Resto changes and new things in 5.4

[Chrispotter]

Resto druids currently one of the best healers on PTR from what ive seen in Testing. I dont play one, but they are looking pretty strong atm, even if they wont be the best healer, they will still be "good".

[Thalur]

Let's see:
-mushrooms have been nerfed significantly, all for a bit of useability gain (read: spread healing doesn't change, we're back to dead last by a significant margin on any form of stacked healing)

Frankly I don't understand how anyone can be opposed to a nerf to mushrooms. On live they are so vastly overpowered that it's not even funny, trivializing some mechanics on several encounters. I would gladly trade 50% of the healing effectiveness for some utility, because that would bring the ability more in line again.

Let's see what fully-charged mushrooms heal on live when detonated in a group of 5 (like the ranged group). Taken from my logs, each shroom heals each player for about 200k non-crit, 400k crit. So by pressing one button off the GCD, half the raid gets a Lay on Hands (600k - 1.2mio). Even on 10 players, everyone gets healed for about 50% of their HP.
At least in 10 man heroics, this trivializes several healing challenges (some examples: Horridon Dire Call, Megaera Rampage, Iron Qon P1 and Fish Smash).

The one quality of life buff that would actually be needed, however, would be to exclude pets. This would offset an even bigger throughput nerf than they are doing now.

TL;DR: mushrooms are way too strong right now and need to be nerfed for 5.4.

[Deleted]

Barkskin removed from the cd trinket, and tranquility has been added.

http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145963-readiness

[stormgust]

Barkskin removed from the cd trinket, and tranquility has been added.

http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145963-readiness

We've got a total of 4 spells now, and Might of Ursoc is still there. So it's still considerable worse for us than any other class, and will continue to be, as we lack any non-talented troughput CD, and the trinket sadly ignores all talents as suitable spells.

Honestly, if this trinket is supposed to keep class balance in line, they either need to add talents for those classes who lack them on a spec-level (i.e. druids/monk/(holy priest), or limit the spell choice to spells, to which every class has access to (i.e. 1x mana reg, 1x raid cd, 1x personal defensive cd)

[AvatarM]

We've got a total of 4 spells now, and Might of Ursoc is still there. So it's still considerable worse for us than any other class, and will continue to be, as we lack any non-talented troughput CD, and the trinket sadly ignores all talents as suitable spells.

Honestly, if this trinket is supposed to keep class balance in line, they either need to add talents for those classes who lack them on a spec-level (i.e. druids/monk/(holy priest), or limit the spell choice to spells, to which every class has access to (i.e. 1x mana reg, 1x raid cd, 1x personal defensive cd)

We will not use this trinket in most fights.

The Amplification Trinket together with the 22k spirit trinket are extremely OP for us. We and Shamans are the only ones that have (at least for now on PTR), mana regen CD that works with short spirit buffs, 22k spirit = 110k more mana on Innervate. This will make us able to reforge out from spirit, like monks do. At 550 ilvl and with Amplification trinket, this means 13k HBP, 12K+ mastery. And we will probably go for crit after this.

[Myrrar]

Why does everyone insist on saying 'we're dead!' or 'we're fine!'. Every single patch what we assume the healing balance will be like and what actually happens is different. Sometimes drastically, sometimes not.

We have some nerfs, we have some buffs. Both will be minor or major based on how quickly you personally adapt. Our tier sets suck compared to other healers and the new 'OP trinket' all the classes are excited about issssn't really great for us. We have our strong points and our weak points. At this point we seriously have no idea who is going to be best, worst, and anything in between. All the classes testing a few fights with new mechanics and set bonuses they aren't used to yet isn't giving us very useful data.

Useless argument and useless thing to worry about right now. We need to focus on what we know and test that so we can have actually data to show to Blizzard on the ptr forums.

[Deleted]

We've got a total of 4 spells now, and Might of Ursoc is still there. So it's still considerable worse for us than any other class, and will continue to be, as we lack any non-talented troughput CD, and the trinket sadly ignores all talents as suitable spells.

Honestly, if this trinket is supposed to keep class balance in line, they either need to add talents for those classes who lack them on a spec-level (i.e. druids/monk/(holy priest), or limit the spell choice to spells, to which every class has access to (i.e. 1x mana reg, 1x raid cd, 1x personal defensive cd)

Actually 5 spells. Ironbark isnt listed in the link, but its cooldown is reduced by the trinket.

[Keiyra]

We will not use this trinket in most fights.

The Amplification Trinket together with the 22k spirit trinket are extremely OP for us. We and Shamans are the only ones that have (at least for now on PTR), mana regen CD that works with short spirit buffs, 22k spirit = 110k more mana on Innervate.

I agree we'll likely use the stat trinket and the spirit one. But wanted to mention as of the last blue post divine plea will be based off spirit come 5.4, so that trinket will work well for holy pallies too. (and i'd wager it should work for disc with rapture--though the CD trinket is likely better for them)

[kagebertha]

I agree we'll likely use the stat trinket and the spirit one. But wanted to mention as of the last blue post divine plea will be based off spirit come 5.4, so that trinket will work well for holy pallies too. (and i'd wager it should work for disc with rapture--though the CD trinket is likely better for them)

Rapture doesn't work on short term spirit effects like trinkets. Does innervate still work with short term effects on the PTR? I can see divine plea and innervate being moved towards the route that rapture is right now if it becomes too OP like rapture was in 5.2.

[Deleted]

Rapture doesn't work on short term spirit effects like trinkets. Does innervate still work with short term effects on the PTR? I can see divine plea and innervate being moved towards the route that rapture is right now if it becomes too OP like rapture was in 5.2.

Yes it works with short term effects. And the mana gained doesnt decrease during the innervate if you lose any spirit.

[Thalur]

New PTR Build.

Innervate now excludes short-duration Spirit bonuses.

Guess it was just a matter of time (and I approve of this change).

[AvatarM]

New PTR Build.



Guess it was just a matter of time (and I approve of this change).

This change, with monks gaining a better Swiftmend, that don't need a hot on players (Glyph of Expel Harm (NYI) Expel Harm can now be used on other players, but heals for 0% less. Major Glyph.), put us where we are now today, in the same niche then monks, doing all things worst them monks, with finite mana, while they have infinite mana.

We were fine, until this build. Now, im really not sure. I would be fine with this change if Monk and Disc Priest Mana regen were on pair with the other healers.

[stormgust]

Glyph of efflorescence is in (and currently replaces glyph of lifebloom). It's as stated a permanent efflorescence centered on your mushroom.

First Impression: Won't make it to live. Permanent Efflorescence by itself is too strong and the intend to decouple AoEHeal/swiftmend doesn't work out. Even with a 20% buff, the reju requirement more or less kills that purpose, and it's basically reduced to a buffed WG if you specced SotF.

[Grubjuice]

I don't expect Glyph of efflorescence is even intended to go live, i've said it before, i think the devs are just experimenting with variations on different mechanics.

I would say it best not so even say anything about the glyph per se, and just talk about how the mechanics of Swiftmend, Efflorescence, and Mushrooms can or should be altered.

- - - Updated - - -

This change, with monks gaining a better Swiftmend, that don't need a hot on players (Glyph of Expel Harm (NYI) Expel Harm can now be used on other players, but heals for 0% less. Major Glyph.), put us where we are now today, in the same niche then monks, doing all things worst them monks, with finite mana, while they have infinite mana.

monks are still kind of the golden child, so it goes.
It won't last forever, but it could last until the next expansion.

[ThePlanckEnergy]

Of course they nerfed spirit interaction with Innervate. They shouldn't have, though. It was our only hope to remain competitive with Disc and MW in 10M and ANYONE (save maybe Holy Paladins) in 25s.

We are officially going to be drag on whatever raid we are in. The funny thing is the interaction would just give us the kind of mana regeneration Monks and Disc have had the entire expansion. AT least we'd have to hold CDs and time it.

Are Mushrooms too strong on live? Probably, but even with them we're only middle of the pack. And the totality of changes on the PTR so far is a large nerf from there (while Mistweavers and Disc have received numerous buffs, and Shamans will be FAR FAR FAR better than us in 25s).

- - - Updated - - -

And why in the FLYING HELL would Glyph of Efflo replace Glyph of Lifebloom?? I guess we're not allowed to do tank swaps anymore. At least that solves the issue of what to remove to fit it in (as if it's even going live - it would actually be a buff)!

[Sylvan]

The one quality of life buff that would actually be needed, however, would be to exclude pets. This would offset an even bigger throughput nerf than they are doing now.

My understanding of mushrooms is that pets do not count. They get healed, but when dividing up mushroom healing, Blizzard only counts players and then heals both players and pets for that amount (which makes mushroom healing have more overhealing than is actually relevant).

I've seen many comments about mushroom overhealing and also about it healing pets, so I did some testing. One mushroom fully charged healed myself for about 500k; another mushroom fully charged healed a hunter and his pet for about 500k each. I also pulled all mushroom heals for one night (51 bloom casts) into a spreadsheet and found that while mushrooms overall had 54% overhealing, healing done to players was only 16% overhealing while healing done to pets was 99+% overhealing.

Based on these data, mushrooms healing pets is a bonus (similar to how Prayer of Healing also heals pets but doesn't reduce how much it heals players when it does while also bumping up its overhealing done).

[Gags]

The changes to the legendary cloak is a nice little perk for us. During the proc any overhealing done to a target will heal nearby targets.

[Kildragon]

Lol what's up Grubjuice. I guess compared to the guys in this thread I'm about as mild as you can get when it comes to being a drama queen. I mean holy shit, you guys are acting like the most defeatist bunch posssible. "Nothing will ever change, QQQQQ, we'll always suck, QQQQQ, oh I see buffs, can't be true cause Blizz hates us and wants every Resto druid to stop playing the game QQQQQ".

I mean fuck, people are whining about how MW's have received numerous buffs for some reason. Hint; there isn't even a MW section in the official patch notes. They have received 0 changes. None, at all, whatsoever. I don't see how you can sit here and cry that they got buffed. They didn't. The only change was the revival change, which was however offset by Tranq receiving the same exact treatment. Discipline priests have also not been touched, except for some talent adjustments simply meant to make unattractive talents slightly more attractive.

Holy Paladins have really only received nerfs up til now, and you have to keep in mind that they were already behind every healer except for Shamans after since June. Any further nerfs on the PTR are obviously only making them weaker, and they would actually need some bigger buffs to bring them back in line.

Now Shamans are the one class that has been buffed significantly, and they actually NEEDED it, more so than anyone. Regardless of any mana battery utility they bring, their throughput was absolute shit this tier.

I'm about to link some raidbots graphs. Don't be the idiot that tries to tell me Resto Druids are way behind Monks and paladins for 10man heroic for example. Yes they may be under them in a ranked ladder, but the difference between each class is sub 2%. Just because Paladins are second on the ladder doesn't mean they are anywhere near Disc. Look at the numbers, not just the shiny boxes and where they sit on the ladder.

Also, may I remind you that Priests are the only class out of whack at this point? Yes Disc is very strong, we all know that. But looking at all parses for 25H Resto Druids are just about perfectly balanced with Monks and Paladins, while Shamans are miles behind.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...00000000111111

Looking at the top 100 logs actually makes Resto look even better.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...00000000111111

For 10 man heroic, Resto Druids are also balanced with paladins, monks, and holy priests. Disc is the only outlier.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...00000000111111

For the top 100 logs Resto Druids are balanced with Paladins and Monks, with only disc being the outlier.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...00000000111111


So, are you fine on live? Yes you are. Are you nerfed a bit on the PTR? Perhaps, but I haven't seen a lot of quality raid testing and comparing yourself to that US top 10 paladin when you're an unranked player or vice versa doesn't help anyone. Have people figured out how to properly use Genesis yet? The interaction with Genesis and Mushrooms could be huge in prepping for burst phases. Opening up your T2 talents by making NS baseline was also a throughput increase, although not a huge one. What about Nature's Vigil now being a lot more useful for Resto, just like HotW? The living seed buff, while not huge, is also a throughput increase. And who knows, they might buff you more.

Just please quit your crying as if Resto druids were already buried or will ever be buried.

[AvatarM]

The problem is monks having the same niche that druids, and be always ahead of us. They gained a SM without hot requirement, thats the only downside of the spell.

Uplift > Genesis. Uplift don't consume HoT.
Monks have infinite mana, druid don't.

Do you really thing that healers having infinite mana is fine? The strongest trinket in PTR currently uses secondary stats to boost healing. Amplification gives you 14% haste and mastery. And your crits will do 14% more heals. In 540-550 ilvl, you have +-35k secondary stats. Monks and disc priests can simple ignore spirit and put most of their secondary stats in crit/mastery for disc and crit/haste for monks. Druids will need to put most of their secondary stats into spirit. Do you really think druids will be fine after this? We are screwed, if i was a raid leader, i would never take a resto druid over a a monk if this situation if they are equally skilled. We have been eclipsed by monks for the entire exp. I really don't think its fine, the reason i just don't reroll if this changes persist it's cause we already have a monk MW.

[Myrrar]

-snip-

1st off, I'm not playing next patch nor am I playing at all anymore, so brushing my post of as 'you're just crying about your class' won't work.

The discussion about what you posted has gone on for just this page. No where on this page has anyone mentioned rdruids being bad this tier, they talked about mana regen vs other classes atm and how that compares with next patch. It seems like you didn't even read the posts you are insulting.

Your data means nothing since no one is talking about live. It has nothing to do with this discussion, at all, in any way possible. Someone mentioned as a side note we are middle of the pack atm, your links show that. Glad that's cleared up.


All healing specs are getting new set bonuses. Those set bonuses being bad or good absolutely adds to a classes value and potential. New trinkets are being added, legendary cloak procs are being added, all these things are something that will be taken into consideration when looking at how good classes are compared to others. If a new trinket proc is insane for 2 healing specs and useless for the rest that can push their potential higher. That's not really a hard concept. People talking about these things and considering them when looking at class balance IS what should be happening.

Changes to Monks and Dpriests:
Monks: New NYI glyphs to look out for, chi brew was buffed, power strikes was buffed
Disc: Hymn of hope was buffed, Divine insight was buffed(big time), from darkness comes light was buffed, glyph of reflective shield and purify were both buffed

On top of all that, fights will favor some classes and not others. Classes with niches that are used often will outdo others. Classes that share niches but have underwhelming set bonuses, trinkets, or nerfs to certain spells that helped with that niche will become far less useful than the other person under that niche.


As I said in my previous post, I see no point panicking yet because everything can change and we really don't have enough data to say how good/bad we'll be, but your over-reaction and over-exaggeration is no less 'dramatic' than people worrying about their spec and talking about it. Insulting people also isn't tolerated on our forums, if you can't voice your opinion without being rude and talking down to everyone around you refrain from replying.