[Resto] 5.4 - "Let's go HAM mode" !

[Whydrood]

I don't see why you think they would try to nerf "overhealing" of a spell. If anything they would change it if it was doing significant overhealing when used properly. They nerfed the effective healing it is going to be doing when everyone is stacked up. On a fight like Ra-den where the raid was below 70% hp for all of p2 and you popped shrooms that did 1.7m healing it would do 68k per person (in a 25 man raid) whereas in 5.4 they will do around 1.1m at 44k per person. This is about a 46% nerf to the effective healing potential on a fully stacked 25 man raid. (granted we can stack our shrooms a LOT faster in 5.4 compared to now)

Just go look at the top 10 RDruids ranks on Ra-Den. Every one of them have between 50 and 70% overhealing from shrooms. Even your guilds resto druid managed to pull 64% overhealing from shrooms on that fight. For your druid, the average hit from WM was only 5k, average crit was 11k. Far from your 68k per person, and still quite a ways away from your 44k per person post "significant nerf". The point is, even used properly they are overhealing for a metric ton. Meaning the effective healing they are doing is way below what the devs intended, which may account for this nerf.

[vow1152]

Just go look at the top 10 RDruids ranks on Ra-Den. Every one of them have between 50 and 70% overhealing from shrooms. Even your guilds resto druid managed to pull 64% overhealing from shrooms on that fight. For your druid, the average hit from WM was only 5k, average crit was 11k. Far from your 68k per person, and still quite a ways away from your 44k per person post "significant nerf". The point is, even used properly they are overhealing for a metric ton. Meaning the effective healing they are doing is way below what the devs intended, which may account for this nerf.

worldoflogs. com/reports/rt-fmmkz4r2yvv3lu24/details/0/?s=5949&e=6107 - my logs from ra-den this past week where mushrooms overhealing in p2 (the only time they are effective to use) is only 37%. IMO they need to prevent mushrooms from healing pets with this new 1 shroom change to prevent the massive overhealing and increase the average it hits each person for.

[Whydrood]

worldoflogs. com/reports/rt-fmmkz4r2yvv3lu24/details/0/?s=5949&e=6107 - my logs from ra-den this past week where mushrooms overhealing in p2 (the only time they are effective to use) is only 37%. IMO they need to prevent mushrooms from healing pets with this new 1 shroom change to prevent the massive overhealing and increase the average it hits each person for.

This is the report I looked at as well, WM's overheals are still at 40% when it is effective to use. But compare it to Tranq during this time period. Tranq heals effectively for a ton more (in fact its your 2nd highest heal), and its overheal was only 10%. Efflo did double the amount of healing, and its overheal was only 10%. Rejuv - our main overhealer, did 7 times the amount of healing, and did 10% less overhealing.

Granted this is going to be a bigger nerf to 25 man healing then it is to 10 man healing (because the heal is spread further in 25 than 10). Maybe the way they can help balance the 2 is by doing what they did with Tranquility. Give resto druids in 25 mans the ability to place 2 mushrooms, or make the 1 heal for 150% of the healing the 10 man version does. I am more in favor of the 2 shrooms for 25m. I haven't raided 25's since ICC but I do remember stack points in 25's tended to be separated on fights like Festergut where you had 3 stack points, 2 ranged groups and a melee group whereas in 10 man you had 2 stack points, usually melee and ranged.

[insanedruid]

Just go look at the top 10 RDruids ranks on Ra-Den. Every one of them have between 50 and 70% overhealing from shrooms. Even your guilds resto druid managed to pull 64% overhealing from shrooms on that fight. For your druid, the average hit from WM was only 5k, average crit was 11k. Far from your 68k per person, and still quite a ways away from your 44k per person post "significant nerf". The point is, even used properly they are overhealing for a metric ton. Meaning the effective healing they are doing is way below what the devs intended, which may account for this nerf.

How would this nerf help the overhealing?
In encounters that the raid spreads out the overhealing is a lot as the shrooms ain't hitting a lot of players.
But with 5.4 only one shroom is left the problem will be worse.
And when the raid is stacked up the overhealing comes from healing 100% HP pets.

[Sprucelee]

Honestly Whydrood, your argument makes very little sense. You seem to not really understand the dynamics of WM, the depressed averages and higher overheal is due to its complete lack of any smart heal, and zero restrictions on pets. All spells of this nature have similar numbers, take holy radiance or daybreak as an example, no one will accuse them of being OP currently, and it often has much worse over-healing than WM. The amount these spells heal for, including WM, has little to do with their over-healing. It has to do with them healing anything within their range indiscriminately.

Regarding Druids, first off, you are comparing some of our strongest smart heals (efflo and tranq) to our least "smart" heal. Even rejuv is selectively used, and will ultimately always be "smarter". To expect WM to ever have less over-healing, or even be close to the first two, just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how those spells are used. Also, I am one of those on that Ra-Den list you looked at, and I find it hilarious you even used that fight as "evidence", you obviously have no idea about the fight mechanics, and how brutal stacking is on overheal numbers for WM and that specific fight. Secondly, nerfing a spell will never increase its raw effective healing, which was your original premise. It could only potentially reduce it, period. Third, Blizzard adjusting it with the intention of reducing over-healing is just silly, I have never seen that as a goal from their development team.

[Whydrood]

Honestly Whydrood, your argument makes very little sense. You seem to not really understand the dynamics of WM, the depressed averages and higher overheal is due to its complete lack of any smart heal, and zero restrictions on pets. All spells of this nature have similar numbers, take holy radiance or daybreak as an example, no one will accuse them of being OP currently, and it often has much worse over-healing than WM. The amount these spells heal for, including WM, has little to do with their over-healing. It has to do with them healing anything within their range indiscriminately.

Regarding Druids, first off, you are comparing some of our strongest smart heals (efflo and tranq) to our least "smart" heal. Even rejuv is selectively used, and will ultimately always be "smarter". To expect WM to ever have less over-healing, or even be close to the first two, just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how those spells are used. Also, I am one of those on that Ra-Den list you looked at, and I find it hilarious you even used that fight as "evidence", you obviously have no idea about the fight mechanics, and how brutal stacking is on overheal numbers for WM and that specific fight. Secondly, nerfing a spell will never increase its raw effective healing, which was your original premise. It could only potentially reduce it, period. Third, Blizzard adjusting it with the intention of reducing over-healing is just silly, I have never seen that as a goal from their development team.

Ok, I am starting to get a "stalker wants to pick a fight" kind of vibe from you. First - I didn't bring up Ra-Den. Vow brought up Ra-Den in this post as an example of WM being used as it was intended and its overheals not being as high as other fights because during phase 2 people are constantly below 70% HP. I just used this example to point out that his logs show his overhealing with WM was still between 50-70% for that fight.

As far as holy radiance and daybreak - when those spells are used, they also put a bubble on the target, making them worth casting because they essentially double dip *edit* - Forgot to mention, both of these spells (Holy Radiance and Holy Shock) are also targetable unlike the current form of WM, and actually give you resources back in the form of holy power - *edit*. WM when it heals, thats all it does, heal. There is no other benefit from using WM except maybe to refresh your harmony buff. Even Prayer of Healing (another non-smart heal that heals anything in the group indiscriminately) adds Echo of Light or Divine Aegis. The reason I compared WM to tranq or rejuvenation is because there really isn't anything else to compare it too. There are no other heals like it. The only thing close is Lights Hammer - and that has the same issue of overheals. What sets Lights Hammer apart from WM is the fact that Lights Hammer now benefits from the paladins mastery (Illuminated Healing) - so again, double dipping.

As far as my "argument" - I have no argument. My "argument" is merely an assumption as to the reasoning behind the nerf to WM's healing. The reason I made this assumption was the fact that every time I personally have used Wild Mushroom, the majority of the heals (while impressive to see the large green numbers flying around) were way stronger then they needed to be. Hell I had one crit the other day for almost 1.5 million (you can see these numbers here). On the same bloom I saw a ton of 400-900k hits. No one in my raid has even half that (1.5 million) without cooldowns. Yeah its nice to see a ton of large numbers, but when the majority of it goes to waste, what is the point? I understand you raid 25 man and I raid 10, so the numbers I see are quite a bit different than what you see. However this does not invalidate my point that a weaker heal means less overhealing. Instead of a 1.5 million crit, I will see a 500k hit, and I am fine with that (most of the people in my raid have about 500k). But as I said in my last reply, I understand that 25 man is different than 10 man, so I am all for giving 25 man resto druids stronger versions of the mushrooms as the heal is spread a lot further in a 25 man instance, inherently making the heal weaker on fights where the raid is clumped together (300k/25 < 300k/10)

Just to give you an example you can relate too, this is the breakdown on how your mushrooms healed in your most recent Ra-Den kill, I will let you work out the numbers on how effective WM was in this instance (my rough estimation, a little less then half of your WM detonations were actually useful):
440 Pet hits
511 Player hits
288 of those 511 hits were overheals
of which 272 did no healing at all.
Only 16 of the overheals did any healing at all.

[insanedruid]

Ok, I am starting to get a "stalker wants to pick a fight" kind of vibe from you. First - I didn't bring up Ra-Den. Vow brought up Ra-Den in this post as an example of WM being used as it was intended and its overheals not being as high as other fights because during phase 2 people are constantly below 70% HP. I just used this example to point out that his logs show his overhealing with WM was still between 50-70% for that fight.

As far as holy radiance and daybreak - when those spells are used, they also put a bubble on the target, making them worth casting because they essentially double dip *edit* - Forgot to mention, both of these spells (Holy Radiance and Holy Shock) are also targetable unlike the current form of WM, and actually give you resources back in the form of holy power - *edit*. WM when it heals, thats all it does, heal. There is no other benefit from using WM except maybe to refresh your harmony buff. Even Prayer of Healing (another non-smart heal that heals anything in the group indiscriminately) adds Echo of Light or Divine Aegis. The reason I compared WM to tranq or rejuvenation is because there really isn't anything else to compare it too. There are no other heals like it. The only thing close is Lights Hammer - and that has the same issue of overheals. What sets Lights Hammer apart from WM is the fact that Lights Hammer now benefits from the paladins mastery (Illuminated Healing) - so again, double dipping.

As far as my "argument" - I have no argument. My "argument" is merely an assumption as to the reasoning behind the nerf to WM's healing. The reason I made this assumption was the fact that every time I personally have used Wild Mushroom, the majority of the heals (while impressive to see the large green numbers flying around) were way stronger then they needed to be. Hell I had one crit the other day for almost 1.5 million (you can see these numbers here). On the same bloom I saw a ton of 400-900k hits. No one in my raid has even half that (1.5 million) without cooldowns. Yeah its nice to see a ton of large numbers, but when the majority of it goes to waste, what is the point? I understand you raid 25 man and I raid 10, so the numbers I see are quite a bit different than what you see. However this does not invalidate my point that a weaker heal means less overhealing. Instead of a 1.5 million crit, I will see a 500k hit, and I am fine with that (most of the people in my raid have about 500k). But as I said in my last reply, I understand that 25 man is different than 10 man, so I am all for giving 25 man resto druids stronger versions of the mushrooms as the heal is spread a lot further in a 25 man instance, inherently making the heal weaker on fights where the raid is clumped together (300k/25 < 300k/10)

Just to give you an example you can relate too, this is the breakdown on how your mushrooms healed in your most recent Ra-Den kill, I will let you work out the numbers on how effective WM was in this instance (my rough estimation, a little less then half of your WM detonations were actually useful):
440 Pet hits
511 Player hits
288 of those 511 hits were overheals
of which 272 did no healing at all.
Only 16 of the overheals did any healing at all.

It depends on the boss. If the raid spreads out then yes, shrooms are mostly overkill.
But do you know that they also changed so that we can only have one shroom at a time.
So shroom will change to a tool that is mostly useful when the raid stacks up.
When the raid stacks up in 25m, 3M isn't really an overkill 3M/25 = 120K

In Encounters like Megaera, where the raid stacks up, heal to pets, ie wasted heal, is a lot.
I just took a look at one of my log on Megaera, 40% of the raw output of my shrooms went to healing pets.

And for your point, everyone knows that weaker heals = less overheal. But what you said was that they want to reduce overheal so they nerf shroom output.

They can nerf shroom because it's too powerful. They can nerf shroom because they give us other tools to compensate.
But nerf shroom because it overheals too much? That doesn't make sense at all.

[Lyra]

Am I reading this correctly in that Ysera's Gift doesn't seem to have any kind of CD and is just a passive ticking 5% on yourself/injured the whole time? Or can it be assumed that the CD will be added later?

Also it seems as though the Innervate spirit change is a positive thing for late-tiers? I'm under the impression that it will scale better now (while perhaps being a little weaker in the beginning of expansions).

[Checksmix]

Are people really only considering DoC?? We are healers not DPS. The reason attonment is good for disc is arch angel... and because it doesn't cost much mana. If you read they are increase the cost of wraith. If you didn't notice Nature's Vigil is now AMAZING for healing as the heals proc MORE healing. And HoT also increases healing by a stupid amount...

Where are all the druids that actually raid and not do stupid 10 mans.

And btw the innervate changes are a buff to anyone over 12k spirit (basically anyone over 500 ilvl) and it was done to make it so ferals and boomkins don't give their innervates to healers.

Also to those people bickering about mushroom healing. It's going to be a lot of over healing, always. But if you are good enough with them you will be able to do insane throughput with them as their ability to burst heal is rediculous. Fully charged they can heal and entire raid to almost full. With the 4pc they are able to charge during low to no raid damage in 3-4 rejs very fast. It will do a lot of over healing, it will be wasted a lot of the time, but a lot of the time you can save a raid with them (like during tantrum).

But if you look at the patch notes mushrooms no longer can crit, no longer scale with naturalist, and no longer benefit from mastery. Currently i have 39% mastery. So that's about a flat 40% nurf to their healing, and with 20% crit or so it is also a pretty good sized nurf there too.

Infracted. Please do not start 10 vs 25man fighting.

[insanedruid]

Are people really only considering DoC?? We are healers not DPS. The reason attonment is good for disc is arch angel... and because it doesn't cost much mana. If you read they are increase the cost of wraith. If you didn't notice Nature's Vigil is now AMAZING for healing as the heals proc MORE healing. And HoT also increases healing by a stupid amount...

Where are all the druids that actually raid and not do stupid 10 mans.

And btw the innervate changes are a buff to anyone over 12k spirit (basically anyone over 500 ilvl) and it was done to make it so ferals and boomkins don't give their innervates to healers.

Also to those people bickering about mushroom healing. It's going to be a lot of over healing, always. But if you are good enough with them you will be able to do insane throughput with them as their ability to burst heal is rediculous. Fully charged they can heal and entire raid to almost full. With the 4pc they are able to charge during low to no raid damage in 3-4 rejs very fast. It will do a lot of over healing, it will be wasted a lot of the time, but a lot of the time you can save a raid with them (like during tantrum).

But if you look at the patch notes mushrooms no longer can crit, no longer scale with naturalist, and no longer benefit from mastery. Currently i have 39% mastery. So that's about a flat 40% nurf to their healing, and with 20% crit or so it is also a pretty good sized nurf there too.

I think i'll still use HotW as default. I don't like DoC a lot because wrath is too slow. It Can't compare to disc priest's smite as their top dps spell is penance. This means that disc priest will still be the best in dps healing. That said I can see the use of DoC for low damage phase.
As for NV I think i will try it out in raid before I know if I like it.


Last night I raid 25man ToT and tried to think about how the shroom/genesis change will change how I handle the damage. I think I will be missing the three shrooms...

[Sprucelee]

Ok, I am starting to get a "stalker wants to pick a fight" kind of vibe from you. First - I didn't bring up Ra-Den. Vow brought up Ra-Den in this post as an example of WM being used as it was intended and its overheals not being as high as other fights because during phase 2 people are constantly below 70% HP. I just used this example to point out that his logs show his overhealing with WM was still between 50-70% for that fight.

As far as holy radiance and daybreak - when those spells are used, they also put a bubble on the target, making them worth casting because they essentially double dip *edit* - Forgot to mention, both of these spells (Holy Radiance and Holy Shock) are also targetable unlike the current form of WM, and actually give you resources back in the form of holy power - *edit*. WM when it heals, thats all it does, heal. There is no other benefit from using WM except maybe to refresh your harmony buff. Even Prayer of Healing (another non-smart heal that heals anything in the group indiscriminately) adds Echo of Light or Divine Aegis. The reason I compared WM to tranq or rejuvenation is because there really isn't anything else to compare it too. There are no other heals like it. The only thing close is Lights Hammer - and that has the same issue of overheals. What sets Lights Hammer apart from WM is the fact that Lights Hammer now benefits from the paladins mastery (Illuminated Healing) - so again, double dipping.

As far as my "argument" - I have no argument. My "argument" is merely an assumption as to the reasoning behind the nerf to WM's healing. The reason I made this assumption was the fact that every time I personally have used Wild Mushroom, the majority of the heals (while impressive to see the large green numbers flying around) were way stronger then they needed to be. Hell I had one crit the other day for almost 1.5 million (you can see these numbers here). On the same bloom I saw a ton of 400-900k hits. No one in my raid has even half that (1.5 million) without cooldowns. Yeah its nice to see a ton of large numbers, but when the majority of it goes to waste, what is the point? I understand you raid 25 man and I raid 10, so the numbers I see are quite a bit different than what you see. However this does not invalidate my point that a weaker heal means less overhealing. Instead of a 1.5 million crit, I will see a 500k hit, and I am fine with that (most of the people in my raid have about 500k). But as I said in my last reply, I understand that 25 man is different than 10 man, so I am all for giving 25 man resto druids stronger versions of the mushrooms as the heal is spread a lot further in a 25 man instance, inherently making the heal weaker on fights where the raid is clumped together (300k/25 < 300k/10)

Just to give you an example you can relate too, this is the breakdown on how your mushrooms healed in your most recent Ra-Den kill, I will let you work out the numbers on how effective WM was in this instance (my rough estimation, a little less then half of your WM detonations were actually useful):
440 Pet hits
511 Player hits
288 of those 511 hits were overheals
of which 272 did no healing at all.
Only 16 of the overheals did any healing at all.

lol.. a little paranoid aren't we? Don't flatter yourself. I think I have responded to one of your posts, and considering you are posting multiple time per page you might just have to thicken up your skin and deal with it. I will continue to do so as long you post and defend misleading/incorrect information.

Again, you really do not understand the mechanics you are trying to analyze. Those numbers from my log are a perfect example. I popped shrooms repeatedly when select people in the raid/stack got crackle (less than half), meaning the rest of the stack was at full HP and received pure overhealing. This was INTENTIONAL. I also popped them for unleashed vitas when our raid basically laughed them off with shields and mitigation. But that is just the fight, there is very little damage beyond those two mechanics for the first 5-6 minutes. It makes WM easy to use liberally, but also cause massive over-healing.

As I said, reducing the raw healing WILL NOT increase effective healing. Using Ra-Den again.... since you do not seem to get it:

21 people in the raid stack, 2 in vita passing positions, one tank in front, one DK in back handling adds. Adds gets a crackle off in the raid. 10 people drop to 50% health. I pop my full mushroom. Lets say they did ~2.1 million healing total to make it simple. That means each player in the stack potentially receives 100K healing. But oops! Lets say there were also 7 pets at that time. That means only 75K per target. So those 10 players hit by crackle get healed for 75K.

So fast forward, we use the new Shroom on the same mechanic, which is about a 40% nerf. According to you this change will "make them have less over-healing and more effective healing". What do we actually get? About 45K healing per player hit by crackle, instead of the current 75k. The effective healing will only go down, period.

If Blizzard wanted to truly reduce overhealing and increase effective healing, it would require a smart healing change. But that is obviously not their intent. Straight buffs/nerfs to raw output will always impact effective healing far more than over-healing.

Also:

Only 16 of the overheals did any healing at all.

Do you not see it now? It is very binary, either it healed or it did not. It is kind of funny, the numbers you posted make it painfully obvious, yet you totally missed it:

One of your main points is that reducing the size of the heal would reduce over-healing. Using my Ra-Den numbers, that would only potentially effect 16 of 951 hits. That is less than 2% of the hits.... In reality all the change did was reduce the healing I did on the 223 hits that had no over-healing. Those 223 hits, or 23%, would be directly effected by a reduction in effective healing by the nerf. My mushroom healing would have been reduced by roughly 40%.

[Auxis]

I haven't played my druid in ages, but wasn't there a glyph or something that gave mana back on Wrath casts?

[Keiyra]

I haven't played my druid in ages, but wasn't there a glyph or something that gave mana back on Wrath casts?

Nope, no such glyph that i ever remember seeing

[Checksmix]

Nope, no such glyph that i ever remember seeing

Wasn't there malfurions gift as a talent in Cata? I seem to remember something like that at some point, but not in MoP at all.

[Karashote]

Just go look at the top 10 RDruids ranks on Ra-Den. Every one of them have between 50 and 70% overhealing from shrooms. Even your guilds resto druid managed to pull 64% overhealing from shrooms on that fight. For your druid, the average hit from WM was only 5k, average crit was 11k. Far from your 68k per person, and still quite a ways away from your 44k per person post "significant nerf". The point is, even used properly they are overhealing for a metric ton. Meaning the effective healing they are doing is way below what the devs intended, which may account for this nerf.

I appreciate you looking through my logs but you really don't know what you are talking about. Most of my shroom healing on that fight was for healing burst damage that is taken from the Crackling Stalker. Only about 8-12 people get hit at a time for about 250k, if you tell me there will be no overhealing from shrooms then you have no right discussing these mechanics in these threads. Of course my average shroom heal was that low, the majority of the hits were 100% overheal, that is how the fight works.

Now. Stop picking fights you can't win, let us get back to civilized discussions about Resto Druids instead of this back and forth bullshit.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 05:36 PM ----------

Also, if you guys have any input on the mushroom placement change that is coming in 5.4 please give your feedback in this thread so blizzard can see it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9309441365

[Keiyra]

Wasn't there malfurions gift as a talent in Cata? I seem to remember something like that at some point, but not in MoP at all.

You are thinking of Fury of Stormrage talent back in Cata: Reduces the mana cost of your Wrath spell by 50/100%, and when you deal damage with your Wrath spell you have a 6/12% chance to cause your next Starfire to be instant cast within 8 sec.

but #1) That did not return mana, it simply made wrath free, and #2 was not a glyph which was what you previously asked about.


but enough derailing...

[Karashote]

Is the new Glyph of Efflo. available on the PTR? From data-mining, it looks like it could be our "legendary" glyph. Folks have already data-mined what looks to be a Warrior-only legendary questline.

Do we have any more information on this? I have not seen anything about this anywhere else.

[Checksmix]

Do we have any more information on this? I have not seen anything about this anywhere else.

Well i for one haven't heard anything about legendary glyphs. And the quest for warriors is probably the legendary one. Just labeled as class specific.

[vow1152]

Well i for one haven't heard anything about legendary glyphs. And the quest for warriors is probably the legendary one. Just labeled as class specific.

Hopefully they just haven't implemented the glyph yet and haven't pulled it. IMO the constant efflo from our shroom will make up for the lost burst healing potential.

[boochicken]

Where are all the druids that actually raid and not do stupid 10 mans.

Don't be rude man, not everyone can raid 25s. Healing 10s is as much raiding as healing 25s.