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  1. #41
    Well, haste (which increases RPPM effects such as the legendary meta) and mastery aren't all that much worse than crit, particularly with crit stacked as high as yours. At 28% crit and 15% haste, I'm already at a point where getting the next Shadowfiend breakpoint from haste is more valuable than an equivalent amount of crit. But let's assume crit is 30% ahead of the worst secondary (a generous assumption; they all get closer together as crit rises). To cover a gap of 4.6% damage, nevermind the healing, you need to gain around 15.3% crit or 9.2k rating by wearing off-tier pieces instead in order to break even with the loss of the set bonus. That looks like a "no way in hell" sort of number. Then recall that you can reforge undesirable stats on the tier. So that would leave it only 21% ahead of the worst secondary, needing a whopping 13k rating to break even. That's more than your total crit. From only 4 item slots. That's not happening. Ignoring tier will be a mistake if the bonuses go live as-is. Even more so for non-atonement priests who gain even more benefit from the set bonuses.
    Haste, mastery and spirit are much, much worse than crit when it comes to dps. You can clearly see it when you look at the damage done by mindbender (which you would choose over shadowfiend, of course). I don't really trust your math, so here are my own calculations:

    2p:

    Assuming a 45% crit chance (which should be easy to achieve next tier), with the set bonus this would become 55% crit chance during archangel. Assuming you usually hit for 100k non crit your dps would be 155k (versus 145k).

    155 * 18 = 2790. 145 * 12 = 1740. 2790 + 1740 = 4530k over 30 secs.
    145 * 30 = 4350.
    4530 - 4350 = a 180k damage gain every 30 seconds.

    But, you would have to lose your evangelism stacks. Since your crit chance is at 55%, 155 * 0.04 = 6.2k. 6.2 * 15 = a 93k dps loss.
    180 - 93 = still 87k damage.

    (87 / 4350) * 100 = a 2% increase in dps.

    But, with eva dropping you will have to pay more for your atonement spells.

    Assuming a penace - holy fire - smite - smite - smite - penance - smite - smite - smite - smite rotation, you would use 7 smites, 2 penances and 1 holy fire each sequence.

    (7 * 8100) + (2 * 11160) + 5400 = 84.420. 84420 / 10 = 8442.
    8442 * 0.94 = 7935. 8442 - 7935 = 507 mana for each stack of evangelism.
    507 * 15 = 7605 mana or 15210 mana each min.

    So, you would gain 2% dps at the cost of 15210 mana each min. I'm not sure how much spirit you would need to counter this loss, but on a 10 min fight, you would need an extra 152k mana! To get a 100% dps increase (if that were possible) you would need an extra 750k mana every minute, that's how ridiculous it is!

    4p:

    10% haste at a 25% uptime would be 2.5% haste on average. That's like having 1k extra haste. Not very impressive imo. It's defo not gonna give you 2% extra dps (or 4% extra healing for that matter).

    Getting the tier pieces will get you loads of mastery you defo do not want. There's only crit on the chest. Even if you reforge some mastery or spirit to crit you would still lose close to 2k crit. If Blizz is gonna give us thunderforged gear again, I'm very sure it will not be worth it at all.
    Last edited by Saeba; 2013-06-13 at 06:15 PM.

  2. #42
    On the PTR most Priests are just popping SS then spamming PW:S. Even in current content (on farm) our Priests have totally abandoned using PoH/SS and are just spamming PW:S on the raid in between usage of Atonement.

  3. #43
    The 4p on both specs is not what is stated on the tooltip on the gear itself.

    For Holy you get 15% per stack instead of 50% which the tooltip on the gear says. In addition your hw:s updates dynamically with this buff, for example if you cast a hw:s with 10 stacks it will be boosted by 150% but each stack you accumulate while your hw:s is active it increases the effectiveness of the spell further while it's still active until it expires.
    Here's the buff you get: http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145336-absolution

    For disc the buff is different as well. You get 15% haste and 3500 mastery while your spirit shell buff is active instead of 10% which is stated on the tooltip on the gear.
    Here's the buff you get: http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145374-resolute-spirit
    Isheria - Method - Twisting Nether

  4. #44
    You got them the mixed up, but yes you're correct Isheria. However I don't think either of those bonuses are going live as is - the Disc one especially. All Discs will do is spam PW:S with the extra haste/mastery buff.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    So, you would gain 2% dps at the cost of 15210 mana each min. I'm not sure how much spirit you would need to counter this loss, but on a 10 min fight, you would need an extra 152k mana! To get a 100% dps increase (if that were possible) you would need an extra 750k mana every minute, that's how ridiculous it is!
    All the while you're completely ignoring the +25% healing modifier you get from Archangel. Nobody pops Archangel expecting it to be a DPS increase (or mana-positive for that matter), so the fact that you even bothered to do this math with that precise purpose in mind is hilarious. It's like complaining that Hymn of Hope isn't a survivability increase.

  6. #46
    All the while you're completely ignoring the +25% healing modifier you get from Archangel. Nobody pops Archangel expecting it to be a DPS increase (or mana-positive for that matter), so the fact that you even bothered to do this math with that precise purpose in mind is hilarious. It's like complaining that Hymn of Hope isn't a survivability increase.
    Ehhh...I only spam atonement so the new tier set is completely worthless again. To be fair, I already thought it would be rather ridiculous to use archangel for atonement spam, but someone else thought it would be worth it. Guess what, it's not.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    Ehhh...I only spam atonement so the new tier set is completely worthless again. To be fair, I already thought it would be rather ridiculous to use archangel for atonement spam, but someone else thought it would be worth it. Guess what, it's not.
    No point in discussing it then. Your preconceptions are affecting your conclusions.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/I...30_1Trever.gif

    Edit: Also -- http://www.healadinne.com/HealNotes/...ing.html#tl-dr

    "Bottom line is: Archangel is worth using even if all you do is Atonement Spamming."
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-06-14 at 12:10 AM.

  8. #48
    No point in discussing it then. Your preconceptions are affecting your conclusions.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/I...30_1Trever.gif

    Edit: Also -- http://www.healadinne.com/HealNotes/...ing.html#tl-dr

    "Bottom line is: Archangel is worth using even if all you do is Atonement Spamming."
    I really don't see why this would be true. Evangelism increases damage and healing by 20% and reduces the mana cost by 30%. Archangel only offers a 25% increase in healing. It does nothing for your dps and will cost you a lot of mana. You will have to use it every 30 seconds, while evangelism would last the entire fight.

    I doubt you actually spam atonement if you're saying you use evangelism on cd.
    Last edited by Saeba; 2013-06-14 at 12:39 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    I really don't see why this would be true. Evangelism increases damage and healing by 20% and reduces the mana cost by 30%. Archangel only offers a 25% increase in healing. It does nothing for your dps and will cost you a lot of mana. You will have to use it every 30 seconds, while evangelism would last the entire fight.

    I doubt you actually spam atonement if you're saying you use evangelism on cd.
    You can have Archangel and Evangelism up at the same time.

  10. #50
    You can have Archangel and Evangelism up at the same time.
    So? It's still a loss of dps and mana. Even if you gain a bit of healing, it's totally not worth it. I don't care about my healing at all. Wasn't I clear enough about that?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    So? It's still a loss of dps and mana. Even if you gain a bit of healing, it's totally not worth it. I don't care about my healing at all. Wasn't I clear enough about that?
    If you don't care about your healing at all, why are you playing Disc instead of Shadow? Something tells me you do care about your healing and you're just in denial about it. Before you argue that not using Archangel during Atonement allows you to reforge for less spirit and Atonement longer, realize that the primary limiter on whether or not you can Atonement is whether or not you can keep your raid alive with Atonement. The healing bonus from Archangel gives you far more leeway in this regard than the tiny amount of spirit you could drop by not using Archangel would -- you're not going to increase your healing per second by 11.2% just by dropping 2-4K spirit.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-06-14 at 12:46 AM.

  12. #52
    If you don't care about your healing at all, why are you playing Disc instead of Shadow? Something tells me you do care about your healing and you're just in denial about it.
    Even with the increase in healing (I doubt it's 11.2% like the website you linked says), most of it would likely be overhealing anyway. And getting 2 regen trinkets to counter the heavy burden on the mana part will probably reduce my output (healing yes) by a much greater amount.

    Dps of course would be lower as well. Even though I play disc, I usually watch the 'damage done' on skada. I happen to like the whole hybrid idea.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    Even with the increase in healing (I doubt it's 11.2% like the website you linked says), most of it would likely be overhealing anyway. And getting 2 regen trinkets to counter the heavy burden on the mana part will probably reduce my output (healing yes) by a much greater amount.

    Dps of course would be lower as well. Even though I play disc, I usually watch the 'damage done' on skada. I happen to like the whole hybrid idea.
    If you're using Atonement and a 11.2% increase would be "mostly overhealing" you have too many healers or massively overgear the fight, period.

    PS: I use Archangel during Atonement and only use 1 mana regen trinket. I also run 9-11K spirit depending on the fight.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-06-14 at 12:58 AM.

  14. #54
    If you're using Atonement and a 11.2% increase would be "mostly overhealing" you have too many healers for the fight, period.
    No, fast, small hits that have a high crit chance (considering the low overhealing by DA) are much better than big, slow heals with a lot of overhealing. That's one of the reasons I dislike mastery so much.

    PS: I use 2 dps trinkets (1 crit, 1 haste) and have 7.5k spirit (and that's usually too much already...well, then I just skip the hymn of hope).
    Last edited by Saeba; 2013-06-14 at 01:07 AM.

  15. #55
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    Just an FYI, the Holy 4pc doesn't appear to be functioning correctly, at least for Holy Word: Sanctuary.

    The gear itself says it's a 50% bonus stacking 10 times. The tooltip of the actual buff you get says 15%. However, the actual healing you get doesn't appear to be either 500% or 150%. It's sitting at ~250% consistently, meaning the 4pc is granting 25% each stack instead of 50%.

    Additionally, for some reason Sanctuary isn't always carrying the bonus to the end of the spell duration. When you cast the Holy Word spell, the stacking buff is consumed. But on a few occasions Sanctuary started dropping the amount healed after about 3 ticks, despite the fact that there were no buffs or trinket procs up during the cast/after the cast. I don't know if this is a bug due to the server instability or what.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    No, fast, small hits that have a high crit chance (considering the low overhealing by DA) are much better than big, slow heals with a lot of overhealing. That's one of the reasons I dislike mastery so much.
    You're treating secondary stats like they're in some sort of weird vacuum where they don't interact with eachother.

    It's pretty obvious you've done zero theorycraft in this regard and are just going with a gut feeling trying to force the numbers to agree with your desired result, so I'll just leave you be.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-06-14 at 01:18 AM.

  17. #57
    You're treating secondary stats like they're in some sort of weird vacuum where they don't interact with eachother.

    It's pretty obvious you've done zero theorycraft in this regard and are just going with a gut feeling trying to force the numbers to agree with your desired result, so I'll just leave you be.
    Mastery does nothing for my dps or for mindbender's dps. As I think my dps contribution is more important than my healing, I don't think it's strange at all to completely ignore mastery (it's value is reduced by more than half after all). I do have a bit of haste, but that's only because I already have the max amount of crit and I really don't need more spirit.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    Mastery does nothing for my dps or for mindbender's dps. As I think my dps contribution is more important than my healing, I don't think it's strange at all to completely ignore mastery (it's value is reduced by more than half after all). I do have a bit of haste, but that's only because I already have the max amount of crit and I really don't need more spirit.
    As I said before, I don't understand why you're not just playing a DPS spec if you value your DPS more than your healing. Competent DPS can sustain triple the damage a Disc Priest can do with comparable gear, if not more.

  19. #59
    As I said before, I don't understand why you're not just playing a DPS spec if you value your DPS more than your healing. Competent DPS can sustain triple the damage a Disc Priest can do with comparable gear, if not more.
    If you value both dps and hps, atonement disc provides more than any other spec in the game. Like tonight I did 93k dps on Twins normal (could have been more if I was a bit more aggressive). Our best dps did 167k and he almost ranked. He didn't even do double my dps and I was topping the healing meter too. I usually do 8-10% of raid damage. Imo that's more than enough to justify a specific stat prio and rotation.
    Last edited by Saeba; 2013-06-14 at 02:05 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeba View Post
    If you value both dps and hps, atonement disc provides more than any other spec in the game. Like tonight I did 93k dps on Twins normal (could have been more if I was a bit more aggressive). Our best dps did 167k and he almost ranked. He didn't even do double my dps and I was topping the healing meter too. I usually do 8-10% of raid damage. Imo that's more than enough to justify a specific stat prio and rotation.
    As I suspected, you're just doing normal modes and outgearing the content. Our top DPS on heroic Twins did 273K on our last kill I think.

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