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  1. #61
    Hard to believe they are singling out Feral for a huge nerf while Warlocks, Rogues and Mages continue to go untouched. 14k is a lot but of course that is theoretical and BIS. If they wanted to test something a more reasonable person would test 20% and leave the charges alone. The NS nerf is already a DoC nerf anyway.

  2. #62
    This is the type of shit that makes you wonder if continuing playing is even worth it.
    Nerfing a fun, challenging and balanced talent and then making it easy, underwhelming and boring for no freaking reason.
    Its not like they completely revamped the talent, its the exact same shit as before with just some changes for other specs.
    It also makes me wonder, was it their intention to nerf feral? a mid-pack spec, something that should be the goal for the devs to achieve with every spec.
    Or where they not even thinking and just used a random number "15%" like the 15% rip buff they reverted right before 5.2 with no warning?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Hard to believe they are singling out Feral for a huge nerf while Warlocks, Rogues and Mages continue to go untouched. 14k is a lot but of course that is theoretical and BIS. If they wanted to test something a more reasonable person would test 20% and leave the charges alone. The NS nerf is already a DoC nerf anyway.
    Warlocks are definitely not untouched in 5.4. They're getting extensive and substantive nerfs.

    However, it's clear that Druids' run of good luck has run out. Tank/Feral Innervates are now going to be completely useless since they are tied to the caster's Spirit, and Glyph of Innervate got a nerf. All our nukes' mana cost has doubled. Moonkin form no longer has damage reduction. Healing shrooms were nerfed, though it takes fewer GCD's to use them now. DoC was nerfed for Ferals. And Force of Nature is still hopeless for Guardians.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Hard to believe they are singling out Feral for a huge nerf while Warlocks, Rogues and Mages continue to go untouched. 14k is a lot but of course that is theoretical and BIS. If they wanted to test something a more reasonable person would test 20% and leave the charges alone. The NS nerf is already a DoC nerf anyway.
    It's ptr and if enough people point it out it won't go live, and for the record warlocks particularly destruction have been nerfed arguably harder than this with the KJC nerf and more importantly Mannoroth fury nerf which is required both to generate embers for destro and provides a large source of aoe dmg as opposed to thrash/swipe spam.

    Just as important though is the fact that Blizzard are trashing an ability that is arguably more challenging to use which in turn if utilised appropriately rewards players. From a class design standpoint these are imo win abilities, if it requires more 'skill' the player is rewarded. I rerolled feral purely because of it's slightly more complex distinct rotation and enjoy the old DoC mechanic.
    Last edited by spaceape; 2013-06-12 at 07:30 PM.

  5. #65
    They chose to make DoC different for all specs, as the way it was working for feral did not translate well to the other specs. Then they destroy the feral DoC playstyle as well. Wat?

    I don't think this is final as that would be very sad and dumb. I liked in tier 14 where I could change talents pretty much at will. Then in tier 15 I can change between two talents. Next tier there will only be one? ;(

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by spaceape View Post
    It's ptr and if enough people point it out it won't go live.
    You remember that whole rootshifting thing right?

    If they have it in their mind to do something they will do it regardless of feedback. Not saying that this change is the case, but when they brag about making something better, they tend to be less likely to change it:


    •Dream of Cenarius has been completely redesigned to reduce complexity and increase usability, but maintain the spirit of the effects. Benefits now varies by specialization
    We need to make sure to not focus on the fact that its a huge nerf, and focus on the fact that functionally of the talent has been removed. They can tweek numbers after the fact. However in this suggested mechanic will be either underpowered in PVE, or overpowered in PVP. If this goes live they paint themselves in a corner.
    Last edited by Tinderhoof; 2013-06-12 at 08:01 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I would rather have 100% healing from say starfire and wrath and get 10% damage for an eclipse when I use healing touch...
    Passive 100% Vampiric Embrace is OP.
    Last edited by yurano; 2013-06-12 at 08:00 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinderhoof View Post
    We need to make sure to not focus on the fact that its a huge nerf, and focus on the fact that functionally of the talent has been removed. They can tweek numbers after the fact. However in this suggested mechanic will be either underpowered in PVE, or overpowered in PVP. If this goes live they paint themselves in a corner.
    They are taking 10% off our most damaging ability and 25% off our 2nd most damaging ability. Not to mention the random charges that are used on Thrash/Mangle/Shred.

    Hitting HT on PS is pretty easy. It was more about timing it and pooling energy correctly to make sure you could hit HT when having 4 cp for every other finisher and every trinket proc. I'm not certain I understand what was so complex about it and it was very usable. I've saved myself so many times being able to save a PS to use right after predictable damage.

    *The more I think about it, the more it makes me angry.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    Lolwut?

    A DPS nerf to get similar or less healing than we're already getting from NV?

    Consider it a replacement NS, except in the lvl90 tier instead of lvl30.
    You're right about the DPS nerf but it'll be nice to have another on-demand (for all practical purposes) heal that doesn't cut into Rage or have a cd. Mostly just thinking for fights like Lich King where a terrible Infest can completely screw you if you don't have anymore cooldowns to pop. Any fight that is more of a DPS race (Ultraxion + Madness) though I agree that DoC will be the weakest choice and I'll probably go with NV since HotW doesn't seem to be getting anything else other than increased healing while active.

    Edit: it's mostly going to come down to how long the free HT/Rebirth proc stays active and whether or not it can stack. If short duration and only one stack then yeah, NV all the way.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2013-06-12 at 08:53 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    You're right about the DPS nerf but it'll be nice to have another on-demand (for all practical purposes) heal that doesn't cut into Rage or have a cd. Mostly just thinking for fights like Lich King where a terrible Infest can completely screw you if you don't have anymore cooldowns to pop. Any fight that is more of a DPS race (Ultraxion + Madness) though I agree that DoC will be the weakest choice and I'll probably go with NV since HotW doesn't seem to be getting anything else other than increased healing while active.
    On-Demand with no CD=once every 20s or so assuming 100% crit...? It'll show up more often during CDs when we have 0 use for it yeah, but that's not that helpful, and with FR being significantly stronger than it at everything it could do, it has practically 0 use.

    (Also, the only challenging part of LK is the DPS check, so that's not a good example, not to mention the silences going out whenever raging spirits are active which should be quite frequently).

    It will probably change, but it's not a good bear talent atm. Better than it WAS, yes, but its only use right now is to replace the removed NS for tanks who need to provide brez in raids. In terms of healing, the other two talents are superior.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    (Also, the only challenging part of LK is the DPS check, so that's not a good example, not to mention the silences going out whenever raging spirits are active which should be quite frequently)
    Ah, good point. Keep forgetting about the silence as Guardian since it doesn't prevent the use of FR.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    You're right about the DPS nerf but it'll be nice to have another on-demand (for all practical purposes) heal that doesn't cut into Rage or have a cd. Mostly just thinking for fights like Lich King where a terrible Infest can completely screw you if you don't have anymore cooldowns to pop. Any fight that is more of a DPS race (Ultraxion + Madness) though I agree that DoC will be the weakest choice and I'll probably go with NV since HotW doesn't seem to be getting anything else other than increased healing while active.

    Edit: it's mostly going to come down to how long the free HT/Rebirth proc stays active and whether or not it can stack. If short duration and only one stack then yeah, NV all the way.
    Currently it's 8 second duration and doesn't stack.

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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Currently it's 8 second duration and doesn't stack.
    Ewwww, going to edit my post on page 1 then.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Currently it's 8 second duration and doesn't stack.
    I think that might actually be worse than the way it is now.

  15. #75
    I made a post on the PTR forums about why I feel the new DoC mechanic is bad. I didn't focus on damage because that can be changed. Please post here and add your feelings. Please don't complain about a damage nerf there, it won't help. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9280218700#1

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 09:48 PM ----------

    Post is back up

    A few things I need to cover before going into the feed back. Everyone (even the design team) already knows this change is a big nerf. Numbers can be changed after the fact. The mechanics are harder to change and that is what we need to be giving feedback on. Please keep this constructive, and do not include percentages at this time. We can do that later.

    Lets get to the feedback. From the PTR notes released last night:

    •Dream of Cenarius has been completely redesigned to reduce complexity and increase usability, but maintain the spirit of the effects. Benefits now varies by specialization.
    •Feral: Increases the amount healed by Healing Touch by 20%. Casting Healing Touch causes the Druid's next Rip to deal 15% increased damage.

    The biggest issue with this new version of the talent is that it becomes for all purposes passive. Hitting HT any time with in 22 seconds is not really compelling.

    Prior to this change DoC allows us the choice to buff every attack we have. This gave us the flexibility to choose to use it for Tab Raking, Thrash for AOE, FB during high energy times, or just Rake/Rip on a single target.

    The new DoC gives a mostly passive damage buff to our second hardest hitting ability that we use for single target damage. It actually hurts us for AOE, or rapid target swaps (ie adds that have to die in under 8 seconds) as we get 0 benefit from the talent.

    We are further hurt when we hit Blood in the Water (sub 25% health). As we are keeping our bleed up with FB and not reapplying it we see 0 benefit from the talent for the last 25% of our target.

    Most of us in the community took to heart the trade of skillful execution of an active talent vs a passive talent with a raid cooldown. Both worked, and we actually made the choice on a fight by fight basis. Just a few days ago Zarhym said this about active vs passive talents:

    Generally speaking, we prefer active talents to be slightly superior to passive talents in the same tier. No one will choose an active talent if it requires more work for the same reward

    As DoC is right now (ignoring damage) there isn't a compelling reason to take it over HotW. Passive stats + raid cooldown vs Passive buff to 20% of my total damage is a no brainer. We won't take the ability if it doesn't give us something for our effort.

    TLDR:
    New DoC is not useful for:
    •AOE•Sub 25%•Fast target swapsHotW is a clear choice as there is no reason to choose a lower performing passive over a passive with a raid cooldown.
    Last edited by Tinderhoof; 2013-06-12 at 10:43 PM.

  16. #76
    Seems to be an Eu version up already to anyone who wanted to write out there

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7646755027#1

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinderhoof View Post
    I made a post on the PTR forums about why I feel the new DoC mechanic is bad. I didn't focus on damage because that can be changed. Please post here and add your feelings. Please don't complain about a damage nerf there, it won't help.
    I've added my opinion to your post, Tinder. I'm kind of shocked that they're even remotely considering this change, but hopefully if enough of us provide solid feedback, they'll reconsider.

    In that Feral Roundtable, all of you sounded like you've never had more fun playing Feral (and I agree) - there are so many mechanics now that make it awesome. I feel like if you guys would have had that talk this week, there would have been a lot of sadness and rage =/.

  18. #78
    I'm sure they will rethink the nerf to the Dream of Cenarius talent.
    Considering not only did it place a huge hit on our single target but, it also hit our AoE by making it unable to apply to Thrash.
    Basing around we are a middle pack dps, they will surely re-think their actions.
    If not well.. it's time to play HoTW because NV just sucks..
    They wont make us only have 1 viable level 90 talent choice surely..

  19. #79
    I honestly don't think they will alter their new version of DoC to much. It was *to* good in its current form. The lvl 90 talents are all supposed to be very close in terms of output- DoC didn't fit that bill it was a good because it *could* do it all in terms of what it could buff.

    Much like NV's change from 5.1 I see this as a PVP change, a good many ferals have been taking DoC to buff their free 30 second ravage which caused balancing issues.

    I think an acceptable balance between the two versions would be 15-20% buff to Thrash, Rip and Rake. With NS being resto only the challenge will still be there of doing the rotation and a reward for the harder rotation.

  20. #80
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    Considering Blizzard stated they don't want some specs to only have one go-to talent, they seem to be going back on their word here. I understand DoC was pretty much useless for every spec except Feral, leaving some specs with only one choice, but with these changes ferals will only have one go-to lvl 90 talent. I know that numbers can be tweaked, but even if they manage to make the new DoC equal in dps to HotW, nobody is going to take it over a passive, which is something Blizzard wants to get away from. I'm hoping the feedback will be enough for Blizz to realize the mistake in changing DoC in the way they have.

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