View Poll Results: Do you think Bliz will actually nerf KJC?

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  • Yes

    576 74.32%
  • No

    199 25.68%
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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesftw View Post
    Why the fck they decided to give fel flame a cast time now?! hey we dont like you to cast spells while moving , so heres spell you can cast while moving... logic. Keep it instant , maybe add some sort of ice lance mechanics , like if immolate / ua / doom is on target, it does more dmg or smth.
    Because...
    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 15 Jun

    @AustinGincott I may be wrong, but my hunch is most locks aren't upset because of the talents. I think they just want to cast while moving.
    I can pretty much say for certain I'm upset when AV doesn't do enough damage over an encounter to equate to an additional couple of Shadow Bolts. Granted it's completely passive, but it should be offering something actually tangiable to make you consider whether it might just trump the others at least sometimes.

  2. #722
    Mechagnome Rife's Avatar
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    TyrianFC is doing nothing but trolling at the moment.

    I realize mods frown upon calling out other posters for trolling but it's hindering proper discussion. If you (the troll) refuse to even attempt to enter into reasoned debate then you should stop posting or be banned. The alternative we're experiencing now is having TyrianFC say something like:

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria.
    and then seeing 20 people respond to it. It's not helping anyone or furthering anything. We're seeing blues test changes that won't fix much of anything because we can't offer proper feedback or discuss ideas because we're too focused on letting every butthurt non-warlock speak their mind with impunity.

    Here I was thinking that mods were around to foster proper discussion but it seems like they're happy having everyone be polite in response to trolling. We've tried being nice and giving people the benefit of the doubt and it's not working.

    Start handing out warnings for obvious trolling instead, please.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 01:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylo View Post
    10:60 seems like a better idea
    Why? It's the same 16% up-time as before so why would it be better? Not having a go. I'm honestly curious to see whether I'm missing something here.

    At the moment I'm thinking it's shit. RPPM trinkets are balanced around proc'ing once every minute and they last for 20 seconds. Which means we should be able to move during procs 50% of the time if they always proc together. Obviously that does not happen but it gives us a frame of reference to start with.

    Baking MORE of afflictions damage into haunt just makes the above scenario even worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faylo View Post
    Fel Flame not refreshing dots will help + more dmg into dots/Haunt. Will it be enough, we will see!
    The blue post said that MG damage was being reduced and that damage would be moved into haunt/dots instead. They're shuffling the problem one side of the equation to the other but the equation still = no damage while moving.

    5.3: RPPM + Haunt + buffed dots + MG + KJC allowing for haunt/mg spam when trinkets proc for full duration = current DPS

    5.4: RPPM + Haunt (being buffed) + buffed dots (being buffed) + MG (being nurfed) + KJC allowing for haunt/mg spam for, at best, half of the duration of haunt = broken spec for 5.4

    Buffing haunt and dots is the not answer.

  3. #723
    Rife, stop accusing people who disagree with you of trolling. The simple fact is the snare didn't offer enough of a downside to make people consider the alternatives, because it really is no downside at all. Sure, people keep saying that 'here, here and here it's bad'; I'm sure Blizzard are aware of that and thought/expected that would be more commonplace. They were wrong, it worked out too much and so it's being nerfed.

    It's not a vote, because if it was we'd still have Drain Mana and Blood Fear for example, and using them as a benchmark of how to gauge a talent as OP by the amount of QQ against its nerfing/removal; KJC is holding up pretty strongly as one of those.

    I agree, there are too many self pitying 'If they change this I'll quit' posts which aren't constructive and do exactly as above in highlighting that it is an issue, but also muddy the waters horribly as to what that issue is they're highlighting. GC said he believes players just want to cast while moving, so they did that abberation of a change to Fel Flame so players could cast and move. That's not the issue at hand. The issues we should be focusing on are the real ones:

    1. That too much damage for Affliction is tied to MG channelling, which is a huge impediment to movement and that in turn makes KJC incredibly valuable to that spec.
    2. That the alternative talents have no relation to eachother.
    - AV doesn't do enough to ask players whether it or KJC would offer more.
    - MF is just off on its own somewhere being awesome on some encounters and useless everywhere else.


    By fixing both of these, a nerf to KJC to ensure movement was a 'thing' wouldn't feel nearly so terrible.

  4. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    TyrianFC is doing nothing but trolling at the moment.

    I realize mods frown upon calling out other posters for trolling but it's hindering proper discussion. If you (the troll) refuse to even attempt to enter into reasoned debate then you should stop posting or be banned. The alternative we're experiencing now is having TyrianFC say something like:



    and then seeing 20 people respond to it. It's not helping anyone or furthering anything. We're seeing blues test changes that won't fix much of anything because we can't offer proper feedback or discuss ideas because we're too focused on letting every butthurt non-warlock speak their mind with impunity.

    Here I was thinking that mods were around to foster proper discussion but it seems like they're happy having everyone be polite in response to trolling. We've tried being nice and giving people the benefit of the doubt and it's not working.

    Start handing out warnings for obvious trolling instead, please.[COLOR="red"]
    Just ignore them. The forum allows you to do it. When nobody will ever respond to them the problem will be solved with great satisfaction.

    I received an infraction for calling Jessicka a troll after dozen of unanswered motivation by purpose. No big deal. Ignore the user, i bet you don't pay attention to every "questionable" ideas in your RL.

  5. #725
    Mechagnome Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthan View Post
    Just ignore them.
    Oh man. I didn't even know you could do that!

    Thanks.

    Brighter forum'ing days ahead.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    TyrianFC is doing nothing but trolling at the moment.

    I realize mods frown upon calling out other posters for trolling but it's hindering proper discussion. If you (the troll) refuse to even attempt to enter into reasoned debate then you should stop posting or be banned. The alternative we're experiencing now is having TyrianFC say something like:



    and then seeing 20 people respond to it. It's not helping anyone or furthering anything. We're seeing blues test changes that won't fix much of anything because we can't offer proper feedback or discuss ideas because we're too focused on letting every butthurt non-warlock speak their mind with impunity.

    Here I was thinking that mods were around to foster proper discussion but it seems like they're happy having everyone be polite in response to trolling. We've tried being nice and giving people the benefit of the doubt and it's not working.

    Start handing out warnings for obvious trolling instead, please.
    We do indeed not call out other posters as trolls, as it hinders proper discussion. Be assured we read reports when you report posts and handle them accordingly. If you feel that a thread is not being moderated despite filing reports then I suggest you take it up with Sunshine, one of the administrators, or use the "Contact us" option on the right, at the top of the page.

    We do not allow moderation discussion on the forums, so I suggest we stay off this topic, and stay off the topic of calling out people as trolls. I have not seen anything but differing opinions so far which can be resolved by normal debate and argumentation.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    Oh man. I didn't even know you could do that!

    Thanks.

    Brighter forum'ing days ahead.

    Even if you disagree with people and they infuriate you, it's good that they make you think and organize your own thoughts to dispute them.

    Granted some also make me bang my head against a wall. But my brain needed a good shaking anyway.

  8. #728
    Mmhh, what if KJC is redesigned with a small DPS loss penalty when the caster moves?

    Or a ligher casting speed penalty (like at the beginning, not as punishing, tho).

    Point is, as of now, the talent has the same chances to either get nerfed, overhauled or stay untouched.
    Devs know already, they made the mistake of KJC with just the speed penalty, then they balanced affliction and destro around it (was obvious they did). Now they can't go back with just scrapping away the talent without (imho) strong DPS compensation.

    Giving fillers the chance to cast on move, it works for destruction, but not for affliction. Allowing MG to be cast on the move is as much as not nerfing KJC at all.

    Oh well, i play demonology, i don't really care about that talent anyway :X

  9. #729
    inb4 we have another multidotting "crisis" because they're shifting damage from MG to dots and haunt

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Tara senko View Post
    Ive never played anything but my warlock so ive never thought too much about how a melee can constantly move while casters must stand still most of the time.

    After using kc for the past 6 months it seems very silly that we should be casting a filler spell standing still. I guess my ignorance was bliss, but now that i see the light it's like wtf... Casting while standing still seems so primal at this point in wow.

    They will probably end up giving all casters full movement during filler eventually, but wont be until next expansion.

    At this point in the game it just seems very silly to have to stand still to cast drain soul, for 12 very long seconds
    This did not need it's own thread. Please look for an appropriate thread to post in before making a new one.
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  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Even if you disagree with people and they infuriate you, it's good that they make you think and organize your own thoughts to dispute them.

    Granted some also make me bang my head against a wall. But my brain needed a good shaking anyway.
    This. Also helps discuss potential resolutions and bring out suggestions. Ignoring everyone just leads to it turning into an echo chamber of self pity, which is completely deconstructive and will only serve to bring you down further as everyone agrees the sky is falling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tara senko View Post
    Ive never played anything but my warlock so ive never thought too much about how a melee can constantly move while casters must stand still most of the time.

    After using kc for the past 6 months it seems very silly that we should be casting a filler spell standing still. I guess my ignorance was bliss, but now that i see the light it's like wtf... Casting while standing still seems so primal at this point in wow.

    They will probably end up giving all casters full movement during filler eventually, but wont be until next expansion.

    At this point in the game it just seems very silly to have to stand still to cast drain soul, for 12 very long seconds
    Target switching and "Stack over here" are the bane of melee's existance. Ranged just pivot and keep nuking.

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    This is quite interesting. I agree about malefic grasp + KJC being mandatory ATM. But it shouldn't be that way. One talent can't be/shouldn't be mandatory to make a spec work. Refreshing dot's can be easily done while moving but I agree it's not an option most of the time.

    As for demo and destro, no spells to cast o move? You gotta be kidding me!

    Destro - conflagrate (save 1 charge if you anticipate movement), recast RoF for embers, fel flame (thats 3 spells), SB (below 20%). Not to mention all destro casts (except CB) are fast - for god sake, we're not talking about casting fireball but generally a 1,5 sec cast!

    Demo - ONE WORD, touch of chaos.

    No spells to cast on move???? lololol
    -------
    People keep bringing mages. Yeah, frost has a lot of instants (maybe too many, kinda like demo huh?). Fire has scorch, Mage Bomb and Pyro (oh wait! 3 spells, kinda like Destro!) - AND NO, no fire mages take Icy Floes, no fire mages waste inferno blasts only for movement. And there is arcane, which has a bomb, Barrage and weak fireblast (casting barrage purely for movement can mess with your rotation, severely affecting dps).
    -------
    KJC is stupid. It trivializes what should be (as Blizzard states) a CHALLENGE for casters, movement. There is no "should I cast this right now?". It's always "fuck it! If a sand trap spawns on me, who cares? I lol hard!"
    If you don't believe it, youtube any boss video in a LOCK PoV (hint: he/she is always jumping, moving, which makes much easier to deal with many mechanics).
    -------
    KJC is stupid. If 100% casting on the move has to be implemented, it has to be for everyone as a baseline game mechanic.
    WRT Destro:

    They are planning on nerfing ember generation by RoF so you can put that spell on the back burner.

    They made Fel Flame a 1.5 second base cast time that does not extend dots so you can put that spell on the back burner. Unless they buff the damage significantly (They said they buffed the damage slightly... whatever that means).

    Ok, so then you have incinerate, chaos bolts to cast when standing still. This is fine, really.

    I however, do not understand the RoF ember generation nerf without a compensatory buff to ember generation somewhere else. They're already nerfing movement/AOE capability of Destro through KJC and MF changes. The RoF ember nerf just doesn't make sense and the Fel Flame change/nerf just doesn't make sense.

    Feels like double nerfs, not to mention from a pvp perspective destro is basically ground into the ground (at least on first glance... you'll rarely get a cast off if trained and now you have 2 instants every 12 seconds, then you get kicked on either shadowflame, fire or shadow... and a shitty RoF that generates fewer ember for ember tap). Really the changes wrt destro and PVP look absolutely atrocious.

    Today's patch notes:

    Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

    Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

    Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

    There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

    These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

  13. #733
    The simple fact is the snare didn't offer enough of a downside to make people consider the alternatives, because it really is no downside at all.
    Indeed - Honestly, for movement fights in trivial content I just leave Burning Rush up full time and continue to run around (using KJC) - to effectively stay at full movement speed. I doubt this is intended behaviour, where the 'penalty' for casting during movement is effectively nullified by another talent. It is, however, amazingly fun!

    I think a good course of action for Blizzard is to design ONE warlock spec around having something like KJC as baseline and mould that spec into being a very mobile caster. But not what KJC currently is, giving that honour to the entire class.

    I agree with others saying that this is an odd (for better or worse) time in the expansion to undertake such a potential change.

    As Jessicka has commented, much of this thread at times just devolves into an echochamber. Whereby, anyone who disagrees that KJC should stay is a troll.. evil.. and a bad person etc etc. You cant just blame players though, its only human to sometimes let (blind) passion get in the way of reason. Look at the huge threads on the official forums.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2013-06-18 at 04:48 PM.

  14. #734
    Casters should not be as mobile as melee. This talent should never have made it into the game.

  15. #735
    casters / melee it's an old tired argument, melee have so many gap closers now it's retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    As Jessicka has commented, much of this thread at times just devolves into an echochamber. Whereby, anyone who disagrees that KJC should stay is a troll.. evil.. and a bad person etc etc. You cant just blame players though, its only human to sometimes let (blind) passion get in the way of reason. Look at the huge threads on the official forums.
    Are you even reading what people are saying? They're giving you good tangible answers as to why they think KJC should/shouldn't be changed, reworked or deleted from the game. There is a good amount of varied opinions, it's really only people like you who sound like a broken record. Most of what i've read you saying previous to this last comment (which was actually the only constructive comment i'd read) sounds like a mage saying "LOL UR TALENT THAT I THINK WAS OP GOT NERFED".

    ps gonna change my sig to echo chamber of self pity cuz it's been used quite a few times not only in this thread.
    Last edited by Gohzerlock; 2013-06-18 at 05:06 PM.

  16. #736
    These nerfs are definitely sad for the Warlock class, but overall, they were needed. Being able to move and do 100% of your damage was just unbalanced and overpowererd. "Oh, but we had a slow if we move and DPS!" Yes, but that slow could be completely negated by simply using Burning Rush, so this isn't really a viable argument seeing as how Burning Rush can be used in almost every situation and the damage you take from it is negligible and almost unnoticed by healers. This will GREATLY affect affliction, but most likely you won't see much of a DPS change for top Demonology Warlocks. They are able to manage their fury and plan for movement and use Meta form to deal with it.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugginz View Post
    WRT Destro:

    They are planning on nerfing ember generation by RoF so you can put that spell on the back burner.

    They made Fel Flame a 1.5 second base cast time that does not extend dots so you can put that spell on the back burner. Unless they buff the damage significantly (They said they buffed the damage slightly... whatever that means).

    Ok, so then you have incinerate, chaos bolts to cast when standing still. This is fine, really.

    I however, do not understand the RoF ember generation nerf without a compensatory buff to ember generation somewhere else. They're already nerfing movement/AOE capability of Destro through KJC and MF changes. The RoF ember nerf just doesn't make sense and the Fel Flame change/nerf just doesn't make sense.

    Feels like double nerfs, not to mention from a pvp perspective destro is basically ground into the ground (at least on first glance... you'll rarely get a cast off if trained and now you have 2 instants every 12 seconds, then you get kicked on either shadowflame, fire or shadow... and a shitty RoF that generates fewer ember for ember tap). Really the changes wrt destro and PVP look absolutely atrocious.
    GC's Tweet Today


  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    casters / melee it's an old tired argument, melee have so many gap closers now it's retarded.
    Casters also have a lot more gap makers(?) now too.

  19. #739
    So seems that some change is coming in 1 way shape or form in 5.4. From reading it seems that there gripe is that they dont want us doing our full max dps rotation all of the time but they dont mind us doing dps on the move.

    KJC - maybe remove/reduce the speed reduction

    destro - allow incinerate to be cast whilst moving, allows dps but not max, also have conflag when off cd then and generates secondary resourse in embers. sub 20% you switch to shadowburn anyway which is instant cast.

    demo - shadowbolt, again allows dps on the move whilst not max you generate fury and you have the option of meta for movment aswell.

    Affliction - drainsoul. Allows dps on the move whilst not max. Allows you to generate secondary resource in shards and the excecute would remain allowing you to move. You would also have the option to refresh agony/corruption if needed or get procs.

    this would allow the playstyle to remain the same more or less, allows us to move without massive changes.

  20. #740
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    So much crying over some well deserved nerfs.


    Post more constructively, please.
    Last edited by xskarma; 2013-06-18 at 05:56 PM.

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