View Poll Results: Do you think Bliz will actually nerf KJC?

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  • Yes

    576 74.32%
  • No

    199 25.68%
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  1. #741
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    So much crying over some well deserved nerfs.

    Post of the year here folks? Come back with any sort of eveidence that backs that up and you will be the first.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 12:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinetick View Post
    Casters also have a lot more gap makers(?) now too.

    Like what? A marker on the ground that lets people know whre you are going and a gateway that can be killed. Please link the other gap makers that have come into the game?

  2. #742
    I actually felt compelled to register so I could comment on this topic here since the discussion is so thoughtful.

    I really do not understand the need for Blizzard to try to go about these changes in such a roundabout way. The way I see it, if allowing filler spells to be cast on the move is unacceptable to the devs, and their (previously stated) desire is to avoid large sweeping class/play changes, then why not just make a minor change to current/live KJC?

    Kil'jaeden's Cunning Warlock - LvL 90 Talent
    You can cast and channel while moving, but each cast reduces your movement speed by 15% for 6 sec.

    With no limit to the number of stacks, they would just keep building up until the player is rooted in place (aka a turret) for the duration of the debuff.

    This way, Warlocks can continue casting their spells while moving but the stacking debuff will put a limit on the number of consecutive spells cast. The debuff percentage could be adjusted to suit the desired limit. (e.g. 20% slow to make the limit 5-6 casts) Remaining Passive, it would give players the freedom to choose when and where to use it but still imposes limits. If you use it "too much" then you will be stuck in place for some time and have to deal with the consequences. Given the importance of positioning and movement in current encounters, it could easily be fatal. The debuff duration could even be adjusted/lengthened. Also, it should bypass Burning Rush.

    What do you all think? This gives players the power to "control their own destiny" while still rewarding smart use of standing still to cast. It is a simple change that doesn't involve any new mechanics and could be applied with a hotfix.
    Last edited by keefbeef; 2013-06-18 at 05:59 PM.

  3. #743
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    It's not a bad idea Keefbeef, but it won't get implemented.

    Here's the deal, and this has been the deal lately with Greg and the developers.

    They keep adding in things, then taking them out.

    They had Aspect of the Fox which allowed hunters to cast Steady Shot, etc on the run with a significant damage reduction penalty. It was still useful when you were on the move. So then they said "Well we don't want hunters to stance dance because it favours people who know how to write macros". So they did away with Aspect of the Fox and added casting steady shot/aimed shot to hunters as a baseline ability.

    Then, in 5.0/5.1 KJC was implemented with a 20% reduced cast time (or whatever it was) and it was still relatively good, but not always the best. Then they did away with the cast time snare and put a movement snare in for 5.2, 5.3. Fine.

    Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure they allowed Shammys to glyph some spell so that they could cast on the move.

    Overall they have continued to allow some classes to cast and move and not others (Boomkins, spriests and mages mostly). Why they would ever think that this is a good idea, I have no idea.

    So now they want to go back to the model of "Casters shouldn't be able to move and cast without a DMG penalty". Then why implement the 5.2 changes at all???

    Even so, then why fiddle with Mannoroth's Fury?

    With these changes all I see is a:

    Complete and utter destruction of destro lock PVP utility.

    Mainly a massive Destro lock PVE nerf (MF increases only *some* spells... incinerate, immolate and conflag appear not to be impacted by the AOE radius? Am I reading the patch notes wrong? It appears that only RoF gets the 100% dmg buff and the radius increase).

    Add to this fewer ember generation by RoF. This has to be compensated by increased ember generation somewhere else, but how? All the spells generate embers a 1 bit per tick and 2 per crit. Is it going to be 2/3 now?? How is this going to be balanced?

    I'm not totally against the movement while casting penalty, however it seems like they're really going overboard. I used to play a spriest and the moniker of a good spriest was the way that you moved through your GCDs to position yourself. However, this was in CATA/WOTLK and the encounters had, in general, much less movement.

  4. #744
    Immolate could be more consistent with awarding embers.

    I really don't see why they don't just give RoF the same glyph they gave to HoG.

    People clearly like the spell. They are writing code to increase the particle density they like it so much.

  5. #745
    Personally I don't like the new changes much better than the castable on the move Haunt.

    I get it that PTR is their petri dish and all but their starting point is so far away from what the class needs, it's annoying! Not to mention that they introduce more problems instead of solving the ones they create by making us susceptible to double school lockout with the cast time on green Searing Pain (i.e. Fel Flame).

    An idea would be to swap the penalty of KJC to consuming our secondary resource as a band-aid solution till the end of the expansion and then figure out what they want to do with the class:

    Affliction:
    So SB:MG and SBrain Soul allow them to be chaneled while moving. This means that moving is still a DPS loss albeit not as detrimental as without any form of ability to DPS while moving.

    Destro (this has been said already by someone else in this thread):
    Backdraft stacks allow spells they affect to be cast on the move (so 1 stack for incinerate and 3 for CB).

    Demo (the least exciting since Demo is the least affected):
    MC charges allow you to either cast the buffed version of SF OR cast a Shadow Bolt while moving.


    I believe changes along the above lines, while not optimal are a valid middle ground (actually more towards the nerfy side but whatever). We still get to cast our spells on the move if we really must (trinket, meta procs) but at the cost of our secondary source/buffs, so at the cost of potential DPS.

    Moreover we will need a glyph for Fel Flame which removes the dot refresh component in return for a 2.5X crit multiplier on the spell (can be changed to 2.2 -2.4 for balance). Of course it remains instant and with a reduced mana cost.

    AV is completely scrapped from the game and instead we get something else (perhaps mobility based). An idea that came to me that could compensate the loss of KJC is for a talent (it is last tier keep in mind) that would replace Demonic Circle placement/teleport with a single reticule spell. So imagine it as a reticule-targeted blink (or a heroic leap-blink crossover), perhaps with a slightly lower cooldown (2-4 secs lower) or 2 regenerating charges.

    MF retains the passive as is on live and the proposed new version becomes an active version of the spell (the 15/90 version). The passive is disabled while the active is on cooldown. So now you have some decision making to do instead of passively AoEing like crazy. You can go for a short burst of +100% AoE but loose the range for the remaining 90 seconds or you can keep the passive bonus (which has no +dmg buff).
    Last edited by Obikwan; 2013-06-18 at 10:29 PM.
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  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    So much crying over some well deserved nerfs.


    Post more constructively, please.
    You mean like this ? Youtube channel named: [MOD SNIP]
    [The video uploaded a couple hours ago named KJC nerfs. I can not post the link since this is my first post.]

    Greetings
    Last edited by xskarma; 2013-06-19 at 01:23 AM.

  7. #747
    Super Moderator xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadwingduck View Post
    You mean like this ? Youtube channel named: [MOD SNIP]
    [The video uploaded a couple hours ago named KJC nerfs. I can not post the link since this is my first post.]

    Greetings
    No, cause linking youtube channels is just helping them advertise their youtube channel, which we don't allow.

    When I put in that mod edit to post more constructively I meant people should post some argumentation about WHY they feel KJC is fine to be changed. Simply stating it's well deserved doesn't cut it. And neither does simply linking a video of something. Linking a helpful or enlightening video is fine, but there needs to be a constructive post around it to explain why you feel this way, and what the contents of the video are. The video should be there as further explanation, not as the only thing in your post.
    Attack the Argument, not the Person ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  8. #748
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Post of the year here folks? Come back with any sort of eveidence that backs that up and you will be the first.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 12:48 PM ----------




    Like what? A marker on the ground that lets people know whre you are going and a gateway that can be killed. Please link the other gap makers that have come into the game?
    Uh, yeah. Because planting melee at your portal is really efficient. And that's totally what happens. /sarcasm

    Say what you want but Demonic Portal is nothing short of amazing in pvp. And excellent gap maker/escape/LoS.

  9. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Post of the year here folks? Come back with any sort of evidence that backs that up and you will be the first.
    Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?
    Sure. Go ahead. Tell us why KJC is the reason lock is overpowered. If not, then you're still wrong.

  11. #751
    The Patient Furtylol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?
    I'd love to hear why KJC is the reason locks are a strong class right now. It's got to be the movement casting and not soul leech, fel armor, and a wide array of strong personal cooldowns.

    Sure KJC is a problem child in it's current iteration and everyone should have seen a nerf coming, but let's not pretend like their proposed solution is a good one.

  12. #752
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?
    That Warlocks are a strong class is not in dispute. Whether Warlocks should have to relearn their entire play style in the last major patch of an expansion because knee-jerk talent changes trump stated design goals? That's what we're debating.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  13. #753
    Herald of the Titans nocturnus's Avatar
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    I haven't played my warlock, or wow for that matter for quite a while. I did however experience a few weeks of KJC's passive ability and let me tell you, it made the class (and game) more fun to play. It didn't make warlocks powerful beyond the point of balance and anyone claiming this, would do well to provide proof first.

    Now I wonder, why would the devs, remove (change) a talent that increases the fun-factor without causing imbalance? The only reason I can come up with is because it is in conflict with how they decided casters should play: Static during a (priority) rotation. (pillar fearing can easily be fixed in other ways).

    It's a shame actually, for I thought this was the first step towards more compelling and active gameplay which would eventually be implemented across the board. I was wrong.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2013-06-19 at 08:02 AM.

  14. #754
    At least you know a nerf is well targeted when it causes so much uproar

  15. #755
    although kj has been garbage like that,affi will choose kj 100%,as with destro choose mf,as AV is too gaebage to be chose.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?
    We're not so strong that other classes can't keep up or outdo us on the vast majority of fights, the few fights where we DO outperform everyone else are fights like Council where we're abusing either the SS bug or Lei'shen's trinket, not fights where it's due to KJC.

    So yes, please provide some evidence as to what fight KJC is resulting in warlocks being significantly better than other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    At least you know a nerf is well targeted when it causes so much uproar
    Asinine, strawman statement, please try to be constructive.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2013-06-19 at 08:17 AM.

  17. #757
    Herald of the Titans nocturnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Asinine, strawman statement, please try to be constructive.
    That would be like asking a donkey to contribute intellectually.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    So much crying over some well deserved nerfs.


    Post more constructively, please.
    now we just need a UVLS nerf and we're set.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    We're not so strong that other classes can't keep up or outdo us on the vast majority of fights, the few fights where we DO outperform everyone else are fights like Council where we're abusing either the SS bug or Lei'shen's trinket, not fights where it's due to KJC.

    So yes, please provide some evidence as to what fight KJC is resulting in warlocks being significantly better than other classes.

    Asinine, strawman statement, please try to be constructive.
    You don't get it. It's not about that KjC is the reason we are powerful and it's not. They don't like us being able to do full rotation while moving. If it nerfs our damage little bit, then it's good side effect of the change because we do pretty good DPS. It has also something to do with encounter designs. If all classes were able to do full rotations while moving then whats the point having to move? We were very blessed this tier to be able to play all 3 specs and be competitive(or completely destroy everyone) in DPS. Maybe this change will kill affliction, maybe not, depends how they compensate for KjC nerf. Last tier affliction was the only viable spec. Is it ideal that every spec has their uses in different situations, Yes. It's just very unlikely that every class has every spec "viable" and not far behind others.

    So why should KjC stay? It all comes down to how much damage we lose when moving. If affliction is still topping meters, I do not see a problem with this. If your argument is that "Shamans and hunters can cast while moving". So then the question is: Do you want to cast while moving and do worse DPS than those classes that lose a lot of DPS while moving? If your answer is Yes, then you have 3 options: 1) Reroll 2) Quit the game 3) Quit bitching

    If the argument is that "why can't moving while casting be our niche also?" Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. The less mobile casters there are the better encounter designs are. Look at Horridon heroic for example. We are destroying everyone in the damage meters while we can click our pet to attack the Dino, sure we will have to keep it in check so it doesn't go too far and despawn. Sure Hunters can do the same and Spriests can dot the dino and Apparation knocks it back. But for mages the dino is extremely pain in the ass. If all classes could deal with dino like we could, then what is the point to design mechanic like that?

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    <snip>
    I'd argue you're the one that doesn't seem to get it, there's a difference between saying "I don't think we should be able to cast and move" and saying "KJC is OP and needs nerving". You're argument doesn't hinge on whether KJC is overpowered or not, my post was directed at someone claiming it was.

    I'm fine with KJC going and don't like the talent either, but I don't think nerfing it completely, in the last tier of an expansion, is the right step to be taking. Blizzard currently seem like they're scrambling JUST to sort out the nasty connotations that removing KJC will have with affliction in pve (since earlier nerfs this expansion BECAUSE we had KJC and the growing reliance on RPPM proc play / MG uptime / fel flame being in a bad spot before the recent change), let alone pvp.

    Meanwhile the elephant in the room is our lvl 90 talent tier, the entire thing is a mess, it needs redesigning from the ground up, it goes at odds with the entire design of the talent tier (that they should be hard choices, having 1 situational talent, 1 useless talent and 1 good talent, all serving different purposes completely foils that, look at all of our other talent tiers, they fit similar purposes, ergo, work) - at the moment they're nerfing everything down because they're unhappy with everyone choosing the same talent, still ignoring AV, despite it being garbage - it's not going to be picked next tier.

    I don't believe blizzard has the time to handle this right now, I think a minor nerf to KJC (filler only), then scrapping the entire thing NEXT expansion would be a better move. I feel afflictions core rotation and all of our level 90 talents need some serious reworking, not a bit of tinkering with which is all they seem to have time for between tiers and is resulting in either things like haunt being cast on the move, or at least not enough time to think up an adequate solution, which is stupid and doesn't fix the problem, or fel flame having a cast time, which just brings more problems.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2013-06-19 at 10:16 AM.

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