5.4 KJC changes.

[Arrogant Bastard]

@brusalk i agree with you that afflic warlocks would be in a worse situation, but how does that support the theory that you're still worse off than a spriest when it comes to movement? As a spriest, most fights require Solace and Insanity, which needs to be channeled its full duration to receive its benefit.. if we have to move, and we're sitting at 3 orbs on something like durumu goo phase, we have to dump DP on them and stutter step insanity. (do note that insanity is one of our higher damage spells single-target here). Also, as we spam Shadow Word: Pain, we also have to worry about snapshotted dots.. ESPECIALLY this tier with our 2-set bonus. If we have a 1 min long shadow word: pain on our target or UVLS dots on our target, we can literally do nothing but hope for a DI proc, as we'd gain more on not having to waste GCDs on refreshing SWP for a minute or a UVLS dot.

I am convinced affliction is being nerfed very hard here, i guess i'm just venting as a spriest and I've always envied the thought of having KJC. I can't say I know enough about warlocks to justify my standing.

Who is stating that Spriests do not have it bad? They do. What is being argued is it is not beneficial to drop warlock to spriest level. Spriest needs to be brought into the fold. Ranging while moving is the way the game should go, not back into the days where you had to stand still to dps. That boat has passed, encounters require more and more movement each tier.

Making warlocks stand still to do dps isn't going to help Spriest at all. What it will do is kill the fun and gameplay changes that have been made through the tiers and MoP.

[Gindry]

Who is stating that Spriests do not have it bad? They do. What is being argued is it is not beneficial to drop warlock to spriest level. Spriest needs to be brought into the fold. Ranging while moving is the way the game should go, not back into the days where you had to stand still to dps. That boat has passed, encounters require more and more movement each tier.

Making warlocks stand still to do dps isn't going to help Spriest at all. What it will do is kill the fun and gameplay changes that have been made through the tiers and MoP.

I feel like there would have to be some major changes to class mechanics in order to achieve this on a shadow priest or any other class.. which is why I feel it's easier for Blizzard to simply change a talent rather than ranged mechanics as a whole with much larger implications. Bringing one class down is easier than moving several up. Hopefully we can see this next expansion

[Fanatik]

*Edit*

Live with the fact that KJC is going to be changed and that Blizzard does not want ALL of our abilities to be casted while moving. The sooner you come to terms with that the sooner we as a whole can find a solution that Blizzard approves us that will allow KJC to be useful still rather than a fish out of water.

Because every change in a PTR build always makes it to Live... See Cataclysm (Spell). All we really need to do is hop on PTR, test it out while tanking as hard as you can, then say "look, this is dumb, revert the change".

[Glurp]

Warlock's can't LoS while channeling and their defensives got nerfed. Warlocks new #1 kill target in PvP.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I feel like there would have to be some major changes to class mechanics in order to achieve this on a shadow priest or any other class.. which is why I feel it's easier for Blizzard to simply change a talent rather than ranged mechanics as a whole with much larger implications. Bringing one class down is easier than moving several up. Hopefully we can see this next expansion

So they need to nerf Hunters, Boomkins, Elemental Shamans too. Cause they can all do great damage on the run. It wouldn't take anything to simply bake in the ability to mindflag/insanity on the run. Nothing at all.

[Manju]

Funny, there is so much crying about it, after only a day since 5.4 notes were released.

Old Kil'Jaeden's Cunning will be baseline. The new talent will allow you to move at 100%(instead of 70%) speed for 15 seconds.

[Kagecamia]

Some interesting changes to take into account on twitter. I will link them and point out Holinka's (the guy that said killable gateway is a good thing) opinion.

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/344930825139273729

Holinka: Okay with some casting on the move but not everything. Not the direction we want the game to go.

and the next post

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/344922863297499136

Holinka: In large part dude to the power of Gateway, Warlocks are very much viable. Of course, we aren't happy with the gameplay.

If there is any hope in getting blizz to do anything, posting on twitter is at least an attempt. There is a thread on the Official General Forums called "Consolidated KJC Feedback Thread." However in it's brief lifetime it has gotten one blue post from Netharea.

I was more of a casual after I had a falling out with my raiding guild and real life started to pick up. However I think both the damage potential and my perception of fun for the warlock class has greatly brought into question whether I should even bother with the game anymore, if these changes go through.

It is a shame to see all the work that was done on us during the MOP beta being put to waste. Maybe another loss of a few million subs will finally make Blizz wake up and smell the coffee?

---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 04:20 AM ----------

Funny, there is so much crying about it, after only a day since 5.4 notes were released.

Old Kil'Jaeden's Cunning will be baseline. The new talent will allow you to move at 100%(instead of 70%) speed for 15 seconds.

Part of me wonders if you have any idea what you are talking about.... If you aren't going to offer anything constructive or worthwhile to conversation, don't say anything at all.

[Stormcall]

Why does everyone have awesome level 90 talents and now all ours blow dick. GG Blizz

You don't have a DK, do you? I could take my lvl 90 talent off my bars, and wouldn't make a bit of difference outside of PvP.

[Deleted]

Problem with Blizzard is, they go from extreme to extreme and thats why they never find the balance, they need to change stuff every week instead of every other month.

It doesn't help if they keep giving something that is extremely op or has very good synergy with other classes and then just nerf it again. When nerfing and buffing, nerf/buff the finger, not the hand.

[Fanatik]

You don't have a DK, do you? I could take my lvl 90 talent off my bars, and wouldn't make a bit of difference outside of PvP.

Really? You can't find a use for gorefiend's or remorseless for pve?

[Forgottenone]

Because every change in a PTR build always makes it to Live... See Cataclysm (Spell). All we really need to do is hop on PTR, test it out while tanking as hard as you can, then say "look, this is dumb, revert the change".

Although not official that spell did in fact make it to live with warlocks just playing around with it for fun. It was a bug but it still did make it. Also Blizzard wants to completely change KJC, they won't let it remain how it is regardless of how much we complain. HOWEVER if we complain properly as in we provide alternatives to their proposed idea maybe we can prevent it from being completely butchered.

Just by complaining and arguing right now it shows that it isn't a popular decision and that is a fact. Once we are able to get on and test it we can further complain and say how bad it is. The sheer amount of complaints (logical ones mind you) may be enough to have them change it. Basically complaining before and during PTR > complaining only during the PTR IMO.

Also I don't put it past Blizzard to release the spells how they are proposing them.

Really? You can't find a use for gorefiend's or remorseless for pve?

I believe during heroic lei shen gorefriends grasp can be used on the sparks. Same thing can be said for horridon.

[Stormcall]

Really? You can't find a use for gorefiend's or remorseless for pve?

Very rarely. So rarely, and so little use that without them it wouldn't even be fucking noticeable. They're both garbage talents for the most part.

I don't play a mage or rogue, but rogue and mage players are constantly complaining about their level 90 talents, too. Monks only complain because for both tanks and dps monks, Xuen is pretty much your only choice.

[Docmort]

I said this in the general 5.4 warlock patch note thread and I'll repeat my comment here to drum up as many numbers as possible:

I would like to give a reminder that if you are dissatisfied with this nerf to make sure you vocally take it to the PTR forum. As much as I hate to say it QQ does work and there is a higher probability of a reversal or compromise if the opposition to these changes is immediate, wide and constant. The "wait and see it's only PTR" sentiment actually decreases the possibility of shifting Blizzard's position as it's easier for them to push past if criticism doesn't really kick up until late in the patch development cycle, we've seen it before. And if you think that Blizzard will adequately compensate our current model, which has been balanced around our ability to move and cast, for the loss of KJC that's really not going to happen, and we've definitely seen that before.

And please try to make your comments constructive and limit attacks and grumbling as much as you can!

[Arrogant Bastard]

As per Holinka: Full on DPS on the move seems to be a Hunter only niche. How nice is that? Get to have the most unique ability as a ranged dps with zero drawbrack, e.g. snare, stacking damage reduction if dpsing while moving, or even a talent/glyph. Damn that must be nice.

[Chrispotter]

Uh.. Nobody takes Burning Rush.

uh... I use burning rush on all 13 fights

---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 10:30 AM ----------

You don't have a DK, do you? I could take my lvl 90 talent off my bars, and wouldn't make a bit of difference outside of PvP.

When you get to lei shen at least, you will change your mind

[Lil]

(Nakatoir: ) The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it. We weren't happy with the snare effect, but when it had a cast time debuff instead, no one used it. Changing it to just be a snare effect ended up making the talent too good.

You're right Blizzard. That talent feels mandatory because it should be baseline for all casters already.
The thunder isle solo scenarios took my poorly equipped Shadow forever, because nearly all the bosses do a ground targeted aoe ability which requires you to move every 3 seconds which resulted in me doing worse dps than my (fresh 90 dinged) monk tank, while being significantly more squishy if the bosses or the AoEs hit me.

Casters need more mobility, not less. The "stand still" requirement might have been a good balancing idea 8 years ago when you could go into full turret mode for the majority of the 40m fights. Today it's more like "let me throw all kinds of random shit at the casters which they have to dodge. Meanwhile, melees can go autoattack afk on the boss and watch their favourite tv shows while doing it."

[Arrogant Bastard]

You're right Blizzard. That talent feels mandatory because it should be baseline for all casters already.
The thunder isle solo scenarios took my poorly equipped Shadow forever, because nearly all the bosses do a ground targeted aoe ability which requires you to move every 3 seconds.

Casters need more mobility, not less. The "stand still" requirement might have been a good balancing idea 8 years ago when you could go into full turret mode for the majority of the 40m fights. Today it's more like "let me throw all kinds of random shit at the casters which they have to dodge.

100% This.

I wonder how many elemental shaman were taking Glyph Unleashed Lightning? Oh nm, it was apparently so many that they decided to bake it into the class. While the opposite is happening here. In lieu of baking it in they are just hammering locks down to the level of a shadow priest.

[dakalro]

You're right Blizzard. That talent feels mandatory because it should be baseline for all casters already.
The thunder isle solo scenarios took my poorly equipped Shadow forever, because nearly all the bosses do a ground targeted aoe ability which requires you to move every 3 seconds which resulted in me doing worse dps than my (fresh 90 dinged) monk tank, while being significantly more squishy if the bosses or the AoEs hit me.

Casters need more mobility, not less. The "stand still" requirement might have been a good balancing idea 8 years ago when you could go into full turret mode for the majority of the 40m fights. Today it's more like "let me throw all kinds of random shit at the casters which they have to dodge. Meanwhile, melees can go autoattack afk on the boss and watch their favourite tv shows while doing it."

Hahahaha, and Blizzard cannot see why 99% of affliction took that talent?
Maybe because all locks would be another spec if they needed to AoE because Affliction doesn't do AoE properly given the current fights?
Maybe because AV is utter crap?
Maybe because without it Affliction cannot function properly?

Fix the above and then you can nerf KJC.

At least for destro getting MF gave you options on bosses that moved/multi target.

[Jessicka]

The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it. We weren't happy with the snare effect, but when it had a cast time debuff instead, no one used it. Changing it to just be a snare effect ended up making the talent too good. We have a long PTR cycle ahead, there is plenty of time to tinker with it, and Warlocks will be balanced around this.

It’s worth noting that the new Kil'Jaeden's Cunning is off of the global cooldown and can be cast while another spell cast is already in progress. For the Affliction Warlocks worried about this change; one recent change on the 5.4 PTR is that Haunt is now castable while moving.

I think that second paragraph, the one you didn't get to will make a difference. Mobility in this game is meant to be an issue for casters, they're not going to hand out more. Haunt, Life Tap and DoTs while moving, as well as Fel Flame should be plenty adequate.

[Arrogant Bastard]

The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it. We weren't happy with the snare effect, but when it had a cast time debuff instead, no one used it. Changing it to just be a snare effect ended up making the talent too good. We have a long PTR cycle ahead, there is plenty of time to tinker with it, and Warlocks will be balanced around this.

It’s worth noting that the new Kil'Jaeden's Cunning is off of the global cooldown and can be cast while another spell cast is already in progress. For the Affliction Warlocks worried about this change; one recent change on the 5.4 PTR is that Haunt is now castable while moving.

I think that second paragraph, the one you didn't get to will make a difference. Mobility in this game is meant to be an issue for casters, they're not going to hand out more. Haunt, Life Tap and DoTs while moving, as well as Fel Flame should be plenty adequate.

As it stands mobility in this game is only going to be an issue for some ranged. MG/Incinerate not castable while moving is gut wrenching considering current Warlock mechanics. Why isn't mobility an issue for Hunters and a lesser extent Elemental Shamans?

Secondary issue. The reason why 99% took the talent is because the other two were nearly worthless. The answer is not to nerf KjC, it is to buff/reevaluate the 90 tier. IF KjC was nearly universally taken that tells you it is apparently needed. Is this not precisely what they did with the Unleashed Lightening for Elemental Shamans?