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  1. #981
    Just messed around on the ptr, the DoC buff after you cast HT lasts 30 sec so you have 30 sec to get into an eclipse before you have to cast HT again but if you get to an eclipse with that buff up it goes away and your eclipse gets another 25% bonus to it for as long as that eclipse is up. So if you want pretty much indefinitely.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I honestly can't believe there is this many people opposed to casting healing touch rotationally. A lot of fights have consistent damage and yes, of course a lot of the healing touches will be overheal, but if you're not lazy you don't HT yourself but someone with a health deficit, usually the tank.

    It's a lot more to manage than HoTW, and because of that it should be a higher damage gain. As a rough rule of thumb Blizzard has generally said or gone with the idea that active talents/cds/spells, when used properly should outperform passives. Most of all this makes all 3 talents good choices and appropriate in different situations.

    Additionally, I would think many of you have been playing balance all expansion and should be a little bored of the default rotation, especially with INC + HoTW atm. I welcome the change as new flavor and it feels really hybrid-like. The only thing slightly annoying to manage is who to heal with HT.

    The biggest issue with DoC is that treants don't work, which is another problem still with treants themselves (yay for guardian pet AI and scaling). They don't benefit from mastery/eclipse, which is just huge unless they constantly receive massive base damage buffs to adjust for stat inflation.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How so? you cast one HT prior to entering a new eclipse. One more spell to cast. Not like there are a lot of balance druid "rotational" spells atm anyway.

    You guys also realize a lot of ferals have been doing this for most of the expansion right? And their rotation without DoC already has much more depth than balance. Only difference is sometimes we have to hard cast a few (which is trivial especially with meta uptime atm and 10289 haste bp)
    predators swiftness gives an instant healing touch , so ur comment about ferals doing this is completely absurd. Its not good game design when a hybrid needs to cast a heal to do more damage , and even then ? does a shadow priest need to cast a heal to do damage ? does an ele shaman ? does a ret pally ? its not fair , its poor design , plus , it only buffs healing touch , a 2.2 sec cast which frankly heals for about 60-80k in arena's , and if u arent getting trained as a moonkin , and u even get this heal off , most ppl do instant hits for 60-80k , so its pretty worthless. Im confused about blizzards intention of this ?

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by Batmoonn View Post
    predators swiftness gives an instant healing touch , so ur comment about ferals doing this is completely absurd. Its not good game design when a hybrid needs to cast a heal to do more damage , and even then ? does a shadow priest need to cast a heal to do damage ? does an ele shaman ? does a ret pally ? its not fair , its poor design , plus , it only buffs healing touch , a 2.2 sec cast which frankly heals for about 60-80k in arena's , and if u arent getting trained as a moonkin , and u even get this heal off , most ppl do instant hits for 60-80k , so its pretty worthless. Im confused about blizzards intention of this ?
    That makes it even better then according to your logic. It's a unique playstyle to druid. It's not a poor design people are just ridiculously resistant to change, especially in this thread. Would you prefer the only option be hotw once again?

    Hybrids healing tough concept for ppl to grasp as well I guess.

    And if you're that reluctant to change or try something new it's not the only option you have 2 others.

  4. #984
    id rather it buff rejuvenation and healing touch by 20%, maybe change it up a little and add "also makes wrath starfire and starsurge castable while moving" , without having to heal. just a flat out dps and healing increase. U either get a 6 min cd that does insane healing , or a minor buff to healing consistently. Anything is better than hardcasting healing touch. Its like how mages dont enjoy having to use evocate to get the 1 min cd buff of damage , its DAMAGE per second , means every gcd u use , u shud be doing damage.

  5. #985
    Yeah there's nothing hard about DOC. When you're near eclipse and don't have a starsurge proc squeeze in one healing touch.

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by Batmoonn View Post
    id rather it buff rejuvenation and healing touch by 20%, maybe change it up a little and add "also makes wrath starfire and starsurge castable while moving" , without having to heal. just a flat out dps and healing increase. U either get a 6 min cd that does insane healing , or a minor buff to healing consistently. Anything is better than hardcasting healing touch. Its like how mages dont enjoy having to use evocate to get the 1 min cd buff of damage , its DAMAGE per second , means every gcd u use , u shud be doing damage.
    I'd also like a spell that one shot everyone around me in a 100 yard radius that was off the gcd but that's OP and so is your suggestion...

    Idk how many times developers need to reiterate this idea, but clearly you don't understand that casting while moving isn't good for the game. Also don't seem to get the idea of a hybrid so I'd suggest trying out a mage so you don't have to heal, since healing and dpsing just makes everyone so mad these days.
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-08-29 at 05:14 AM.

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I'd also like a spell that one shot everyone around me in a 100 yard radius that was off the gcd but that's OP and so is your suggestion...

    Idk how many times developers need to reiterate this idea, but clearly you don't understand that casting while moving isn't good for the game.

    healing touch buff is pretty strong as it is for pvp 100k heal no big deal
    It doesnt heal 100k , even with DOC its around 60-80k , for a 2.2 sec cast , i think thats reasonable. Also i kno casting while moving isnt good for the game , so why dont they just remove it ? right now ? literally hotfix it OUT of the game ? for every class ? y dont they do that friend ? if they believe its not good for the game , if they want balance , wudnt u just get rid of it straight away ? seeing as its not good for the game ?

  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by Batmoonn View Post
    It doesnt heal 100k , even with DOC its around 60-80k , for a 2.2 sec cast , i think thats reasonable. Also i kno casting while moving isnt good for the game , so why dont they just remove it ? right now ? literally hotfix it OUT of the game ? for every class ? y dont they do that friend ? if they believe its not good for the game , if they want balance , wudnt u just get rid of it straight away ? seeing as its not good for the game ?
    because it's an extremely weak filler for 2 classes that allows them to cast something when they move. They can't cast core spells while moving and it's extremely limited. Balance has multiple instant cast spells to use and yes, one of the classes weaknesses is movement damage, but only if it's single target movement.

    You're suggestion is clearly over the top and I have a hard time believing that you're not trolling to want all core damage spells castable while moving.

    t90 druid dealing with an equlibrium or interaction between damage and healing for all 4 specs. HotW allows you to completely stop doing damage and basically double as a slightly weaker healer for 45s. Vigil converts damage to healing. Why would DoC allow casting while moving it makes 0 sense in that tier? Tier 90 solidifies druids' position as a hybrid by strengthening our damage and healing, and making them interact with each other. None of your suggestions work with that or aren't completely overpowered.

  9. #989
    Maybe I'm completely wrong, but if we going collect more haste for the next breakpoint, casting Healing Touch would be faster?
    Since the multidotting is nerfing, shouldn't we going for more haste? More benefit on casthing HT while multidotting?

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Batmoonn View Post
    It doesnt heal 100k , even with DOC its around 60-80k , for a 2.2 sec cast , i think thats reasonable. Also i kno casting while moving isnt good for the game , so why dont they just remove it ? right now ? literally hotfix it OUT of the game ? for every class ? y dont they do that friend ? if they believe its not good for the game , if they want balance , wudnt u just get rid of it straight away ? seeing as its not good for the game ?
    My healing touch heals for 135k non crit and only takes 1,94 seconds to cast, which is shorter than my starfire cast. With NG and meta proc, It should be running up to the GCD.

    One HT cast, every what? 15 seconds to keep DoC buff up for every eclipse is perfectly manageable, especially if you combine it with the fact that NS will be baseline next patch and then one of every 4 HT should be instant cast. Working the healing spell into the rotation isn't too much work, but for most it'll take some time getting used to getting to use those HTs effectively and heal people with rather than spam it on yourself.
    Bear in mind that DoC probably won't be the pvp talent, not by far. Ferals don't use it either atm for pvp because HotW is just stronger in that scenario. But for PvE, DoC for balance is a nice power. Combine this with incarnation, CA and the increasing relative value of mastery in next tier,, it'll make this talent very useful. If it is a flat bonus dmg %, then my 500k starsurges will now hit for 625k in eclipse, and that is just one spell cast. Spending one global cooldown to empower our eclipsed dots, Next 4-6 casts in eclipse is strong, don't under estimate that.
    The damage bonus will highly outweigh the slightly longer rotation.

    What I would kind of like that they perhaps have it interact with Cenarion Ward as well, since that talent is highly underrepresented to my taste. I like the idea of it, but the others are just flat out stronger. One would imagine that'd buff up the power of DoC even more since CW is an instant cast with a 30 second CD, thus only forcing us to hardcast one healing touch every minute.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aoshi View Post
    Maybe I'm completely wrong, but if we going collect more haste for the next breakpoint, casting Healing Touch would be faster?
    Since the multidotting is nerfing, shouldn't we going for more haste? More benefit on casthing HT while multidotting?
    No point really since post 10296 haste, our instant casts will be equal to the GCD, so you'd see limited benefit from going for the next breakpoint 15318. Also, currently our wrath is already slightly under the GCD cap when we have Meta and NG up, iirc, so we'd get less benefit out of that as well. The only thing that it'll boost up is stronger burst during CA and faster Lunar -> solar cycles, but aside from that, not really.
    Last edited by Rocketbear; 2013-08-29 at 08:42 AM.
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  11. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batmoonn View Post
    id rather it buff rejuvenation and healing touch by 20%, maybe change it up a little and add "also makes wrath starfire and starsurge castable while moving" , without having to heal. just a flat out dps and healing increase. U either get a 6 min cd that does insane healing , or a minor buff to healing consistently. Anything is better than hardcasting healing touch. Its like how mages dont enjoy having to use evocate to get the 1 min cd buff of damage , its DAMAGE per second , means every gcd u use , u shud be doing damage.
    It would be interesting, if DoC was like: after SS proc landed and critted, you can cast starfire or wrath or ss while moving, casting any instant damaging spell clears this buff.

  12. #992
    To all the people crying for "cast while moving" effects: Seriously, just stop trying to develop this game Blizzard. I used to be on the "give me more movement DPS" bandwagon and promptly left it 2 patches ago. Lets look at all our core spells which are used very often -- no cast time:
    - Moonfire
    - Sunfire
    - Starfall
    - Starsurge

    Guess what good players do about movement? -> They learn to delay SS, Starfall, MF and SnF slightly (mostly MF and SnF), to lessen the penalty of movement.

    Oh wait! I need to move, but I need to HT before I can use this SS to proc Eclipse? LOL NATURE'S SWIFTNESS.

    It's like magic. Some people believe, others just haven't seen good magic yet.

    Blizzard has no intention of adding more cast-while-moving mechanics to this game. In fact, they're going to gut most of it in 5.4. I wouldn't be surprised if they completely did away with passive cast-while-moving effects. Spiritwalker's Grace is fine (15sec, 3min CD), because it's not passive -- KJC. This game has too many mechanics and changing something has too large an impact on other aspects. Stop trying to get the best of everything. No one ever felt good playing a game for 9 years if they ran around with /godmode active. I'm positive you never enjoyed cheating through a game as much as you did winning legitimately.

    Back on topic:
    If you don't want to cast DOC twice per Eclipse cycle, then pick up HOTW. It's like people need to be told how to play a damn game. It's a game, play as you want. If you want to be optimal, learn the optimal playstyle. If you want to use DOC, use DOC. If you don't want to use DOC, don't use DOC. Blizzard gives you options. You make the choices. I'm not even raiding progression in 5.4 and it feels like I've done more than my share of "helping the raiding community." Why don't the people who don't like DOC simply say why they don't like it? Seriously now, good feedback gets noticed. Give good feedback to theorycrafters and Blizzard alike, and we're going to criticize it for all its worth. You don't like casting HT once per Eclipse? Fine, but you're really not giving a reason as to why you dislike it. Because it feels clunky? What does "clunky" mean to you? Good feedback, or lurk more.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2013-08-29 at 09:37 AM.

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    To all the people crying for "cast while moving" effects: Seriously, just stop trying to develop this game Blizzard. I used to be on the "give me more movement DPS" bandwagon and promptly left it 2 patches ago. Lets look at all our core spells which are used very often -- no cast time:
    - Moonfire
    - Sunfire
    - Starfall
    - Starsurge

    Guess what good players do about movement? -> They learn to delay SS, Starfall, MF and SnF slightly (mostly MF and SnF), to lessen the penalty of movement.

    Oh wait! I need to move, but I need to HT before I can use this SS to proc Eclipse? LOL NATURE'S SWIFTNESS.

    It's like magic. Some people believe, others just haven't seen good magic yet.

    Blizzard has no intention of adding more cast-while-moving mechanics to this game. In fact, they're going to gut most of it in 5.4. I wouldn't be surprised if they completely did away with passive cast-while-moving effects. Spiritwalker's Grace is fine (15sec, 3min CD), because it's not passive -- KJC. This game has too many mechanics and changing something has too large an impact on other aspects. Stop trying to get the best of everything. No one ever felt good playing a game for 9 years if they ran around with /godmode active. I'm positive you never enjoyed cheating through a game as much as you did winning legitimately.

    Back on topic:
    If you don't want to cast DOC twice per Eclipse cycle, then pick up HOTW. It's like people need to be told how to play a damn game. It's a game, play as you want. If you want to be optimal, learn the optimal playstyle. If you want to use DOC, use DOC. If you don't want to use DOC, don't use DOC. Blizzard gives you options. You make the choices. I'm not even raiding progression in 5.4 and it feels like I've done more than my share of "helping the raiding community." Why don't the people who don't like DOC simply say why they don't like it? Seriously now, good feedback gets noticed. Give good feedback to theorycrafters and Blizzard alike, and we're going to criticize it for all its worth. You don't like casting HT once per Eclipse? Fine, but you're really not giving a reason as to why you dislike it. Because it feels clunky? What does "clunky" mean to you? Good feedback, or lurk more.
    So much win in this post.

    It's not like you are forced to spec into DoC, there are a whole 3 talents that tier, pick the one you like. And God forbid you'd actually have to work and have skill to do optimal dps. People overuse the words "clunky" and "nerf to fun" too much nowadays. Everything thats OP and gets fixed is a "nerf to fun", and everything that makes you work for something or monitor something or basically do anything is "clunky". As I see it the major problem of the moonkin community is that it consists of so many crybabies, if you go on any forums, everybody is crying about being underpowered, about being sat, about blizz never doing anything for us, being the worst caster in game and so on, which quite honestly baffles me - moonkin PvE is like in the best place it's been like... ever, and if AoE was changed somehow I'd think we'd be the most balanced (no pun intended) caster. The good and constructive feedback posts drown in the sea of QQ, so it's no wonder blizzard don't even bother to give proper responses. It's like trying to tell a kindergardener that they don't need 10 kg of candy to be happy, he just won't get that and will continue to cry that he needs it, ignoring all arguments.

    Anyway Cyous, do you really think that SotF+DoC will be competitive with HotW + FoN for single target? I don't see how the loss of 6% intellect and being able to put all 3 treants down with trinket procs due to the charge system will be outweighted by the increase gained from 25% mastery and post-solar skipping (which will mainly help offset the time spent casting HT). Not saying it's not gonna be possible, just that by my math it doesnt seem likely, but maybe im missing something.

  14. #994
    I am looking forward to DoC actually being viable, I like the idea of casting more spells, but I'm pretty sure the original intention of DoC was to reward you for healing, not to "force" you to heal to do more damage. I think you misunderstand why it feels bad to cast a heal as a dps. It's not because it's 2 sec of not doing dps, it's because you use the spell purely to buff your dps, not for the actual heal. Now I'm sure it will work fine in practice (except for its interaction with NG and abusing eclipse camping), but from a design standpoint I don't think it achieves its goal. You can argue that it does if you are actually timing the HT cast for when the healing is needed, but considering how little healing it does, it just doesn't seem worth it to sacrifice that amount of awareness. Now don't get me wrong, really good players can do this, but compared to a tranq (or most other dps classes raid cooldowns) it just seems like way too much to expect from a dps. Because really, how many players will actually be able to utilize this properly? 1% of all boomkins?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm not saying blizzard should redesign DoC for 5.4, but for the next expansion they probably should. The "reward for healing" comes from back when L90 talents weren't a direct dps increase, so it is just an outdated talent really.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    I am looking forward to DoC actually being viable, I like the idea of casting more spells, but I'm pretty sure the original intention of DoC was to reward you for healing, not to "force" you to heal to do more damage. I think you misunderstand why it feels bad to cast a heal as a dps. It's not because it's 2 sec of not doing dps, it's because you use the spell purely to buff your dps, not for the actual heal. Now I'm sure it will work fine in practice (except for its interaction with NG and abusing eclipse camping), but from a design standpoint I don't think it achieves its goal. You can argue that it does if you are actually timing the HT cast for when the healing is needed, but considering how little healing it does, it just doesn't seem worth it to sacrifice that amount of awareness. Now don't get me wrong, really good players can do this, but compared to a tranq (or most other dps classes raid cooldowns) it just seems like way too much to expect from a dps. Because really, how many players will actually be able to utilize this properly? 1% of all boomkins?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm not saying blizzard should redesign DoC for 5.4, but for the next expansion they probably should. The "reward for healing" comes from back when L90 talents weren't a direct dps increase, so it is just an outdated talent really.
    What would you guys actually propose to make this talent attractive to you? I liked the idea since it's been in the tier, but it never competed with the damage or healing the other 2 talents offered. Please don't just say "make DoC buff apply from rejuv" because that's just asking to make things easy.

    3 different talents, all competitive for different situations and different playstyles. Different ways to damage and off-heal. Pick what you like or suits the situation because all 3 should actually be comparable with this build. I don't see a problem other than people whining about casting another spell.

    The only help I can offer is to target your tank or yourself into a macro or something for those that feel it's "clunky". As a hybrid, I'm not entirely sure why you wouldn't be watching raid frames somewhat closely already.

  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    How so? you cast one HT prior to entering a new eclipse. One more spell to cast. Not like there are a lot of balance druid "rotational" spells atm anyway.
    You have to watch for the procs you have and if Nature's Grace and Tempus Repit aren't up, you have to pop Nature's Swiftness before Healing Touch.

  17. #997
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasp View Post
    Anyway Cyous, do you really think that SotF+DoC will be competitive with HotW + FoN for single target? I don't see how the loss of 6% intellect and being able to put all 3 treants down with trinket procs due to the charge system will be outweighted by the increase gained from 25% mastery and post-solar skipping (which will mainly help offset the time spent casting HT). Not saying it's not gonna be possible, just that by my math it doesnt seem likely, but maybe im missing something.
    I was basing my opinion on the likely outcomes of the playstyle:
    - NG + Meta will be up.
    - SOTF after casting HT and burning through current Eclipse. (I wouldn't think it'd be available for every Eclipse phase, but certainly after leaving Solar.)
    - Proper DOC play with SOTF cycles faster than HOTW or NV, thus higher Starfall, Moonfire, and Sunfire, uptime.
    - Depending on how often SOTF procs, we might be able to maintain a 1-DOT-refresh playstyle. (MF, SNF rolling..refresh Moonfire prior to SOTF...Sunfire...don't refresh Moonfire...Lunar Eclipse...refresh Moonfire. It's unlikely, but it's just a thought.)

    Again, this is only single-target. Multi-target is going to favor DOC once we learn the optimal playstyle.

    Also, it's my personal opinion that Healing Touch offer some Eclipse generation (20, 30 or 40) while not in Eclipse. This way it provides interaction with Nature's Grace. Sacrificing 5% bonus damage would be fine as a compensation nerf.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutheru View Post
    You have to watch for the procs you have and if Nature's Grace and Tempus Repit aren't up, you have to pop Nature's Swiftness before Healing Touch.
    There's an AddOn for that; you don't need to cast HT right before Eclipse either. You can easily game HT with Meta+NG active while waiting for an SS proc. If you don't get a proc, you're now 1 less cast away from the next Eclipse. Odds are, you'll get a proc within the next couple seconds, so you didn't exactly waste anything. For NS, I'd hold it specifically for movement when I need it, or if I really need the heal/instant cast. I'd use NS twice prior to CA, that way we're guaranteed an Insta-DOC+CA combo.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2013-08-29 at 12:28 PM.

  18. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    Also, it's my personal opinion that Healing Touch offer some Eclipse generation (20, 30 or 40) while not in Eclipse. This way it provides interaction with Nature's Grace. Sacrificing 5% bonus damage would be fine as a compensation nerf.
    I was just checking this myself in the patch notes and hoped it was already included. Giving Balance the same amount of Eclipse Energy as e.g. Wrath (out of and inside an eclipse) would smooth out the rotation by a lot while still retaining the spirit of the talent.

    Ofc might make a small nerf to the damage bonus necessary, although i think that making it scale with our current amount of mastery (although not too much in order to avoid inflating the value of mastery) would be great. (e.g. 15% flat bonus + 10% of the current eclipse damage bonus.)

    edit: but they should also make sure that, if you activate an eclipse with HT, the same eclipse gets buffed by HT. Otherwise you end up with things as in Cata with dotting stuff after casting something else first :<
    Last edited by runey; 2013-08-29 at 01:02 PM.

  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by runey View Post
    but they should also make sure that, if you activate an eclipse with HT, the same eclipse gets buffed by HT. Otherwise you end up with things as in Cata with dotting stuff after casting something else first :<
    Since Eclipse is held client-side for the most part, it shouldn't be a big deal to make the SOTF buff client-side as well.

  20. #1000
    It's just bad design, if it gives me more dmg then i will use it and it really won't make the rotation change much at all but it's still boring to be forced to overheal for extra dps..

    It's as pointless as a mage making a mage table to gain extra dmg

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