View Poll Results: Do you think Bliz will actually nerf KJC?

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  • Yes

    576 74.32%
  • No

    199 25.68%
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  1. #661
    I am sorry if this has already been said since I didn't bother to read all the pages but why don't they just make the filler spells be able to be used while casting with KJC? Would make sense to me if it was like that. Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianCC View Post
    Snicker snicker the Warlock tears for the last week have been fantastic. All the FOTM rerollers changing to Warlocks because they've been ludicrous in PVE and PVP all expansion crying because they're being brought down in line with all the other classes who have no or minimal ability to cast on the move (moonkin, mage, shadow priest).

    Hopefully they remove the "always able to cast while moving" on lightning bolt as well and give Melee back the niche of being useful mobile DPS.

    Unless you have something meaningful that adds to the conversation, please refrain from posting this kind of stuff. This sort of talk does nothing to help the situation, but does help significantly in derailing topics and turning them into a flame-war.

    I approve this message ~Niberion
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-06-18 at 07:49 AM.

  3. #663
    the argument that no caster should be able to cast and move may sound logical and fair on a general level
    However, if you understand affliction spec, you realize that removing KJC at its current state and leaving rest of Affliction unchanged will actually make Affliction unplayable and broken.

    If Blizz wants to change KJC mechanics, thats fine, However they need to revamp the affliction spec altogether in terms of DOT damage numbers, Fel Flame Mechanics, haunt mechanic and Shard procs.

    Bottom line is, if they want to increase the skill cap of affliction by tweaking KJC, that's fine. As long as the rest of the Aff spec is re-balanced as well so that a good player can still pump out decent DPS.
    What wont be fine, is if they change KJC alone and end up breaking affliction completely.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianCC View Post
    Snicker snicker the Warlock tears for the last week have been fantastic. All the FOTM rerollers changing to Warlocks because they've been ludicrous in PVE and PVP all expansion crying because they're being brought down in line with all the other classes who have no or minimal ability to cast on the move (moonkin, mage, shadow priest).

    Hopefully they remove the "always able to cast while moving" on lightning bolt as well and give Melee back the niche of being useful mobile DPS.
    Im not sure if you could be more wrong. Please feel free to show us locl representation in arena and PVE dps logs. KJC is not why demo warlocks are doing so well, its UVLS. Of course from your post I doubt you care about that.

  5. #665
    This change is even worst than I thought it would be.

  6. #666
    I certainly hope they don't

    I never really cared for, and still don't like this new talent system, I felt that KJC was very fun and usefull, it actually made the other horrible changes they made to warlocks bearable

  7. #667
    Reading through this again, I am exasperated by it.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

    Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.
    As I noted earlier, this is a nerf to PvP exposing us further to interupts and worse, double school lockout. It's also a nerf to Destruction and Demonology where DoT maintenance for their resource generation overides their damage.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.
    It's obvious the damage from Aff is down to the synergy between Haunt and MG, buffing Haunt wont really make all that much difference. Further, buffing DoTs on the back of having Corruption nerfed due to overstrong multidotting seems like a backward step.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

    These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.
    Mannoroth's Fury is also necessary for Demonology when you can't actually get close to AoE; it's the reason we kept Hellfire when they were considering switching to RoF. As for MF and Destruction's single target rotation is absurd, it makes no difference there, but we'll still use it the moment a second target wanders into range. Selling it as a QoL improvement is a little disingenuous.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacomus View Post
    I am sorry if this has already been said since I didn't bother to read all the pages but why don't they just make the filler spells be able to be used while casting with KJC? Would make sense to me if it was like that. Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents
    Multiple times.

    It looks too easy and, reasonable to be done.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthan View Post
    Multiple times.

    It looks too easy and, reasonable to be done.
    That might make KJC a bit useless comparing to MF in PvE.
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  10. #670
    From the affliction thread, appropriate here as well

    So let me see if I understand this correctly...

    Fel flame is now a 2-school scorch (double lockout on interrupt? another spell with cast time for destruction? How does this affect void ray?)
    Fel flame has a cast time of 1.5 seconds and can be casted while moving (was instant with 1.5s gcd, now interruptable and has cast/flight time)
    Fel flame DoT extension is removed. This means proc refreshes after a pandemic refresh will cost us 3 gcd's instead of 2 for affliction.
    Fel flame damage will be buffed, but the amount of damage will not sway you away from your spec's filler.
    DoT damage receiving a compensation increase. DoT damage was previously reduced to balance multi-target cleaving, so either the compensation isn't very much or it will eventually be reduced once the patch goes live.
    Malefic grasp damage reduced and redistributed into Haunt/DoTs. Will Drain soul follow with the same redistribution and will GoSac be balanced to compensate for the damage loss to MG?
    Haunt's damage compensation won't be enough to make up for the loss in Haunt+MG uptime.
    Haunt not castable while moving just means you can't move for the next 9.5 seconds or your damage tanks.
    The 10/60 change for KJC/MF is a change to balance cooldowns with raid mechanics. Its still terrible.
    MF now affects fewer spells (doesnt include HoG, Chaos Wave, Carrion Swarm, Void Ray, FnB) and there is no way the 100% damage increase makes it to live (RoF and Hellfire/IAura DPET makes them part of the single target rotation).
    Nothing yet on ember compensation for the RoF nerf.
    Nothing yet on UVLS being inevitably nerfed.
    Nothing yet on shifting soul shard use from soulburn soul swap to something else
    Nothing yet on a fix for Agony soul swap snapshot.
    Nothing on nerf to Soul Leech capping at 30% hp on the PTR (bug perhaps?)
    I'm still not using Archimonde's Vengeance, which goes against blizzard philosophy of taking damage to do damage...

    I personally have no confidence in my class at the moment. I've played my lock since vanilla, from the glory days of SL/SL to the dark days of "Global the warlock". KJC was one of the greatest quality of life changes blizzard made to this class since they removed soul shard farming (hopefully they don't read this and get an idea), and casted movement will be missed. Just a reminder though:

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @johnlvarner Knowing game rules is critical for PvP. Asking players to learn new rules (run from the dying lock!) in mid-season is harsh.
    #Xelnath2013!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Fanatik; 2013-06-18 at 10:00 AM.

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It's obvious the damage from Aff is down to the synergy between Haunt and MG, buffing Haunt wont really make all that much difference. Further, buffing DoTs on the back of having Corruption nerfed due to overstrong multidotting seems like a backward step.
    The real punchline is that buffing haunt is counterproductive - the more damage tied into haunt, the more we NEED to be rooted after casting a haunt, since that's where our damage comes from, ergo, the more being unable to channel MG if forced to move is a problem.

    Trying to sell us it as part of the post trying to compensate for KJC is just misleading, it's essentially still MG damage, just only available during haunt uptimes - the damage moved to dots is all we've gained while mobile.

    For the people worried about the ROF removal, you (hopefully) don't need to worry - it was announced that they were planning it ages ago, at the time they said they'd be compensating ember generation to remain the same, they just wanted ROF out of the single target rotation since it was unintuitive (though I personally feel the rotation without ROF is too empty).

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    The real punchline is that buffing haunt is counterproductive - the more damage tied into haunt, the more we NEED to be rooted after casting a haunt, since that's where our damage comes from, ergo, the more being unable to channel MG if forced to move is a problem.

    Trying to sell us it as part of the post trying to compensate for KJC is just misleading, it's essentially still MG damage, just only available during haunt uptimes - the damage moved to dots is all we've gained while mobile.

    For the people worried about the ROF removal, you (hopefully) don't need to worry - it was announced that they were planning it ages ago, at the time they said they'd be compensating ember generation to remain the same, they just wanted ROF out of the single target rotation since it was unintuitive (though I personally feel the rotation without ROF is too empty).
    The idea of more damage while stationary to offset loss during movement is basically what Mage T90 talents are about, it's not necessarily a bad thing so long as it genuinely translates to that.

    Trying to sell the utility nerf of Fel Flame as a compensatory buff though is rather annoying. It would be hilarious though if their answer to fix my above concerns would result in the reimplimentation of Searing Pain replacing FF for Affliction

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Trying to sell the utility nerf of Fel Flame as a compensatory buff though is rather annoying. It would be hilarious though if their answer to fix my above concerns would result in the reimplimentation of Searing Pain replacing FF for Affliction
    Only to be reverted once mages complain that we have a bonus 50% crit chance on our scorch. Come 5.5, we'll be hearing how 50% crit was unintended and they completely scrap fel flame and searing pain and return us back to stutter stepping, shadow bolt, and shadow trance for all specs!

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanatik View Post

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler


    #Xelnath2013!!!!!!!
    so that's the reason why they are changing so much our mechanics? If only i wasn't a warlock it would be very amusing.

  15. #675
    My prediction (as the damage shift from MG to dots was way too easy to predict) is to give and additional effect to FF:

    FF also deals some dot damage like MG for affliction, more resources for Destro and Demo.

  16. #676
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    There is very little wiggle room in the current affliction/destruction design. KJC wasn't given to warlocks in a whim; it was made necessary due to the redesigned warlock (affli/destro) playstyle in MoP. These specs were designed to revolve around long casts or channeled spells to generate damage and resources. Obviously, that didn't work in the current PvE or (especially) PvP environment. So, Blizzard fixed this the usual way: counter the broken mechanics by a single powerful ability (which, if considered in vacuum, is OP). They have taken the same approach e.g. in trying to fix the monk and rogue PvP. Consequently, KJC is an integral part of affli and destro in their current form.

    So, take away KJC and you are either left with two broken specs (affli/destro), or you have to pretty much redesign the class mechanics again. While I've always been slightly against the talent, I feel it is too difficult to change it now in the middle of the expansion and adjust the class design accordingly. The required changes would simply be too major. Any single change to compensate for the KJC nerf will just break the specs in question elsewhere. Adding cast time on Fel Flame won't work for obvious PvP reasons, in particular it will completely kill destro (if it isn't already). Increasing DoT damage will again result in too powerful multidotting for affli. Etc.

    Out of the three options: (a) leave the talents as is until 6.0, (b) break KJC and MF without major gameplay changes (--> destro/affli get CATACLYSMED again), (c) break KJC and MF while trying to compensate it with one or two changes (--> replaces an issue, unhindered mobility, by another, e.g. OP multidotting) ... I am in favor of (a).

  17. #677
    Prettymuch, KJC is the current equivalent of Blood Fear - a bad talent, but a crutch that's keeping us level with everyone else.

  18. #678
    The idea of trying to viably play destruction without it against any kind of half decent melee team in the games' current state is just laughable.

  19. #679
    KJC wasn't given to warlocks in a whim; it was made necessary due to the redesigned warlock (affli/destro) playstyle in MoP.
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.

    From their POV im sure they knew all along it was too good and that players should have never had it in the first place. The warlock revamp has been a smashing success (in the terms of growing and revitalising the warlock playerbase) and now they have just decided is the right time to reign in some of the ponys given to warlocks.

    And nobody likes having their pony taken away, as shown by this thread.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2013-06-18 at 12:24 PM.

  20. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.
    *You* wish. Affliction PvP simply died out at the start of MoP without KJC.. heck, even with it it pretty much died out. Destro with its huge cast and ramp-up times was only viable due to the equally huge damage from a successful CB cast. But that is gone now, too, the opportunity cost of a CB cast is way too high and KJC is the only way for the spec to achieve anything at PvP any more (esp. with the nerf to MF).

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