5.4 KJC changes.

[Vulcanasm]

Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?

That Warlocks are a strong class is not in dispute. Whether Warlocks should have to relearn their entire play style in the last major patch of an expansion because knee-jerk talent changes trump stated design goals? That's what we're debating.

[nocturnus]

I haven't played my warlock, or wow for that matter for quite a while. I did however experience a few weeks of KJC's passive ability and let me tell you, it made the class (and game) more fun to play. It didn't make warlocks powerful beyond the point of balance and anyone claiming this, would do well to provide proof first.

Now I wonder, why would the devs, remove (change) a talent that increases the fun-factor without causing imbalance? The only reason I can come up with is because it is in conflict with how they decided casters should play: Static during a (priority) rotation. (pillar fearing can easily be fixed in other ways).

It's a shame actually, for I thought this was the first step towards more compelling and active gameplay which would eventually be implemented across the board. I was wrong.

[shinewaylee]

although kj has been garbage like that,affi will choose kj 100%,as with destro choose mf,as AV is too gaebage to be chose.

[Deleted]

Do I really need to provide evidence on warlocks on how strong we are?

We're not so strong that other classes can't keep up or outdo us on the vast majority of fights, the few fights where we DO outperform everyone else are fights like Council where we're abusing either the SS bug or Lei'shen's trinket, not fights where it's due to KJC.

So yes, please provide some evidence as to what fight KJC is resulting in warlocks being significantly better than other classes.

At least you know a nerf is well targeted when it causes so much uproar

Asinine, strawman statement, please try to be constructive.

[nocturnus]

Asinine, strawman statement, please try to be constructive.

That would be like asking a donkey to contribute intellectually.

[Deleted]

So much crying over some well deserved nerfs.


Post more constructively, please.

now we just need a UVLS nerf and we're set.

[Deleted]

We're not so strong that other classes can't keep up or outdo us on the vast majority of fights, the few fights where we DO outperform everyone else are fights like Council where we're abusing either the SS bug or Lei'shen's trinket, not fights where it's due to KJC.

So yes, please provide some evidence as to what fight KJC is resulting in warlocks being significantly better than other classes.

Asinine, strawman statement, please try to be constructive.

You don't get it. It's not about that KjC is the reason we are powerful and it's not. They don't like us being able to do full rotation while moving. If it nerfs our damage little bit, then it's good side effect of the change because we do pretty good DPS. It has also something to do with encounter designs. If all classes were able to do full rotations while moving then whats the point having to move? We were very blessed this tier to be able to play all 3 specs and be competitive(or completely destroy everyone) in DPS. Maybe this change will kill affliction, maybe not, depends how they compensate for KjC nerf. Last tier affliction was the only viable spec. Is it ideal that every spec has their uses in different situations, Yes. It's just very unlikely that every class has every spec "viable" and not far behind others.

So why should KjC stay? It all comes down to how much damage we lose when moving. If affliction is still topping meters, I do not see a problem with this. If your argument is that "Shamans and hunters can cast while moving". So then the question is: Do you want to cast while moving and do worse DPS than those classes that lose a lot of DPS while moving? If your answer is Yes, then you have 3 options: 1) Reroll 2) Quit the game 3) Quit bitching

If the argument is that "why can't moving while casting be our niche also?" Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. The less mobile casters there are the better encounter designs are. Look at Horridon heroic for example. We are destroying everyone in the damage meters while we can click our pet to attack the Dino, sure we will have to keep it in check so it doesn't go too far and despawn. Sure Hunters can do the same and Spriests can dot the dino and Apparation knocks it back. But for mages the dino is extremely pain in the ass. If all classes could deal with dino like we could, then what is the point to design mechanic like that?

[Deleted]

<snip>

I'd argue you're the one that doesn't seem to get it, there's a difference between saying "I don't think we should be able to cast and move" and saying "KJC is OP and needs nerving". You're argument doesn't hinge on whether KJC is overpowered or not, my post was directed at someone claiming it was.

I'm fine with KJC going and don't like the talent either, but I don't think nerfing it completely, in the last tier of an expansion, is the right step to be taking. Blizzard currently seem like they're scrambling JUST to sort out the nasty connotations that removing KJC will have with affliction in pve (since earlier nerfs this expansion BECAUSE we had KJC and the growing reliance on RPPM proc play / MG uptime / fel flame being in a bad spot before the recent change), let alone pvp.

Meanwhile the elephant in the room is our lvl 90 talent tier, the entire thing is a mess, it needs redesigning from the ground up, it goes at odds with the entire design of the talent tier (that they should be hard choices, having 1 situational talent, 1 useless talent and 1 good talent, all serving different purposes completely foils that, look at all of our other talent tiers, they fit similar purposes, ergo, work) - at the moment they're nerfing everything down because they're unhappy with everyone choosing the same talent, still ignoring AV, despite it being garbage - it's not going to be picked next tier.

I don't believe blizzard has the time to handle this right now, I think a minor nerf to KJC (filler only), then scrapping the entire thing NEXT expansion would be a better move. I feel afflictions core rotation and all of our level 90 talents need some serious reworking, not a bit of tinkering with which is all they seem to have time for between tiers and is resulting in either things like haunt being cast on the move, or at least not enough time to think up an adequate solution, which is stupid and doesn't fix the problem, or fel flame having a cast time, which just brings more problems.

[Kagecamia]

I don't believe blizzard has the time to handle this right now, I think a minor nerf to KJC (filler only), then scrapping the entire thing NEXT expansion would be a better move. I feel afflictions core rotation and all of our level 90 talents need some serious reworking, not a bit of tinkering with which is all they seem to have time for between tiers and is resulting in either things like haunt being cast on the move, or at least not enough time to think up an adequate solution, which is stupid and doesn't fix the problem, or fel flame having a cast time, which just brings more problems.

Instead of performing delicate surgery on a class when it comes to nerfs and buffs, Blizz makes the end result look like a hack and slash horror movie that would the main guy in SAW blush.

It does seem that blizz is trying to defend their actions when they have hardly any claims and are really just pulling stuff out of their ass.

[TyrianFC]

Instead of performing delicate surgery on a class when it comes to nerfs and buffs, Blizz makes the end result look like a hack and slash horror movie that would the main guy in SAW blush.

What? They have made proposed changes on the ptr at the start of a lengthy ptr cycle. That sounds like the appropriate time and place to perform 'delicate surgery' to me.

[Bimloc]

There is a much easier fix for this.

It seems that most people feel KJC is OP because you can negate the snare by using Burning Rush. So then why not just make the snare debuff cancel the Burning Rush buff. So outside of casting and moving you can use Burning Rush as normal. If you want to run and cast at the same time you will not be able to use Burning Rush.

Then they can leave everything else alone and not try to re balance our spell and most probably our Stat Weights. Simple, Easy, done...

[Count Zero]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...unning-update/

"In a future PTR build, Kil'Jaeden's Cunning will once again be a passive effect. Selecting it will allow the Warlock to cast Malefic Grasp, Shadow Bolt, and Incinerate while moving. There is no penalty, so you'll be able to move at full speed.

We still feel that the 5.3 version of Kil'Jaeden's Cunning isn't working out, but we don't want to "nerf fun" either. It's clear that many Warlocks simply enjoy the feel of being able to cast on the move, and we'd like to be able to preserve as much of that feeling if possible."

Holy sheet

[Floopa]

Cry and ye shall receive. Literally confused at this. KJC is really bloody overpowered > they fix it > warlocks cry > so they buff the original version.

what.

[Resentful]

They reverted the nerf ALL JOICE :O actually they fucking buffed it hard haha.

[Deleted]

Cry and ye shall receive. Literally confused at this. KJC is really bloody overpowered > they fix it > warlocks cry > so they buff the original version.

what.

Yeah, no.

Go read the wording of the current version of KJC and then post something here.

Please, don't troll.

[Count Zero]

Cry and ye shall receive. Literally confused at this. KJC is really bloody overpowered > they fix it > warlocks cry > so they buff the original version.

what.

Please post links to some fights on Raidbots (which parses real encounters from World of Logs) where you can irrefutably argue that KJC (rather than multidotting) is why Warlocks dominate the charts.

We'll wait.

[Floopa]

Please post links to some fights on Raidbots (which parses real encounters from World of Logs) where you can irrefutably argue that KJC (rather than multidotting) is why Warlocks dominate the charts.

We'll wait.

Well it's a mixture of things:

> Being able to do 100% of your DPS all the time
> Having insane survivability
> Having insane scaling with certain items (UVLS)
> Having insane raid utility (portals, portals, portals and a CR/HS)

Most of it stems down to the fact you're able to do 100% of your DPS all the time. If UVLS procs for a Shadow Priest while they're moving, and are unable to stop moving, they gain very little benefit. Not so for Warlocks.

[Cebel]

" In a future PTR build, Kil'Jaeden's Cunning will once again be a passive effect. Selecting it will allow the Warlock to cast Malefic Grasp, Shadow Bolt, and Incinerate while moving. There is no penalty, so you'll be able to move at full speed. " - Lore 2013

TIL; If you bitch and moan enough, you get your way. Thanks for the lesson blizzard!

[kendro1200]

Cry and ye shall receive. Literally confused at this. KJC is really bloody overpowered > they fix it > warlocks cry > so they buff the original version.

what.

It wasn't overpowered, stop making ignorant statements and pushing them out as fact.


The new propose form of KJC is an interesting change, and I actually like it. Filler on the move is how it should be and should have been. This helps in pvp, as it means you have to stop to cast something big, but also doesn't leave you permanently stranded without burning rush. I hate the hoops they went through to get to this point, but at least the community kept them on their toes to make sure they reached this point. Good job everyone, but remember to stay vigilant, 5.4 isn't going live yet.

Well it's a mixture of things:

> Being able to do 100% of your DPS all the time
> Having insane survivability
> Having insane scaling with certain items (UVLS)
> Having insane raid utility (portals, portals, portals and a CR/HS)

Most of it stems down to the fact you're able to do 100% of your DPS all the time. If UVLS procs for a Shadow Priest while they're moving, and are unable to stop moving, they gain very little benefit. Not so for Warlocks.

UVLS (I think you're complaining particularly about demo) is dev oversight. UVLS shouldn't have gone live as it currently was, not with the dot system as it is. Blizz never seems to learn though with things that can buff dots to insane situations. The "survivability" is a compensate for the fact that aff and demo have to sacrifice health to sustain their dps. If warlocks didn't have the survivability that they had they'd be mana sinks for average -> better than average dps (ignoring broken gimmicks).
As for portals, blame mages, spriests and boomkins, but mostly mages. Mages got cool raid toys for two expansions, then mages, spriests and boomkins fought over our one cool raid toy in three expansions and got it taken away from us. So we got a cool thematic tool that we shouldn't have gotten, but I'm glad we did, because it's fun.

I know that you want to vent your frustration about another class working differently than yours, but please don't rage about a change that could have decimated a class. Look carefully at actual logs for fights, and you'll see that warlocks haven't been doing as well as they have because they can cast on the move, they've been doing what they can because they've been abusing certain fight mechanics with procs. There is only one fight where if moving while keeping up a full rotation could be OP it would be blatantly obvious, and on that fight it is proven that it's not.

[Count Zero]

Well it's a mixture of things:

> Being able to do 100% of your DPS all the time
> Having insane survivability
> Having insane scaling with certain items (UVLS)
> Having insane raid utility (portals, portals, portals and a CR/HS)

Most of it stems down to the fact you're able to do 100% of your DPS all the time. If UVLS procs for a Shadow Priest while they're moving, and are unable to stop moving, they gain very little benefit. Not so for Warlocks.

These thoughts are all well and good in theory, but can you prove that in practice they make us overpowered in real encounters ?

Survivability is ridic, granted. I think any look at WoL will show Warlocks taking much less damage than anyone else. That's provable. But being able to do 100% dps all the time ... again, please post some proof that KJC results in us having a significant dps advantage over everyone else.