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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    It's just bad design, if it gives me more dmg then i will use it and it really won't make the rotation change much at all but it's still boring to be forced to overheal for extra dps..

    It's as pointless as a mage making a mage table to gain extra dmg
    That's why people with your opinion have boring old heart of the wild. Also I haven't been seeing many mages complaining about needing to decurse for a damage buff or DPS shaman complaining about dropping HR. I guess if people want to spam damage and nothing else you should really look into another class maybe rogue.

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    That's why people with your opinion have boring old heart of the wild. Also I haven't been seeing many mages complaining about needing to decurse for a damage buff or DPS shaman complaining about dropping HR. I guess if people want to spam damage and nothing else you should really look into another class maybe rogue.
    Oh so if we add in HT cast before every eclipse it makes things interesting and less boring? Sure that makes sense... HoW isn't interesting either but at least it server a purpose when used and as a passive.

    Mages decurse is not the same, decursing helps the raid, random overheal doesn't and the dmg buff is to compensate for the loss of dps while doing the decurse, decurse isn't even part of the rotation...

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    Oh so if we add in HT cast before every eclipse it makes things interesting and less boring? Sure that makes sense... HoW isn't interesting either but at least it server a purpose when used and as a passive.

    Mages decurse is not the same, decursing helps the raid, random overheal doesn't and the dmg buff is to compensate for the loss of dps while doing the decurse, decurse isn't even part of the rotation...
    It adds an additional spell cast and an additional buff to the rotation so it adds more depth and complexity. Whether or not you find it fun is your opinion. It's not random overheal if you manage it and actually use your raid frames. Like I mentioned earlier the tank is the person most typically with a health deficit so maybe try a focus HT on the tank while getting used to the rotation or something.

    What about Conductivity for shamans, Divine star for shadow? Tbh i think druid got the best end of the deal from a damage perspective. Or are you just complaining b/c HT has a cast time? becuase that's the feeling I'm getting from a lot of posters.
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-08-29 at 02:43 PM.

  4. #1004
    People were praising Blizzard for introducing DoC during Beta cause it would make the "great boomkin step" even higher to reach. It ended up being so impractical in the actual game that it was(is) obnoxious to use.

    We will just have to wait and see how it fairs with the finished encounters.

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    Oh so if we add in HT cast before every eclipse it makes things interesting and less boring? Sure that makes sense... HoW isn't interesting either but at least it server a purpose when used and as a passive.

    Mages decurse is not the same, decursing helps the raid, random overheal doesn't and the dmg buff is to compensate for the loss of dps while doing the decurse, decurse isn't even part of the rotation...
    Why do you even play a druid then? The playstyle of the class is supposed to match the lore surrounding it. I'm sure you wouldn't want Legolas running around with a big axe slaying orcs? Balance druids have always been used because they do good damage as well as providing utility to the raid. You will never find a balance druid who didn't have have to off heal, tranq, innervate at some point during progression to help get a kill. That is the entire point of a druid, we are the only class is the game that can become anything we want at some point. If you want a class clearly for the damage then you are playing the wrong class.

    Stop trying to have a class changed to your liking, that isn't how games work. That is why Blizzard has made leveling and gearing an alt such a joke because if you want to try something new you can. Appreciate the changes they have given us, sorry I don't want an easy rotation that relies on me spamming SS as much as possible. Feral is easily one of my favorite classes with DoC because it requires thinking. I welcome the DoC change because it just means it's going to be harder for me to be the best druid I can be. Like someone said before, the cream will rise to the top. And if anything should determine how someone is good at playing a druid, I would say being able to think on the fly with our rotation should be what determines that.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    It adds an additional spell cast and an additional buff to the rotation so it adds more depth and complexity. Whether or not you find it fun is your opinion. It's not random overheal if you manage it and actually use your raid frames. Like I mentioned earlier the tank is the person most typically with a health deficit so maybe try a focus HT on the tank while getting used to the rotation or something.
    It doesn't not add depth and complexity, it's one button there is nothing to get use too. No one will micro manage it, they will either stick it on the tank or themselves because it's just wasting dps time messing about with who to pick. It's a poor design because it brings nothing extra to the rotation other that delay, but hey it'll be nice wasting some trinket seconds casting a HT...

  7. #1007
    Unless the game has changed drastically and I missed it most hybrids have this thing they do, usually healing. They heal and dps, but not as well as the pures because the pures can't heal, but now the pures have different utilities as well so we can have roughly similar damage.

    Like warlock for example has 3 damage specs all do different types of damage but each spec specializes in a different niche. Boomkin has one damage niche but brings basically like 1/3 of another role so you don't get to excel in every damage niche otherwise everyone would be a hybrid.

    I'm starting to ramble a little/make not as much sense, and I don't want a full hybrid vs. pure debate, but you need to realize a portion of your role is healing at the right time and DoC just adds healing the right people to the equation. rather than say vigil/tranqs smart heal and if you want to fully optimize it as I mentioned need to pay more attn to your raid frames than previously, but I don't see a big deal with having a bind to HT macro the tank as long as it's a fight where you don't typically outrange the tank, as this should help a little with spikey tank damage and it's useful healing the overheal actually isn't that bad.

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    It adds an additional spell cast and an additional buff to the rotation so it adds more depth and complexity. Whether or not you find it fun is your opinion. It's not random overheal if you manage it and actually use your raid frames. Like I mentioned earlier the tank is the person most typically with a health deficit so maybe try a focus HT on the tank while getting used to the rotation or something.

    What about Conductivity for shamans, Divine star for shadow? Tbh i think druid got the best end of the deal from a damage perspective. Or are you just complaining b/c HT has a cast time? becuase that's the feeling I'm getting from a lot of posters.


    This is just.... Let's just say I disagree.

    DoC doesn't add complexity in any possible way. All it adds is bloat.

    FoN is complexity. Managing your tree stacks, knowing when to use/when not to use them, proper planning, is complexity. Casting 1 HT per eclipse isn't complexity. It's bloat.

    There's a significant difference between the two, and I wish more people would recognize this instead of going "stop crying if you cant handle complex rotations don't use it blah blah" and whatever other stuff I've seen in this thread.

    Ferals use DoC in conjunction with PS. It's still rotation bloat to a degree, but the whole "instant" part of it makes it less annoying. On top of that, it IS a layer of complexity - DoC only buffs the next 2 abilities. Using the "right" abilities as opposed to the "wrong" ones is a big deal, and proper planning and play goes a long way.

    Boomkin DoC in the new build has no complexity to it whatsoever - it's just a single extra button you add to the rotation at predictable intervals. There's little to no thought involved. The only "thought" at all is do I cast it before eclipse or after (For NG-buffed HT) - and that's fairly simple to math out well beforehand.

    The old version of Boomkin DoC had some complexity to it, unfortunately it sucked as a dps talent in comparison to the other options. I'm not going to sit here and map out possible fixes or other potential iterations of the talent, frankly I don't have any at the moment, and plenty of others have better ideas than I'd come up with. But it's perfectly valid to say "I don't like this talent. It's boring and annoying. And yes, I don't want to add a random HT cast to my rotation. It's stupid".

    I have no problem with complexity to the rotation or class. But this isn't it.

    Oh and cause it just popped into my head (And I have no idea what the numbers would look like at all, this is just off the top of my head) - something along the lines of HT cast buffs your next X wraths/starfires by X%, Rejuv buffs your next X Sunfires/Moonfires by X% - now that may be interesting and complex gameplay.

  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by kosars View Post
    snip
    Once again the comment of "I don't like to cast turn it to rejuv because it's instant".

    You're suggestion is exactly the same as the Faerie fire buff they put in during beta where you cast FF and it buffed the next 3 nukes by some amount. That feels worse that DoC currently and it's more "clunky" because it only buffs single target rather than the entire eclipse. DoC makes dots nukes and hurricane all stronger for as long as you're in eclipse, so you're not "punished" for not power-cycling as fast as you can through eclipses.

    It's not bloat, unless you for some reason don't bind HT. It makes you heal more often.

    Idk at this point just some people really opposed to the talent... I'd tell you to play another class if you don't like to heal, but there's 2 other talents that take HT out of the rotation if it's that awful for you.

    Again ppl just arguing HT vs rejuv at this point are just asking for things to be easier and really not offering a better idea than the current DoC in the most recent ptr build.

    How do you disagree? Casting HR for shamans doesn't give them a damage buff and divine star is a significant damage loss vs halo for spriest. Relatively druids have the most passive healing and the most reward for doing so.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlekin View Post
    Why do you even play a druid then? The playstyle of the class is supposed to match the lore surrounding it. I'm sure you wouldn't want Legolas running around with a big axe slaying orcs? Balance druids have always been used because they do good damage as well as providing utility to the raid. You will never find a balance druid who didn't have have to off heal, tranq, innervate at some point during progression to help get a kill. That is the entire point of a druid, we are the only class is the game that can become anything we want at some point. If you want a class clearly for the damage then you are playing the wrong class.

    Stop trying to have a class changed to your liking, that isn't how games work. That is why Blizzard has made leveling and gearing an alt such a joke because if you want to try something new you can. Appreciate the changes they have given us, sorry I don't want an easy rotation that relies on me spamming SS as much as possible. Feral is easily one of my favorite classes with DoC because it requires thinking. I welcome the DoC change because it just means it's going to be harder for me to be the best druid I can be. Like someone said before, the cream will rise to the top. And if anything should determine how someone is good at playing a druid, I would say being able to think on the fly with our rotation should be what determines that.
    My view is i think DoC is fine as any sort of increased damage is fine with me, casting a healing touch using it on yourself to over heal is the last amount of down time, no competitive dps owl will even remotely bother to scan their raid frames if they want to remain in contention with being good dps, they should of just made it so the less you overheal the more damage you do for x seconds and can't be reactivated until a new eclipse is reached or w/e

    People say about ferals but feral has predatory swiftness that pretty much allows every HT to be instant and when they don't have a proc they can just NS so they don't even have to bother to cast bar pre pull and the reason why feral is actually tough is because of the fact you have to actually pay attention to your dots and when to reapply them as well as keep up the roar and having to cast an instant heal is not hard at all.

    Also people trying to say that it makes the rotation fresh and interesting are just deluded as all its doing is replacing a hardcast wrath/starfire for a 25% damage buff, nothing particularly interesting in that, priest and shaman by far have the best hybrid healing abilities and the most interesting, priest with star promotes really good game play in positioning to get the max outside of the healing side however DoC just does none of this.

  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlekin View Post
    Why do you even play a druid then? The playstyle of the class is supposed to match the lore surrounding it. I'm sure you wouldn't want Legolas running around with a big axe slaying orcs? Balance druids have always been used because they do good damage as well as providing utility to the raid. You will never find a balance druid who didn't have have to off heal, tranq, innervate at some point during progression to help get a kill. That is the entire point of a druid, we are the only class is the game that can become anything we want at some point. If you want a class clearly for the damage then you are playing the wrong class.

    Stop trying to have a class changed to your liking, that isn't how games work. That is why Blizzard has made leveling and gearing an alt such a joke because if you want to try something new you can. Appreciate the changes they have given us, sorry I don't want an easy rotation that relies on me spamming SS as much as possible. Feral is easily one of my favorite classes with DoC because it requires thinking. I welcome the DoC change because it just means it's going to be harder for me to be the best druid I can be. Like someone said before, the cream will rise to the top. And if anything should determine how someone is good at playing a druid, I would say being able to think on the fly with our rotation should be what determines that.
    If you need to off heal your healers are doing something wrong, tranq & innervate have a purpose and that's fine because they work, they also only get cast once or twice in the whole fight... They aren't even part of a rotation they are CD's..., everything you've said has nothing to do with what i'm talking about... The fact you're missing is that HT is going to be a total WASTE of a cast healing wise so why put it in?

    '' I welcome the DoC change because it just means it's going to be harder for me to be the best druid I can be. Like someone said before, the cream will rise to the top.''

    I lol'd at this part, the extra button/cast doesn't make the rotation harder at all, nothing changes it's just 1 cast >.< lol!

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    If you need to off heal your healers are doing something wrong
    Maybe at current gear levels or normal modes, but when your doing progress typically the majority of your guild is undgeared and hybrid healing in all forms is very valuable.

    It's a tier that's concerned with damage and healing interacting with each other, unless you have a better idea, this is okay, I'm not saying it's the best idea for a talent, but I'd prefer I actually had a choice and wasn't just choosing heart for every fight.

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Unless the game has changed drastically and I missed it most hybrids have this thing they do, usually healing. They heal and dps, but not as well as the pures because the pures can't heal, but now the pures have different utilities as well so we can have roughly similar damage.

    Like warlock for example has 3 damage specs all do different types of damage but each spec specializes in a different niche. Boomkin has one damage niche but brings basically like 1/3 of another role so you don't get to excel in every damage niche otherwise everyone would be a hybrid.

    I'm starting to ramble a little/make not as much sense, and I don't want a full hybrid vs. pure debate, but you need to realize a portion of your role is healing at the right time and DoC just adds healing the right people to the equation. rather than say vigil/tranqs smart heal and if you want to fully optimize it as I mentioned need to pay more attn to your raid frames than previously, but I don't see a big deal with having a bind to HT macro the tank as long as it's a fight where you don't typically outrange the tank, as this should help a little with spikey tank damage and it's useful healing the overheal actually isn't that bad.
    You've gone full re.....

    No good player will try and use HT as an effective heal, if you think that you really are letting your raid team down when you try to micro manage it. I'll be using it on myself or the tank and i won't even look because it's a waste of time and a dps loss trying to make it effective....

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Once again the comment of "I don't like to cast turn it to rejuv because it's instant".

    You're suggestion is exactly the same as the Faerie fire buff they put in during beta where you cast FF and it buffed the next 3 nukes by some amount. That feels worse that DoC currently and it's more "clunky" because it only buffs single target rather than the entire eclipse. DoC makes dots nukes and hurricane all stronger for as long as you're in eclipse, so you're not "punished" for not power-cycling as fast as you can through eclipses.

    It's not bloat, unless you for some reason don't bind HT. It makes you heal more often.

    Idk at this point just some people really opposed to the talent... I'd tell you to play another class if you don't like to heal, but there's 2 other talents that take HT out of the rotation if it's that awful for you.

    Again ppl just arguing HT vs rejuv at this point are just asking for things to be easier and really not offering a better idea than the current DoC in the most recent ptr build.

    How do you disagree? Casting HR for shamans doesn't give them a damage buff and divine star is a significant damage loss vs halo for spriest. Relatively druids have the most passive healing and the most reward for doing so.
    I think you completely misunderstood my "suggestion". The idea was your hardcast heal buffs your hardcasts, your instant heal buffs your instant. Synergy and all that... I'm not advocating to make the entire talent based on rejuv, that would be just as ridiculous as it is right now. But I digress.

    Yes, it is bloat. It's not complex. It's not interesting. It's an extra button you hit. You don't have to think about when to hit it. You just do because it's a damage buff. You're not hitting it to add healing or anything else related to your "hybrid" argument. You're only hitting it to buff your damage. It's bloat.


    I cast Rejuv right now plenty. More than the average Moonkin I'd wager. I don't complain about it, I do it because it provides benefit to the raid. I wouldn't be spamming HT every few seconds with this talent for any sort of raid benefit, I'd be doing it for a flat damage buff, no other reason. If someone actually gets healed, it's a bonus, but thats not why I'm using it, so your shaman/priest/everything else argument is pretty null and void.


    And yes, my suggestion is similar (Not the same at all. Just similar) to the FF buff. And that has infinite layers of complexity compared to the current incarnation of the talent. You say "Clunky". Maybe. But what you really mean is "complex" and "counter-intuitive". The problem is, the entire talent is based off counter-intuitiveness. So you have a choice. What you call "Clunky", or what I call "Boring".


    To be fair if I had my way the following changes would occur:

    all lvl 90 talents scrapped and replaced with utility talents. DoC baseline feral, nonexistant for other specs. HoTW baseline period, remove the 6% stat buff. (Make it only a button you hit to preform off-spec roles, not a dps increase). NV Baseline Moonkin and resto, tweak the ability accordingly. (Buff, Nerf, not sure).

    I don't see that happening anytime soon, or at least not before the next xpac, but no matter how you slice it, DoC, at this moment on the PTR, is simply rotational bloat. I'll use the talent if it's the best dps talent come 5.4, but my opinion of it won't change.

  15. #1015
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    Id love to see a minor tweak to DOC. 2 stacks of *choose a name that suits it* = +25% on next eclipse.

    Utility spells generate stacks; Healing touch or Tranq = 2 stacks; while Rejuvenation, Innervate, Entangling Roots, Typhoon, Stampeding Roar, Ursol's vortex all = 1 stack.

    There are gonna be times when 2 x rejuv or a combo of other spells is nicer than a hardcast HT. such as on the move etc. It also feels more like you're being rewarded for using utility, rather than forced to cast (in most cases) completely useless self-overheals.

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  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Id love to see a minor tweak to DOC. 2 stacks of *choose a name that suits it* = +25% on next eclipse.

    Utility spells generate stacks; Healing touch or Tranq = 2 stacks; while Rejuvenation, Innervate, Entangling Roots, Typhoon, Stampeding Roar, Ursol's vortex all = 1 stack.

    There are gonna be times when 2 x rejuv or a combo of other spells is nicer than a hardcast HT. such as on the move etc. It also feels more like you're being rewarded for using utility, rather than forced to cast (in most cases) completely useless self-overheals.
    I actually tweeted to GCer about this lol, let it stack to 2 for 30s and make rejuve stack it once and HT stack in twice, didn't get a response though.

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    You've gone full re.....

    No good player will try and use HT as an effective heal, if you think that you really are letting your raid team down when you try to micro manage it. I'll be using it on myself or the tank and i won't even look because it's a waste of time and a dps loss trying to make it effective....
    And you're completely contradicting yourself with that statement. A good player would micro it to be more effective at offhealing and dps than a less skilled player.

    Just like good players used Vigil rather than heart on progress like DA

    - - - Updated - - -

    I continue to see phrases like "useless overheal". I haven't seen too many fights where you take little or no damage throughout the encounter. There will be some overheal, probably earlier in the fight mostly, but it's far from useless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kosars View Post

    And yes, my suggestion is similar (Not the same at all. Just similar) to the FF buff. And that has infinite layers of complexity compared to the current incarnation of the talent. You say "Clunky". Maybe. But what you really mean is "complex" and "counter-intuitive". The problem is, the entire talent is based off counter-intuitiveness. So you have a choice. What you call "Clunky", or what I call "Boring".
    It has less complexity because it only buffs single target nukes and is the exact same thing as the beta talent I mentioned and it was scrapped for a reason. I'd rather benefit my eclipse buff rather than x spell x times.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Unless the game has changed drastically and I missed it most hybrids have this thing they do, usually healing. They heal and dps, but not as well as the pures because the pures can't heal, but now the pures have different utilities as well so we can have roughly similar damage.
    That never worked in the first place, which is why Blizzard gave up on the idea.

  19. #1019
    It's just bad, sad and clunky design on DoC.

    How people are actually rejoicing on having to cast Healing Touch in such quick, mind numbing succession, is just scary.

  20. #1020
    okay then don't complain about it and spec NV or HotW some of us like it

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