumps and still reset your swing timer. The gameplay was pretty interesting. I wouldn't want that back... it was a huge pain in the ass, but it was still interesting. I just want them to give us an arms spec where we have to pay attention again and make quick informed decisions as we go. And because I want these things, or other people want these things, doesn't mean that we want fury to be bad... Just for arms to be competitive and fun in pve.

  4. #744
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisnamesucks View Post
    Its funny how you say fuck pvp anyway when your projected changes are pretty much exactly what we need for pvp lol. In pvp OP cost needs to be removed for many reasons, and MS needs a buff as well. Warriors have always been about high sustained damage and MS on a target with good uptime, like they should be, but now they are pushing it to afk while pooling rage and dump it all with slam during a CS. TfB needs to be changed; OP should have no usage requirements since it is already a filler to begin with, and TfB needs to have some meaningful aspect about it. Im not very creative right now but maybe every MS generates 1 TfB which does either: Makes slam apply a dot dealing 30% of the dmg of 5 seconds, or causes your next ww to deal 50% more damage and cost 5 less rage, stacking 2 times. Shit make something interesting, in pvp its the annoying rage management of D stance most of the time and OP rage cost and in pve its boring.
    I don't mean ignore PVP as much as separate PVP and PVE 100% so PVP changes stop screwing PVE and vis versa.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    Obviously one spec would be the overall superior one but my point was that both were very strong and had their benefits for each fight. I remember some really dedicated fury players switching back to fury after the initial pressure of a boss was gone and actually did extremely well on Ultraxion, Hagara, Ship and Spine, but the spec had a similar problem to what Arms has today which is that the amount of parses favored the other tenfold and therefore alot of people didn't even bother to try. Very few people had appropriate weapons to even play fury (deathwing agi/elemental weapons).
    After the important boss progression was done, I swapped back to Fury asap, even if it put lower numbers. I hated playing Arms. It was just painful for me.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    I don't mean ignore PVP as much as separate PVP and PVE 100% so PVP changes stop screwing PVE and vis versa.
    Oh I know, but the thing blizz doesn't seem to understand is that arms in pve and pvp needs pretty much the exact same thing: More damage and a better rotation (OP dmg or rage cost changed being a big issue). No one can complain about the pvp or pve aspect if they up arms damage since its needed in both.

  7. #747
    Pandaren Monk Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vojka View Post
    In wrath arms was alot more fun, it wasnt necessarily complicated but it was sure as hell better then fury in wrath:

    BT > WW > bloodsurge (if procced) and in ICC fury was getting so much rage you just macro'd heroic strike into everything.

    arms back in wrath was managing rend and prioritising sudden death (execute) > mortal strike > overpower > slam,
    obviously this doesnt sound complicated but it was a neat priority system with procs to watch and managing a debuff, ALOT better then what arms is currently, i still enjoy it however.
    Arms still didn't touch Fury in Wrath. Alot of people quite enjoyed ICC Fury because it was a very spammy/spastic spec and we did very good damage. I still think it was one of the best times to play a DPS Warrior. It didn't take a whole lot of thought sure, but it was pretty fun seeing all those yellow numbers everywhere!
    Fury had a bit of complexity early on when you stance danced for Rend, but not many people bothered to do it. Also, I still love the double Slam proc set bonus from ICC. I wish more set bonuses worked like that, and I still regard it as a model set bonus. Not only did it boost damage, it changed the way we played a bit, which I think is both fun and engaging.

    I still think its funny when you look at the interaction between reasoning of changes for different classes:
    They removed WW from Fury single target rotation because "your rotation should change from single target and aoe, you shouldn't press the same buttons for both".
    And yet they left Howling Blast as large part of Frost DK's single target (a very large part for DW).

    They changed Blade Flurry for Combat Rogues and effectively killed the spec because of "passive cleave leading to insanely high damage isn't fun/engaging/fair" especially when it dumbs down the rotation to 3 buttons. Combat was simply always better on a 2 target fight.
    And yet, that is essentially what Arms is doing. Even if you fuck up your rotation, Sweeping Strikes damage will put you miles ahead.

  8. #748
    One of the long running themes of blizzard is that certain restrictions only apply to warriors.

  9. #749
    always was arms fun and always will be i left my warrior after 4.3 were arms was really nasty spec to play because fury was more viable after in mop and i hate fury ...now with this this changes i think i ll return back to warrior and arms <3 <3

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Arms still didn't touch Fury in Wrath. Alot of people quite enjoyed ICC Fury because it was a very spammy/spastic spec and we did very good damage. I still think it was one of the best times to play a DPS Warrior. It didn't take a whole lot of thought sure, but it was pretty fun seeing all those yellow numbers everywhere!
    Fury had a bit of complexity early on when you stance danced for Rend, but not many people bothered to do it. Also, I still love the double Slam proc set bonus from ICC. I wish more set bonuses worked like that, and I still regard it as a model set bonus. Not only did it boost damage, it changed the way we played a bit, which I think is both fun and engaging.

    I still think its funny when you look at the interaction between reasoning of changes for different classes:
    They removed WW from Fury single target rotation because "your rotation should change from single target and aoe, you shouldn't press the same buttons for both".
    And yet they left Howling Blast as large part of Frost DK's single target (a very large part for DW).

    They changed Blade Flurry for Combat Rogues and effectively killed the spec because of "passive cleave leading to insanely high damage isn't fun/engaging/fair" especially when it dumbs down the rotation to 3 buttons. Combat was simply always better on a 2 target fight.
    And yet, that is essentially what Arms is doing. Even if you fuck up your rotation, Sweeping Strikes damage will put you miles ahead.
    Of course fury was way ahead, for the most part fury has ALWAYS been ahead of arms in the pve scene. I just didn't like it in wrath because it felt like you were doing so little but you were doing so much. But yea, I do admit that when you saw those meaty whirlwind crits on everything in ICC it was awesome.

  11. #751
    Was curious what the theorycrafters/people would think about this idea. If we made Cleave into a passive that procced off melee white attacks, doing something like 5-20% of our white swing damage to 2 (3-4 with glyph) targets around us. I'd feel it would be a decent dps increase on elongated aoe phases while not being bursty.

  12. #752
    Pandaren Monk Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Was curious what the theorycrafters/people would think about this idea. If we made Cleave into a passive that procced off melee white attacks, doing something like 5-20% of our white swing damage to 2 (3-4 with glyph) targets around us. I'd feel it would be a decent dps increase on elongated aoe phases while not being bursty.
    From a DPS increase perspective, its not a bad idea, but traditionally people (and blizzard) like things they have control over. This would give us passive "pad" cleave (such as howling blast chaining from one head on Maegera to another for no reason) and pad DPS boosting our damage above others even though it isn't effective damage on target (such as Protectors of the Endless).
    Yes you can do this anyways with WW and Raging Blow cleave, but it is a conscious decision and has a resource/opportunity cost.

    Not saying I would dislike seeing it, just giving reasons why I doubt we ever would. I agree Cleave is useless and needs to be changed. Its way too expensive to be used in conjunction with Whirlwind; but I don't see its resource cost being changed without affecting HS. I rather think boosting Cleave to 3-All targets and lowering the cost of Whirlwind to compensate and make them both usable would be a smart route.

  13. #753
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    Anywhere a Table of the PTR for Simcraft DPS on "singletarget" Boss - Patchwork style to See which place we are now?

    Its hardly clear that all Warri DPS specs have to buffed to get even to other Specs.

  14. #754
    Currently simcraft only has tier 16 profiles for:

    All warrior dps specs.
    Ret Paladins
    Shadow priests
    Enhance shamans
    All hunter specs.

    So it wouldn't be a very complete picture. I could take T15 profiles and scale them up to 570 ilevel, but it won't be as accurate.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Currently simcraft only has tier 16 profiles for:

    All warrior dps specs.
    Ret Paladins
    Shadow priests
    Enhance shamans
    All hunter specs.

    So it wouldn't be a very complete picture. I could take T15 profiles and scale them up to 570 ilevel, but it won't be as accurate.
    Can you give a link if possible?

  16. #756
    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...iles%2FTier16H

    Warrior_Fury_2h_T16H : 378376 dps -- Upgardes 2/2, no reforges

    Warrior_Fury_1h_T16H : 371088 dps -- Upgrades 2/2, no reforges

    Warrior_Arms_T16H : 329352 dps -- Upgrades 2/2, no reforges, WAI?

    EDIT:

    These are not the correct ones, latest simcraft has the correct ones implented see: https://code.google.com/p/simulation...downloads/list for correct simcraft version.
    Last edited by Yiris; 2013-08-29 at 03:12 PM.

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by renecito View Post
    Can you give a link if possible?
    Come on ... http://www.giyf.com/simulationcraft

    Please be aware that the t16 sample profiles for warriors have 2/2 upgrades enabled while several others still don't if you want to draw quick conclusions.

    edit: i'm so slow nowadays Current simC version still crashes on hectic add cleave fights for me, which is far more interesting than a patchwerk variant due to SoO fights nature.

    But do me a favor and just toy around with enemy numbers and the ptr version, ie t15h fury vs arms for 2 targets, 3, 4, 8 etc (it gets more hilarious the more enemies you add!) and now think about the t16 2p and possible advantages of that for both speccs: currently you simply can't slam away and keep sweeping strikes up but with 50%+ colossus uptime and "endless" rage it's a whole different story. Ah well and don't forget to add TC glyph and specc into bladestorm!
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-29 at 03:49 PM.

  18. #758
    Did anyone do some testing regarding feather nerf (10s with 1stack every second, instead 20s with 1stack every 2 seconds), i.e. if it's still better than twins/primordius trinket and if it is still viable to alter the rotation?

  19. #759
    Stood in the Fire Exhil's Avatar
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    Seeing discussions about arms warriors being bad, I thought that the spec couldn't be that bad, so I tried it out and another warrior in my raid team did as well. I got drafted to tank the adds on Jikun HC as our regular add tank wasn't there, so I was prot, he stayed arms.He died about halfway through the fight on a nest and couldn't get ressed (for whatever reason) - finished the fight on about 57k dps.

    He still got a rank with 57k dps.

    Now don't get me wrong, Arms is in a bad place, but I can pull equal if not better DPS as arms rather than playing Fury. I'd say I'm about a 7 or 8/10 as Fury, and a Solid 9/10 as Arms in terms of skill level/rotation perfection. Literally the only thing I feel I can't do is get the hang of correct BR usage. Is that really enough to screw Fury's DPS to a point where Arms Warriors can outDPS them in the same gear?

  20. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduryondon View Post
    Did anyone do some testing regarding feather nerf (10s with 1stack every second, instead 20s with 1stack every 2 seconds), i.e. if it's still better than twins/primordius trinket and if it is still viable to alter the rotation?
    Doesn't change much really, only makes it better. At 10 seconds you'll get your 6 seconds of CSmash+ leftover time for DR. Rotation shouldn't change at all; just won't have to wait as long to start your CDs and burn.

    Still a dps increase to pop DR at the end, as close to/on 10 stacks.

    Edit: and primo trinket is garb, havent tested it with the RPPM change but I doubt it makes a difference, it's so unreliable, even for haste stacking classes (DKs), that you hardly ever see 5 stacks. That hurts Warriors who rely on xD alignment to maximize damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahr View Post
    Seeing discussions about arms warriors being bad, I thought that the spec couldn't be that bad, so I tried it out and another warrior in my raid team did as well. I got drafted to tank the adds on Jikun HC as our regular add tank wasn't there, so I was prot, he stayed arms.He died about halfway through the fight on a nest and couldn't get ressed (for whatever reason) - finished the fight on about 57k dps.

    He still got a rank with 57k dps.

    Now don't get me wrong, Arms is in a bad place, but I can pull equal if not better DPS as arms rather than playing Fury. I'd say I'm about a 7 or 8/10 as Fury, and a Solid 9/10 as Arms in terms of skill level/rotation perfection. Literally the only thing I feel I can't do is get the hang of correct BR usage. Is that really enough to screw Fury's DPS to a point where Arms Warriors can outDPS them in the same gear?
    Few things:
    1) Jikun is a terrible fight to look at parses on, especially depending on what platforms your doing. I've never even gotten a nutrient buff due to the way we do that fight.
    2) Jikun is however, a cleave fight if you are on the nests alot, and thus Arms does get some extra benefit, though not nearly enough to outweigh what you should do as Fury.
    3) Guess I don't understand your statement, saying you do 57k as Fury on Jikun? What do you normally do as Fury, that you compete with/beat as Arms? I would have to take a look at your gear and logs but:
    4) If you are doing more dmg as Arms than Fury you are not playing anywhere near 7/10 as Fury. More like 4/10 or less.
    9/10 Arms is a joke. Should call it 2/3 because that's how low the skillcap is. It's like a 4 button rotation that requires little to no thought and it's even simpler next tier, hence why so much hate on it.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-08-29 at 04:03 PM. Reason: On phone, grammar and spelling is hard :(

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