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  1. #461
    dysmorphic-samophlange-of-discontinuit Heroic Warforged -

    how much it will give mp5? Or mana for a single accident

  2. #462
    Tranq's raw healing is really irrelevant.
    No. Tranq's raw healing is most if not everything it has to offer. Its a glorified WG with channel time and copious amounts of raw healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    Your analysis of tranq is very shortsighted.

    Very few mechanics need you to "heal the raid as quick as possible". It is much more common to have 10+ second mechanics that pulse the raid over the duration, or even longer. Lightning Storm, Discharge, Quills, Fist Smash, Rampage, etc. etc. As I said above, literally every mechanic in ToT is better fit by a slower (and significantly stronger) channel. The two fights that are exceptions are Horridon and Animus, but even then I think arguing that a 2 second quicker cast for significantly less total healing is "better" is a stretch. In 25s there is a 10+ million combined health pool. Having a tranq that heals for almost 15% less is just less efficient, as it never reaches that cap.

    IMO one of the best part of tranqs is its smart healing. Having it last longer takes better advantage of that aspect during mechanics that last longer than its channel time. It will better cover those who drop low during it. This quality is also reduced with faster tranqs.

    I agree with most of what your saying, but would like to correct one of your numbers. We are not looking at a 15% loss here; my mastery at the moment is 19%, so my mastery tranq healed rightly 19% more than the nonmastery tranq. So if I go balls to the wall with mastery, i.e 13k+; I'm looking at a 35% stronger tranq. Now I have not subtracted the additional tick from the HoT that haste might grant, but I refuse to believe that one additional tick of the hot is going to pull the 35% number down much more than to 30%; so we're actually talking a very large difference.

    There is only one encounter of entire ToT I can imagine you'd like a tranq as quick as possible, and that would be dark animus heroic, on the interrupting jolt. I dealt with this by just speccing into SotF and proccing it before casting tranq.

    In general, SotF+tranq seems to sort the issue that might arrise if you are in desperate need of "HPET", but this does not seem to be a very large issue in the first place, considering the fact that theres only edge case scenarios in this game where your tranq benifits from being obscenely quick. It honestly seems like some of you are putting way too much value into haste in the tranq matter.
    Last edited by Bzl; 2013-08-26 at 05:26 PM. Reason: clarification

  3. #463
    @ Bzl
    It honestly seems like you are putting way too much value into haste in the tranq matter.
    Um I'm not sure if you are reading the same post as the rest of us. Because the Sprucelee post you quoted is all about why high haste/hasted tranq is NOT that beneficial, compared to higher mastery - explicitly because there are few scenarios where the speed is needed (DA Jolt being one of them)

    His whole post agrees with you and your argument, and yet you then say he's wrong? /confuzzeled
    Unless your last paragraph is referring to the prior poster who was in favor of the faster tranqs? If so, consider clarifying that.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-08-26 at 04:09 PM.

  4. #464
    @Keiyra I'm not sure you read my post. At all. I agreed with Sprucelee fully. Mastery does seem to surpass haste. My only critique is that his numbers underestimate how much better mastery actually is.

    My very last paragraph, the one you fished the quote out from, is a critique to the author of the "HPET" metric. To make this abundantly clear I'll rephrase the wording so that it cant be misunderstood easily. "You" -> "Some of you guys".

  5. #465
    The amount of mastery a player has is not a factor in the comparison. The 15% is assuming someone directly swapped to 13163 haste from 3043, and used only mastery to do so. That would be 10120 mastery which is 21% harmony. I then calculated tranq to gain about 8% with the additional hot tick using Treecalcs. The stacking HoT is a significant part of the heal, but not so significant that it outweighs the loss of harmony to the direct heals and HoT. Even two extra ticks would still be 5% behind.

    So assuming a pure swap of mastery for haste to reach 13163 from 3043, that is a loss of 21% Harmony for a gain of 8% healing from haste via the HoT tick. That is a net loss of 13%, and where I got "almost 15%". So that was actually a little bit inflated

    Higher values of mastery are irrelevant, if you had 35% harmony that means you have almost 17,000 mastery, but you would not trade all of it to go to 13,163 haste, so your point is misleading. You would never drop all 17k mastery for haste, as that is far beyond the 13k BP and useless.

    Also, the reality for me is it is a mix of mastery, more like 6k mastery and 4k spirit. The tricky part is spirit IMO, I calculated that 4k spirit at 2800 MP5 with the new innervate. That is almost 40 extra rejuv casts over a 10 minute fight. In heroic progression I think this additional healing via mana become particularly important, as it is healing that would not be done otherwise, as opposed to Just larger or more/faster ticks.
    Last edited by Sprucelee; 2013-08-26 at 09:57 PM.
    Fangthorn <Temerity> Windrunner - US

    US #15 @ 3 Days - 12 Hours / Week

  6. #466
    Ye, I were getting almost 10% more than you because I didn't think to subtract the 3043 haste you'll be having regardless of mastery or haste build. My calculations also wrongly assumed you would be stacking haste with no limit, whereas the truth is that you'll probably cap at 13,1 point and then completly drop haste in favor of spirit and mastery.

    Btw; Can anyone confirm whether or not masterys "increased direct healing" at all affects wrathtonement? If it doesnt, that'll be another chip the haste build holds, but i seriously doubt that mastery will not interact with that mechanic, that would just seem weird.

  7. #467
    whats the best then for a 10man considering all the changes . going for the 6k haste cap and go full mastery and spirit like now or try for the 13k haste cap ? Or ?

  8. #468
    For 10 man I think the 13k BP may be strongest. In general spirit demands are lower there, as rejuv casts are lower. Also, gear distribution lends itself better for a resto druid to go for all the spirit/haste gear, since you will most likely not have competition for it.
    Last edited by Sprucelee; 2013-08-26 at 11:10 PM.
    Fangthorn <Temerity> Windrunner - US

    US #15 @ 3 Days - 12 Hours / Week

  9. #469
    was thinking about that . What about the new healing trinkets which ones you think guys are the best ?

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    For 10 man I think the 13k BP may be strongest. In general spirit demands are lower there, as rejuv casts are lower. Also, gear distribution lends itself better for a resto druid to go for all the spirit/haste gear, since you will most likely not have competition for it.
    I strongly disagree, although it does depend on your level of progression. IE are you going into HC Garrosh 3 weeks into the patch with a few heroic pieces or later on when you're verging on 10+? As a druid I seriously don't see there being much of a "spirit cap" going into SoO. (An amount of spirit to stop at because your regen is sufficient). In my 10 man experience you want to have rejuv's rolling on the whole raid most of the time. Obviously in low healing phases that isn't necessary but now, with the addition of Genesis and increased emphasis on charging of mushrooms, we have become the Rejuv carpet fitters once again.
    I much prefer very strong rejuv ticks at a slower rate rather than the opposite. I also prefer having as much spirit as I can get to be completely comfortable with being a spammer.

    So basically. Haste (3043) > Spirit > Mastery > Crit > Haste (Excess)

    As for trinkets:

    I have always preferred static intellect + mana proc / use so I would definitely be going with Samoflange, and then with the lack of a second static intellect trinket, probably an AMP trinket. I say "an" amp trinket because depending on the proc chance of the DPS one, if it's proccing off pretty much the first or second harmful spell. I would then be treating Moonfire as a sort of "on use intellect proc" where I can get on demand healing boost. This is in contrast to the healing amp trinket which would probably proc off the first or second heal you cast (on pull) and imagine a fight like Durumu. /cheer for wasted intellect proc of which its then on cooldown for the light spectrum phase where I actually need it.

    Cleave trinket may be superior for stacked fights or even more depending on its range. Multi-strike trinket may actually be a good shout for us too, if its proccing off our hot ticks. Other healers complain it'll just go to overheal, whereas we are proccing it a lot more often and on much smaller heals. If would work a bit like how, while under the effects of Nature's Vigil, our rejuvenation with heal for 20K and then 5K instantly after.

    Basically:
    Trinket 1: Dicountinruwbenee Diednoqenm Samoflange of Derp Derp (Best name)
    Trinket 2: Switch out depending on the fight requirements

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    For 10 man I think the 13k BP may be strongest. In general spirit demands are lower there, as rejuv casts are lower. Also, gear distribution lends itself better for a resto druid to go for all the spirit/haste gear, since you will most likely not have competition for it.
    I believe that to be misleading; the leather gear will have as much competition as you can possibly get from monks and balance druids; both of which will be interested in haste/spirit gear; and the offparts will be a competition between almost all casters, apart from some mage speccs and some lock specs.

    Realistically speaking, the gear you'll find on the least amount of BiS lists right now seem to be spirit/mastery gear.

  12. #472
    Um, 10 mans rarely have a Monk as a MS second or even OS third healer (at least strong comps do not), and a Boomkin is far from guaranteed. In fact, it is far more common for groups to only have one caster Druid for this exact reason, gear distribution, as well as maximizing utility with more classes. Half the job of comp design in 10-mans is to eliminate/reduce gear competition... A 10-man with 3 leather casters is just not going to exist....

    Of course every group is different, especially at lower levels that care less about comp. If you happen to have a Boomkin or Monk, or are so badly set-up that you have both, than that changes things. I have pointed out gear distribution multiple times in this thread as being a factor in going for 13k haste, it is just far more rare in properly comped 10-mans, and why I made that comment.

    As for the previous poster and spirit, I do not disagree. Some may very well prefer spirit stacking in 10-mans. I was only going of what I have read and seen when checking high progression 10-man Druids in MoP. They were often at far lower levels then 25 man Druids, or have argued for the 13k BP on that basis. I obviously think high spirit builds are strong if you push oom
    Last edited by Sprucelee; 2013-08-27 at 02:31 AM.
    Fangthorn <Temerity> Windrunner - US

    US #15 @ 3 Days - 12 Hours / Week

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    Um, 10 mans rarely have a Monk as a MS second or even OS third healer (at least strong comps do not), and a Boomkin is far from guaranteed. In fact, it is far more common for groups to only have one caster Druid for this exact reason, gear distribution, as well as maximizing utility with more classes. Half the job of comp design in 10-mans is to eliminate/reduce gear competition... A 10-man with 3 leather casters is just not going to exist....
    That's true.

    Also, I think you're right about the significance of spirit for 10 mans. To get from 3k haste to 13k haste required me to drop like 4.5k spirit. That's like 2520 MP5 or about 30k mana per minute, which is less than 4 rejuv's per minute. This may be significant for 25 man raiders, but to me as a 10 man player this doesn't look like an aweful lot.

    Anyway, I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that 3k haste build is somewhat more reliable. But that doesn't mean that 13k HBP build isn't viable. I personally will try 13k one first in SoO and if it will be weak for progression - you know, getting back to 3k haste + mastery is a matter of 5-10 minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I just realized that in 5.4 Innervate will scale with spirit, which will probably make 4.5k spirit matter a lot more.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Bzl View Post
    No. Tranq's raw healing is most if not everything it has to offer. Its a glorified WG with channel time and copious amounts of raw healing.
    Sort of. If your objective with Tranq is to just put out all the healing that is required for a particular phase or moment of the fight, that's fine. However, I believe the overall point is that Tranq can be used in a manner such that it is a wipe-preventer, much like Revival has been this tier (to the point that it needed to be nerfed for 5.4). Obviously, using a CD in such a manner is far more important than just using a CD to push out the require HPS for a particular moment, especially when you consider the fact that Revival itself has been nerfed. If your view of Tranq is merely the latter, however, then there isn't really anything more to be said about it post-5.3. I wouldn't know why you all would bother to engage in a quasi-discussion about it.
    Last edited by DetectiveJohnKimble; 2013-08-27 at 09:22 AM.

  15. #475
    Well I do challenge you to find a significant sample size of 10 man resto druids with high progression in ToT, they were pretty scarce. Additionally, are you checking them now, while they are on farm content, or during March when they were progressing. I mean bosses are dying in 5minutes nowadays and i'm personally reforged for balance and people ask me: "Crit gems as resto?".

  16. #476
    I'm hearing too much about 10 man and not enough about 25. It's a very different format than 2 or 3 healing in 10 man when you know your heals will always count. In 25, with 6 healers sniping every heal they can get, and the shielders robbing us first, haste is your only hope of grabbing your share. Sure, in a 5 healing fight, I'll get more action, but the heroic fights we've been focusing on require 6.

    Additionally, next patch will have every kind of variety of numbers of people in raids with 24, 23, and 22 man fights. You 10 man healers might want to prepare to flex heal for anything, and haste will help you compete in the bigger raids.
    Last edited by Garbostomp; 2013-08-27 at 03:24 PM.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by DetectiveJohnKimble View Post
    Sort of. If your objective with Tranq is to just put out all the healing that is required for a particular phase or moment of the fight, that's fine. However, I believe the overall point is that Tranq can be used in a manner such that it is a wipe-preventer, much like Revival has been this tier (to the point that it needed to be nerfed for 5.4). Obviously, using a CD in such a manner is far more important than just using a CD to push out the require HPS for a particular moment, especially when you consider the fact that Revival itself has been nerfed. If your view of Tranq is merely the latter, however, then there isn't really anything more to be said about it post-5.3. I wouldn't know why you all would bother to engage in a quasi-discussion about it.
    The situation you describe can be dealt with by using Soft.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by cr4sher View Post
    dysmorphic-samophlange-of-discontinuit Heroic Warforged -

    how much it will give mp5? Or mana for a single accident
    17850 mana for one proc

    Heroic WF 2/2 upg

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbostomp View Post
    I'm hearing too much about 10 man and not enough about 25. It's a very different format than 2 or 3 healing in 10 man when you know your heals will always count. In 25, with 6 healers sniping every heal they can get, and the shielders robbing us first, haste is your only hope of grabbing your share. Sure, in a 5 healing fight, I'll get more action, but the heroic fights we've been focusing on require 6.

    Additionally, next patch will have every kind of variety of numbers of people in raids with 24, 23, and 22 man fights. You 10 man healers might want to prepare to flex heal for anything, and haste will help you compete in the bigger raids.
    Having more rejuvenations out at all times will generally get you better results than a slightly faster ticking rejuv and an additional tick via haste, if sniping is your concern. Wider coverage of rejuvs to cover random damage is your best bet to net higher HPS and spots on the meter. WG is the exception, but I still find rejuv blanketing to be the strongest approach. The other benefit to a higher spirit build is you can have more mastery, so you end up with stronger ticks as well.

    I find 13k haste is best when you know that last tick will actually heal. In the situation you describe, this is often not going to happen, and sounds like farm. The reason that haste builds are strong during current farm is that the fights are so short due to being overgeared, it makes mana is mostly irrelevant, and you can keep coverage up while also lowering cast time etc... In early farm and progression this is much different, mana demands are far higher.

    In progression, both haste and spirit builds will be strong (as long as you can sustain healing at higher haste and lower spirit), as overhealing tends to drop significantly. I personally like spirit as it allows for imperfect play, healer deaths, wider rejuv blanketing, and more active use of Genesis.
    Last edited by Sprucelee; 2013-08-27 at 10:56 PM.
    Fangthorn <Temerity> Windrunner - US

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  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garbostomp View Post
    It's a very different format than 2 or 3 healing in 10 man when you know your heals will always count. In 25, with 6 healers sniping every heal they can get, and the shielders robbing us first, haste is your only hope of grabbing your share. Sure, in a 5 healing fight, I'll get more action, but the heroic fights we've been focusing on require 6.
    If your main goal is to "snipe" the other healers to ultimately secure a top spot on the meters, then you're doing it very wrong. Healing is a collective effort and should be done with a collective goal in mind. The selfish padding mindset on progression is potentially detrimental and will most likely be an issue for your guilds progress. Your healing and position on the meters is not at all a direct correlation with skill or performance, and likewise healing rankings are worthless as they are obtained under special conditions (less healers, taking more damage etc.).

    Hps is a completely different measure to dps, you can't treat them as the same and doing so only hinders your play.
    Percolator, Resto Druid
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