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  1. #1141
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Idk what you mean by this comment? The talents have changed to make the numbers more in line with other choices in the same tier. Most of the choices have been the same all xpac iirc? Ysera's gift is the only change so far and why would you want stat priorities to change drastically mid expansion?
    SoTF was changed, but it's still not a good enough option compared to the others. The final tier is just more of the same, and very few will consider taking DoC with it's awkward rotation breaker. So we are pretty much in the same spot as before, and that is pretty boring when the patch has been much anticipated.

    As for stats, personally I just like to see something fresh when a patch hits. We've been Haste / Crit the entire expansion, it's boring. It would of been nice to hit a point where our Mastery becomes better.

    I guess it's just comes down to personal preference.

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    SoTF was changed, but it's still not a good enough option compared to the others. The final tier is just more of the same, and very few will consider taking DoC with it's awkward rotation breaker. So we are pretty much in the same spot as before, and that is pretty boring when the patch has been much anticipated.

    As for stats, personally I just like to see something fresh when a patch hits. We've been Haste / Crit the entire expansion, it's boring. It would of been nice to hit a point where our Mastery becomes better.

    I guess it's just comes down to personal preference.
    Yeah, I guess I didn't see where changing stat priorities really added anything to the spec or made things more interesting. Mastery could be stronger depending on how important your burst window is to accomplishing some sort of goal, but for sustained damage it remains unchanged.

    I don't like how long this has taken, but the talent changes are so much more even now than previously. I remember at the start of MoP INC+3min Vigil was the only choice b/c it outshined the others by such a large margin. SotF imo remains the only outlier now. Perhaps it will be redesigned(hopefully) or the proc chance buffed. Even this tier was pretty much Inc+vigil or inc+hotw. I just prefer more choices and changing things around a bit to keep it fresh.

    Also something people are forgetting I think is that the talent system isn't supposed to force you into one talent because it's better. You should theoretically be able to play with the talents you prefer in most situations. I guess maybe if a group of adds weren't dying fast enough you might be "forced" into speccing DoC for more cleave damage, but seems like a thing that would be limited to heroic raiding. Generally, talents are a personal preference.
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-09-08 at 02:36 AM.

  3. #1143
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Mmm, so here's some napkin maths for DoC and mastery vs. crit builds.

    First of all, let's lay down a few constants. Normal damage: x, Eclipse bonus: y%, DoC bonus: 25%.

    To find the damage multiplier of DoC we consider the damage with and without DoC: x*(1+y+0.25)/(x*(1+y)). x*(1+y+0.25) represents eclipse damage with DoC enabled, and x*(1+y) is the normal eclipse damage. We simplify this to (1+0.25/(1+y)). As y increases, the multiplying effect DoC has is lessened -- conversely, with little mastery the DoC bonus becomes comparatively larger. When y = 0.15 (no mastery), DoC modifier becomes (1+0.25/(1+0.15)) = 1.217, or DoC contributes 21.7% more damage on normal levels. However, when y = 0.75 (a lot of mastery), the modifier is (1+0.25/(1+0.75)) = 1.143, or a 14.3% increase. We could extrapolate this to saying if you had 1000% mastery that an additive 25% wouldn't make much of a difference (a 2.5% increase in overall damage). This is just comparing eclipse damage to non-eclipse damage -- it does not speak for the actual DPS of the talent.

    Therefore, we can conclude that DoC provides more of a benefit with lower mastery, and justifies using a crit build while using DoC. Furthermore, since DoC can also be translated into flat mastery rating and increasing one stat proportionately increases the others, this is more evidence for a crit-centric build with DoC.

    Edit: as an aside, DoC is "actually worth" 31.25% mastery when factoring in the Incarnation multiplier (cumulative property on (y+25)*1.25). These two talents have a good deal of synergy, but not as much as I was thinking in an earlier version of this post.

    (Apologies to anyone who read this post earlier as I've edited most of it and re-reading might be confusing. Just ignore the stuff on Incarnation increase, it was wrong because I wasn't multiplying against normal non-eclipse damage.)
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-09-08 at 06:31 AM.

  4. #1144
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    This is fixed, the last 2-3 days the damage + tooltip has been benefitting properly. My bonus with live gear (t15 4set) is 63% with DoC buff. I can't remember the specifics, but I've heard eclipse stuff is handled server side so idk if it would have even required a patch or hotfix.
    The fact the tooltip is displayed properly, may not mean it has been fixed. Hopefully it does. But even then I'll most likely be rolling with HoTW at the start of the tier unless DoC clearly is a winner in cases for like Immerseus or Galakras.
    Check out my youtube channel of fail: http://www.youtube.com/EliteRocketbear

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  5. #1145
    so i think the question on everyones mind is. Where are we on the meters compared to other classes ?

  6. #1146
    OVer the sky

    Infracted. Please stay constructive and on topic.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-09-08 at 10:45 AM.
    Ex #1 balance druid in Method. Currently casual/retired

  7. #1147
    Flying too high.

    Infracted. Please stay constructive and on topic.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-09-08 at 10:46 AM.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbear View Post
    2 questions: How awake were you during those tests? I'm currently pulling far higher dps when just testing dummies with 5 item levels lower than yourself (on both live and ptr, closer to the 175k marging when having zero buffs).
    Were you using T15 4piece talent with DoC, if so, are you aware that they're bugged atm and don't properly trigger together?

    Treants and DoC aren't supposed to scale at all together, because treants do not scale with eclipse or mastery. Ergo, you dun goofed, mate.

    u used starfall glyph?
    my result mean SINGLE. used it.(no use this glyph i did around 180k)
    and i used T15 4set. coz i see that bug now.

    if u used glyph and 4set higher than me, yea u are good player X)

    my result is just sample.
    i know i have to more practice.
    Last edited by gomen; 2013-09-08 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgok View Post
    OVer the sky
    Come back to us xoxox iloveu

    Infracted. Please stay constructive and on topic.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-09-08 at 10:46 AM.

  10. #1150
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbear View Post
    The fact the tooltip is displayed properly, may not mean it has been fixed. Hopefully it does. But even then I'll most likely be rolling with HoTW at the start of the tier unless DoC clearly is a winner in cases for like Immerseus or Galakras.
    I said the damage was fixed and the tooltip was fixed to boot. tested DoC buffed starsurge vs non DoC SS with no procs up. the DoC buffed SS hit harder. You can log on ptr and check yourself, but things seem to be sorted w/ the bug.


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    Last edited by Chelly; 2013-09-08 at 03:37 PM.

  12. #1152
    Cool so my post is deleted without any explanation even though it has relevance to this thread. You could have at least edited it instead of deleting my post outright.

    Basically what I said was that I hope the bug fixes and interaction between tier sets are fixed in time for live release. And that this thread would probably be locked after 5.4 releases live, so its not a big deal if a mod decides to infract a bunch of people for seemingly inappropriate posts.

    Also, how do I contact sunshine ? PM?
    Last edited by Mirri; 2013-09-08 at 04:57 PM.
    Mew!

  13. #1153
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirri View Post
    Cool so my post is deleted without any explanation even though it has relevance to this thread. You could have at least edited it instead of deleting my post outright.

    Basically what I said was that I hope the bug fixes and interaction between tier sets are fixed in time for live release. And that this thread would probably be locked after 5.4 releases live, so its not a big deal if a mod decides to infract a bunch of people for seemingly inappropriate posts.

    Also, how do I contact sunshine ? PM?
    You can send a PM to sunshine here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/members/557962-Sunshine if you have a problem with a mod or mod action.

  14. #1154
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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  15. #1155
    So basically, whats the verdict? Single target you go treants, multitarget you go incarnation... As far as hotw/DoC, you use which when? DoC seems op on multitarget, does hotw outdo DoC single target? I suppose we'll never take nature's vigil since DoC is probably more bursty, albeit with up and downs while nature's vigil will be more constant on top of providing healing to the raid..

  16. #1156
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    So basically, whats the verdict? Single target you go treants, multitarget you go incarnation... As far as hotw/DoC, you use which when? DoC seems op on multitarget, does hotw outdo DoC single target? I suppose we'll never take nature's vigil since DoC is probably more bursty, albeit with up and downs while nature's vigil will be more constant on top of providing healing to the raid..
    Single-target *should* be FoN/HotW as the best talents, but I'm sure Inc/DoC will still do well, or even SotF if you want to use that. Basically the talents are pretty even for single-target with a slight advantage to FoN/HotW.. Multi-target should favour Inc/DoC, I'm not too sure about a SotF derivative but it's possible that combined with DoC it might reduce cycle times significantly. Would need SimCraft/a bunch of early raid logs to ascertain that, though.

  17. #1157
    So basicly.
    Single -target, FoN+Hotw,
    Multi target ( 3 or more) Inca+doc ? I guess we never will use inca+hotw ?

  18. #1158
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyteriz View Post
    So basicly.
    Single -target, FoN+Hotw,
    Multi target ( 3 or more) Inca+doc ? I guess we never will use inca+hotw ?
    Essentially. I'm trying to say most talent combinations are viable (this is a good thing), so there's a lot of different options. Inc/HotW would still be good for multi-target but I think the general consensus is that Inc/DoC will be better.

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    We simplify this to (1+0.25/(1+y))... DoC modifier becomes (1+0.25/(1+0.15)) = 1.217, or DoC contributes 21.7% more damage on normal levels. However, when y = 0.75 (a lot of mastery), the modifier is (1+0.25/(1+0.75)) = 1.143, or a 14.3% increase.
    You surely meant (1+y+0.25)/(1+y) as the simplified version, right? That's what you defined 'eclipse damage with DoC enabled' as... your percentages seem correct though.

  20. #1160
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraeusz View Post
    You surely meant (1+y+0.25)/(1+y) as the simplified version, right? That's what you defined 'eclipse damage with DoC enabled' as... your percentages seem correct though.
    It's the same thing, I just split up the numerator into ((1+y)+(0.25))/(1+y) = (1+y)/(1+y)+(0.25)/(1+y) = (1+0.25/(1+y))

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