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  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    If you need to off heal your healers are doing something wrong, tranq & innervate have a purpose and that's fine because they work, they also only get cast once or twice in the whole fight... They aren't even part of a rotation they are CD's..., everything you've said has nothing to do with what i'm talking about... The fact you're missing is that HT is going to be a total WASTE of a cast healing wise so why put it in?

    '' I welcome the DoC change because it just means it's going to be harder for me to be the best druid I can be. Like someone said before, the cream will rise to the top.''

    I lol'd at this part, the extra button/cast doesn't make the rotation harder at all, nothing changes it's just 1 cast >.< lol!
    Have you gone full stupid? Regardless of if the heal is needed or not means nothing, just like you can't hope your trinket will proc at the exact moment you need it to. That same logic can be used for anything in the game. Oh if it won't effect me right this instance it's a completely useless ability and pointless to be apart of the game. You are right, you might use it and the heal might not be needed it at all, but that's just a sacrifice of the class to do more damage. Get over it. What makes using HT difficult is when to use it. Same with how ending our casts for SS procs has become a part of the class in order to get the most damage out of our procs.

    Your whole argument is based around you don't want to use an ability because when it's done casting you don't see the boss taking damage. Unless you are in top 10 world guild, I highly doubt damage is the main reason you wipe. But I can see hundreds of times in raids where another person throwing a heal on the tank every 30 seconds or so could really help on certain bosses.

    My mind is blown by how selfish people can be in this world. Oh I'm a dps so I shouldn't have any other responsibilities is stupid. Do you realize how bored of this game you and most people would do is just sit there and do damage and nothing else. It's the difficulties that make a game fun because the obstacles are constantly changing for you to adapt to. That's why I play WoW because each time I go into a dungeon or raid something changes and that means I have to be able to change in order to play, the day I got into a raid and it's the same thing every time is the day I stop playing WoW.

    But clearly change is too difficult for people to accept because it means they have to learn something new, and god forbid that means I might not be good at it straight away. Welcome to the real world where you don't always get what you want, and have to work with it regardless.

  2. #1022
    Fizzlekin has the gift of English that I do not, so I'll let him continue the pro-DoC discussion. Not every spell a damage dealer casts has to do damage I like this thought. Also it's throwing in another buff to juggle which is good imo if you want more things to manage/cast w/e. I guess maybe mages were opposed to evocating every minute to get a damage buff because they didn't need the mana or heal? or maybe mages whined less than druids not sure. But this is actually compareable to invocation b/c the evocate was "useless" as people describe b/c the mage didnt need the hp or mana always they were just doing it for the damage buff lol.

  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlekin View Post
    But clearly change is too difficult for people to accept because it means they have to learn something new, and god forbid that means I might not be good at it straight away. Welcome to the real world where you don't always get what you want, and have to work with it regardless.
    Change is always scary, but i think its fair enough to question change when it occurs because not all change is good. Remember when they tried to slip Fae Empowerment on us during the MoP beta? Lol.

    Thats the internet for you, everyone is a critic and everyone hides behind anonymity and snipes complaints and insults from behind their keyboards. Hopefully Balance is still awesome after the 5.4 changes.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week information is revealed about secret CIA trained dolphins, climbing Mt. Everest and dream analysis!!

  4. #1024
    FYI for who keep saying that you have to pop Healing Touch right before an eclipse ur wrong. You could pop it at any time between eclipses, there isn't a timeout for the buff (if you thing of this as an Evocation buff). Heck, you could pop this right after you refresh both dots, or whatever you feel like. I would actually be against poping it right before since you might not have NG up and make it an even slower transition...

    PS: yesterday during progression on Durumu our tank was dropping low and I had a 550k crit heal from NS+HT on him. I actually really like this change to try to make DoC more viable, specially on fights with constant aoe damage or tank damage where my HTs could actually be taken for good use.
    Last edited by land; 2013-08-29 at 04:23 PM.

  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Fizzlekin has the gift of English that I do not, so I'll let him continue the pro-DoC discussion. Not every spell a damage dealer casts has to do damage I like this thought. Also it's throwing in another buff to juggle which is good imo if you want more things to manage/cast w/e. I guess maybe mages were opposed to evocating every minute to get a damage buff because they didn't need the mana or heal? or maybe mages whined less than druids not sure. But this is actually compareable to invocation b/c the evocate was "useless" as people describe b/c the mage didnt need the hp or mana always they were just doing it for the damage buff lol.
    Fairly sure you just contradicted all your previous posts here, in general I don't care for casting 1 healing touch but the likeliness its going to be over healing is so high that its just virtually useless and all you are doing it for is to inflate your next eclipse by 25% extra damage(boring btw) they should of just added something more interesting in t6 talent tree like priests have and had the hybrid heal spells(i.e make NV just convert damage into healing and healing in to damage and give no damage buff like AG) in the non damage/healing related tiers.

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    And you're completely contradicting yourself with that statement. A good player would micro it to be more effective at offhealing and dps than a less skilled player.
    It's not a contradiction you blabbering fool, to micro manage an ineffective heal that decreases your dps is down right stupid and if you claim other wise you've got no idea what you're talking about. A skilled player wouldn't waste a moments thought on whether or not his HT is effective because he can't control the effectiveness without losing dps.

    How hard is that to understand?

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    It's not a contradiction you blabbering fool, to micro manage an ineffective heal that decreases your dps is down right stupid and if you claim other wise you've got no idea what you're talking about. A skilled player wouldn't waste a moments thought on whether or not his HT is effective because he can't control the effectiveness without losing dps.

    How hard is that to understand?
    It's hard to understand that some players couldn't juggle more things at once well such as casting HT on someone with a health deficit by looking at their raid frames?

    Am i missing something? You're not healing someone every time they get low, rather when you need the DoC buff you try to prioritze lower targets. Tank is always taking damage so it is effective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleuria View Post
    Fairly sure you just contradicted all your previous posts here,
    How? that post is just agreeing with fizzle and making an analogy to the mage t90 talent Invocation, which no one seems to have great issue with in the mage community since that evocate was "totally useless and clunky" because they didn't need the mana or hp at the time but they did need the buff for damage.

  8. #1028
    I've been testing a bit on the PTR with the new DoC + a heavy mastery build. My stats are as follows (Unbuffed):
    15.00% Hit
    10413 Haste - Total 30.73%
    7862 Crit - Total 24.62%
    12228 Mastery (+38.13%) - Total at 53% Bonus Eclipse Damage + 18% Base Eclipse Damage = 68%
    With DoC + Eclipse, that gives me an Eclipse Bonus Damage of 93% unbuffed.
    I have no idea how to sim this or calculate the difference between the DPS with these given stats and the stats of a more Crit dependent build.

    Patchwerk style (unbuffed, no Time warp, etc.) I could maintain a single target DPS of approx. 210k with a lot of mistakes concerning casting HT before entering next Eclipse. I guess that will take a bit of getting used to.
    Single target DPS with the "new" opener, starting in Solar Eclipse, I was able to push 600k single target for the duration for CA and Incarnation.

    Starsurge topped at 1.2M
    Starfire topped at 635K
    Wrath topped at 268K
    Starfall topped at 174K
    Moonfire/Sunfire Avg. at 35k

    Lunar/Solar Bolt represents 3.5-4% of Total Damage.

    Total Damage was approx. 50M

    I'm not sure of the exact values for crit and mastery, but it does seem that mastery outweighs crit by quite a lot at this point, as crit is worth increasingly less the more targets are active.
    As I said, I have no math or sims to back this up, so I would appreciate if someone could perform a more elaborate test of such "mastery build".

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzlekin View Post
    Have you gone full stupid? Regardless of if the heal is needed or not means nothing, just like you can't hope your trinket will proc at the exact moment you need it to. That same logic can be used for anything in the game. Oh if it won't effect me right this instance it's a completely useless ability and pointless to be apart of the game. You are right, you might use it and the heal might not be needed it at all, but that's just a sacrifice of the class to do more damage. Get over it. What makes using HT difficult is when to use it. Same with how ending our casts for SS procs has become a part of the class in order to get the most damage out of our procs.

    Your whole argument is based around you don't want to use an ability because when it's done casting you don't see the boss taking damage. Unless you are in top 10 world guild, I highly doubt damage is the main reason you wipe. But I can see hundreds of times in raids where another person throwing a heal on the tank every 30 seconds or so could really help on certain bosses.

    My mind is blown by how selfish people can be in this world. Oh I'm a dps so I shouldn't have any other responsibilities is stupid. Do you realize how bored of this game you and most people would do is just sit there and do damage and nothing else. It's the difficulties that make a game fun because the obstacles are constantly changing for you to adapt to. That's why I play WoW because each time I go into a dungeon or raid something changes and that means I have to be able to change in order to play, the day I got into a raid and it's the same thing every time is the day I stop playing WoW.

    But clearly change is too difficult for people to accept because it means they have to learn something new, and god forbid that means I might not be good at it straight away. Welcome to the real world where you don't always get what you want, and have to work with it regardless.
    It's easy to learn and easy to put into the rotation, that's got nothing to do with the with the talent being pointless due to the heal being ineffective...

  10. #1030
    Sadly, it's also very, very boring. There's not much of a decision to make, it just increases complexity while not affecting depth.
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Am i missing something? You're not healing someone every time they get low, rather when you need the DoC buff you try to prioritze lower targets. Tank is always taking damage so it is effective..
    Most of the time, it will be overheal either way. There's people whose entire job is healing the raid, and if you heal low health targets, you'll invariably clash with them.
    Tanks do not always take damage, and there's been raid mechanics where healing them is actually a very bad idea before.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    It's easy to learn and easy to put into the rotation, that's got nothing to do with the with the talent being pointless due to the heal being ineffective...
    Under your logic the mage t90 talent Invocation should be scrapped because the actual evocate was useless, and they were just doing it for the buff. Nature's vigil, as well should be scrapped because in order to get the most damage from it you need to use it on cd rather than holding it for periods of high damage.

    There's choices in every talent tier, if you despise it so much don't pick it. If you don't like to monitor your raid frames, don't pick it. If you don't like to cast healing touch don't pick it.

    And please, if you don't actually have a better suggestion (directed at fodder especially), don't come here to make multiple posts just to complain about it. Some people like the talent, some people don't. Most are just resistant to change.

  12. #1032
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    How? that post is just agreeing with fizzle and making an analogy to the mage t90 talent Invocation, which no one seems to have great issue with in the mage community since that evocate was "totally useless and clunky" because they didn't need the mana or hp at the time but they did need the buff for damage.
    Almost all the HT cast will be over healing 95% of the time as you are casting 1 healing touch every ~15s when I used DoC in the beta with the 100% dot buff it was pretty much just all over healing even on a tank and thus it just virtually becomes the same as the mage spell which is just a clunky mechanic for a lot more damage.

    On top of this you also have to possibly use the NS + HT combo if you don't have a meta proc and NG which just took away an oh shit mechanic if you get unlucky.

    End of the day I'm fine with the talent as it gives more damage even if its a semi boring mechanic.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Sadly, it's also very, very boring. There's not much of a decision to make, it just increases complexity while not affecting depth.


    Most of the time, it will be overheal either way. There's people whose entire job is healing the raid, and if you heal low health targets, you'll invariably clash with them.
    Tanks do not always take damage, and there's been raid mechanics where healing them is actually a very bad idea before.
    Then just heal yourself. Just checked the dungeon journal and I can't find a single fight where there's no raid damage. It's not useless and it's not super effective. Just because there is overheal, even a lot (resto druids), doesn't mean its useless. Sick of people overreacting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleuria View Post
    Almost all the HT cast will be over healing 95% of the time as you are casting 1 healing touch every ~15s when I used DoC in the beta with the 100% dot buff it was pretty much just all over healing even on a tank and thus it just virtually becomes the same as the mage spell which is just a clunky mechanic for a lot more damage.

    On top of this you also have to possibly use the NS + HT combo if you don't have a meta proc and NG which just took away an oh shit mechanic if you get unlucky.

    End of the day I'm fine with the talent as it gives more damage even if its a semi boring mechanic.
    95%? Don't just make up statistics. Even if every cast overheals, how much is the overheal? Useless is overused term here.

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Under your logic the mage t90 talent Invocation should be scrapped because the actual evocate was useless, and they were just doing it for the buff. Nature's vigil, as well should be scrapped because in order to get the most damage from it you need to use it on cd rather than holding it for periods of high damage.
    The mages would be happy if it were. Just saying.

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Under your logic the mage t90 talent Invocation should be scrapped because the actual evocate was useless, and they were just doing it for the buff. Nature's vigil, as well should be scrapped because in order to get the most damage from it you need to use it on cd rather than holding it for periods of high damage.

    There's choices in every talent tier, if you despise it so much don't pick it. If you don't like to monitor your raid frames, don't pick it. If you don't like to cast healing touch don't pick it.

    And please, if you don't actually have a better suggestion (directed at fodder especially), don't come here to make multiple posts just to complain about it. Some people like the talent, some people don't. Most are just resistant to change.
    I will always pick what's best for my dps and the raid as a whole, it's not a matter of choice it's a matter of whats effective. DoC will be picked i'm sure because it's going to increase our dps on some fights, but why make us use an HT, an ineffective heal/spell to get it?

    You don't seem to grasp that i'm happy to have buffs in the way of something interesting or helps the fight/raid but to slap it on the likes of this is just bad lazy design.

    Bored of this now, we don't agree end of story.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    95%? Don't just make up statistics. Even if every cast overheals, how much is the overheal? Useless is overused term here.
    And you have zero evidence that it is not going to be 95% overheal. So your guess is no better.

    You seem to have a hard time understanding why it is bad. Let me give you an example. Tank drops to 10% hp, and since you with your almighty raidawareness notice right away, you click your NS+HT macro. BUT WAIT! It is on cd. You start hardcasting, but since boss swing timer is 1.5s the next hit lands before your HT and your tank is dead.

    Also you do contradict yourself quite a bit. Half your posts are: "but it will be a lot of effective healing" while others are "but mages evocation doesn't heal either, so it's fine"

    And if you actually think that all top boomkins will use it for the heal (and not purely for the dps increase), oh boy you are wrong my friend! Yes they specced NV for extra healing even though it was a dps loss, but this is nothing compared to that. If they want extra healing, they will just spec NV this tier aswell.

    And for those saying it will help stabilize tanks, no it wont. constant healing like Lifebloom will. Not a heal every 15 sec.

  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by fodder View Post
    I will always pick what's best for my dps and the raid as a whole, it's not a matter of choice it's a matter of whats effective. DoC will be picked i'm sure because it's going to increase our dps on some fights, but why make us use an HT, an ineffective heal/spell to get it?

    You don't seem to grasp that i'm happy to have buffs in the way of something interesting or helps the fight/raid but to slap it on the likes of this is just bad lazy design.

    Bored of this now, we don't agree end of story.
    As I said before if you don't have a better idea don't make multiple complaint posts b/c its not adding anything constructive. The HTs are helpful, not the best or most helpful heal out there, but keyword here is helpful to the raid so using words like useless and ineffective is wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    And you have zero evidence that it is not going to be 95% overheal. So your guess is no better.

    You seem to have a hard time understanding why it is bad. Let me give you an example. Tank drops to 10% hp, and since you with your almighty raidawareness notice right away, you click your NS+HT macro. BUT WAIT! It is on cd. You start hardcasting, but since boss swing timer is 1.5s the next hit lands before your HT and your tank is dead.

    Also you do contradict yourself quite a bit. Half your posts are: "but it will be a lot of effective healing" while others are "but mages evocation doesn't heal either, so it's fine"

    And if you actually think that all top boomkins will use it for the heal (and not purely for the dps increase), oh boy you are wrong my friend! Yes they specced NV for extra healing even though it was a dps loss, but this is nothing compared to that. If they want extra healing, they will just spec NV this tier aswell.

    And for those saying it will help stabilize tanks, no it wont. constant healing like Lifebloom will. Not a heal every 15 sec.
    I'm not contradicting myself and this is the last time I'll make this clear to you. Useless and ineffective were being overused and I said using HT a lot more now with DoC would be helpful to the raid or tanks or your own self preservation.

    I can guarantee that 95% of the time HT heal won't be complete overheal. Probably all the HTs will be partial overheal, as are most heals done by healers anyway. That doesn't mean it was useful or unhelpful.

    My comparison to Invocation was to counter the argument that "the heal is only being used to gain a buff, and 0 effective healing will be done". That's because mages' evocate with the Invocation talent irregardless of if they need mana or a heal, just to gain this buff and it is a widely used mage talent that adds more the the basic rotation. Some mages like it, some mages don't, but arguing that you're only using a spell to gain a buff is not at all good support for redesigning it. It's how the game works, you cast a spell, you get a useful buff sometimes, irregardless of that spell doing damage or being instant cast.

    Additionally, no one said this would stabalize tanks or guarantee tanks safety, so I'm not sure what you're reading exactly.

    Overall, druid t90 revolves around the interaction between damage and healing. All 3 talents accomplish this goal, while DoC requires the most management, as it requires an additionally spell to be cast much more often than Nature's Vigil in comparison.

  18. #1038

    Red face

    In this game players are suffering for the mistakes of the developers. Since the beginning of time.
    Ferals have received too much instant control (PS+cyclone, NS+cyclone, treant stun), the situation is out of control. Nerf. To the ground.

    Talent "Dream of Cenarius" 5.4 version. Unreasonable +25% damage buff for the owls. I'm the only one who fucking afraid that this change does not end good?

    Sorry for my english, I write with balalaika.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by BarbieSmile View Post
    In this game players are suffering for the mistakes of the developers. Since the beginning of time.
    Ferals have received too much instant control (PS+cyclone, NS+cyclone, treant stun), the situation is out of control. Nerf. To the ground.

    Talent "Dream of Cenarius" 5.4 version. Unreasonable +25% damage buff for the owls. I'm the only one who fucking afraid that this change does not end good?

    Sorry for my english, I write with balalaika.
    It's not a 25% damage buff its 25% half of the time.

    tldr: outside of eclipse its dps value is 0
    Last edited by Fleuria; 2013-08-29 at 06:00 PM.

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Additionally, no one said this would stabalize tanks or guarantee tanks safety, so I'm not sure what you're reading exactly.
    eh what.
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I'm starting to ramble a little/make not as much sense, and I don't want a full hybrid vs. pure debate, but you need to realize a portion of your role is healing at the right time and DoC just adds healing the right people to the equation. rather than say vigil/tranqs smart heal and if you want to fully optimize it as I mentioned need to pay more attn to your raid frames than previously, but I don't see a big deal with having a bind to HT macro the tank as long as it's a fight where you don't typically outrange the tank, as this should help a little with spikey tank damage and it's useful healing the overheal actually isn't that bad.
    I'll try one last time even though you have ignored it so far. It is bad because you don't use it for the heal. And thus does not accomplish the goal of interaction between damage and healing. And as I wrote earlier, you wont have NS+HT for when you actually want to use it.

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