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  1. #201
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    For a Semi-hardcore guild, I would honestly say it as long as the tanks are decent the class won't make that much of a difference if you are talking about Ra-den DPS or Lei-shen balls or anything like that
    For someone who's raided majority of this tier without a holydin, protpala or brm AND being forced to play my paladin, i dont agree
    While it doesn't make things impossible its a huge difference on 10man, for pretty much all fights.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaritte View Post
    I read in a post from Lore that was just a bug. They are preventing the dps meta from scaling with haste and they are going to give the tank meta a big buff so it is more useful.
    Ah well that makes sense, i read the topic line "DPS Legendary gem no longer procs for tanks" as a statement, no question/bug report. Then sadly i'm with Nillo on this, 5% more damage are 5% more damage. IF they'd change the procc to an use use effect with a reasonable cooldown this would be a total different situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    For someone who's raided majority of this tier without a holydin, protpala or brm AND being forced to play my paladin, i dont agree
    While it doesn't make things impossible its a huge difference on 10man, for pretty much all fights.
    We're out of paladins for this tier as well, hand of protection allowed for a lot of cheese so it's really annoying not having it. We played with a holy paladin last tier though, 4 set pvp bonus + blanketing the raid was quite strong ('overpowered'). I think disc+anything works quite well this tier, with disc+mist/fistweaver probably being the strongest combination due to the shear amount of extra-damage & multitarget fights. Really looking forward to the resto druid next tier

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    From what the blue post says:
    They're removing the haste scaling from the tank meta (which was kind of retarded anyway)
    They're increasing the rppm of the tanking meta by 50%.

    Bottom line it's still RNG and the dps meta gem will generally be better ~
    I agree with this although they did make it way closer. I'll probably be using it on some fights this tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Ah well that makes sense, i read the topic line "DPS Legendary gem no longer procs for tanks" as a statement, no question/bug report. Then sadly i'm with Nillo on this, 5% more damage are 5% more damage. IF they'd change the procc to an use use effect with a reasonable cooldown this would be a total different situation.

    If only... :'(

  4. #204
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    IF they'd change the procc to an use use effect with a reasonable cooldown this would be a total different situation.
    God that would be sexy

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian23 View Post
    In most raiding guilds I seem to find that its almost always a Pally MT with a Warrior OT, I'm curious if this is gonna continue?
    My guilds other tank is Pala, I REFUSE to let him become the MT! we're either equal, or im MT. Even though we're the same geared (cept the cloak, im behind >.>), he still gets higher health, higher mastery, higher everything, and less damage taken by miles, i don't let him, and he knows it.

    (Seriously why is it it warriors only get +15% stam, while DKs get +34%, Palas +25%, monks and druids +20%? makes me sad :< )

  6. #206
    We use a Brewmaster and Warrior. Neither of us are MT or OT by title. We just put whoever is the best for the job in that role.

  7. #207
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megu View Post
    My guilds other tank is Pala, I REFUSE to let him become the MT! we're either equal, or im MT. Even though we're the same geared (cept the cloak, im behind >.>), he still gets higher health, higher mastery, higher everything, and less damage taken by miles, i don't let him, and he knows it.

    (Seriously why is it it warriors only get +15% stam, while DKs get +34%, Palas +25%, monks and druids +20%? makes me sad :< )

    Because deff stance reduces all damage by.. 25% i think? or did it increase the armor? cant remember right.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  8. #208
    Field Marshal pixor's Avatar
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    Can someone explain me why prot warriors is the only class who is getting shitty 4 set? Like, monks and ferals is getting something that scales with vengeance and its pretty awesome, while palas is getting more self heal + a proc that makes one of their self heals free (and we all know that prot palas is lacking on self heals).

    But what do you guys think?

  9. #209
    It's 25% damage, but druids also get armor etc, still, doesnt stop them going on about how much lower hp mine is

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by pixor View Post
    Can someone explain me why prot warriors is the only class who is getting shitty 4 set? Like, monks and ferals is getting something that scales with vengeance and its pretty awesome, while palas is getting more self heal + a proc that makes one of their self heals free (and we all know that prot palas is lacking on self heals).

    But what do you guys think?
    Pally 2p is pretty much the same crap as warrior 4p so duhhh. (and well pally 4p and warri 2p are good so that's even a plus for the warrior since 2p is more accesible)
    Also DK 4p seems fairly weak now (I mean it was like 5 times as strong in the first iteration now it's just a joke)
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Megu View Post
    It's 25% damage, but druids also get armor etc, still, doesnt stop them going on about how much lower hp mine is
    Stam gems and double stam trinkets. With 850k HP unbuffed noone will be saying that :P.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Well anyway, if you got a scenario with

    swingA
    special
    swingB

    and you can't block the special you'll have to see if adding 20k to mastery instead of avoidance not only increase the chance to survive that situation without further assitance (either personal or external cooldowns, pooling rage or plain good old heals) but maybe can guarantee it somewhere down the road in combination with a sufficient health pool.
    So I crunched the numbers. There is a 9% chance for the unlucky combination with the stats that I mentioned above (50% avoidance 38% mastery). The amount of times throughout a progression boss when that unlucky combination would kill us (when stacking mastery would have saved us) is quite rare. So 9% of a rare occurrence is very rare but it DOES happen. The chance that it happens 2x in a minute? So low that it might not happen in an entire tier of raiding. Now only if we had something that prevented death once a minute. Oh wait... the legendary cloak of nizzao! Maybe it might actually be useful if we stack avoidance.

  13. #213
    Fair enough

    Given the amount of times i see a DK tank enter purgatory through an entire night it still scares me and i'm only the other tank, but what's with your healers? When somebody drops super low they'll start to pump a ton of mana into him, that's just how it is and calling it out on vent ("I got the cloak, don't you worry") probably won't prevent that.

    Don't get me wrong, the cloak addition will be helpful and it's not like avoidance is a super bad stat per se but if i hit my empowered shield block with 20k mastery to back it up i'm certain that nothing physical can kill me in the next few seconds. And as Espada already showed here ( http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post21902510 ) you can cover quite a bit of time with that.

    Nontheless we're probably forced to use avoidance anyway to keep up with the other tanks on dps, we just wanted to explain why we would prefer another route (ie: Riposte also working on mastery). Up to 25% additional crit, how on earth we could deny that?

  14. #214
    Oh yeah. Don't get me wrong. I think Mastery>>>Avoidanced as a defensive stat. I have been on every forum and on twitter lobbying Ghostcrawler to build in Mastery to risposte. I think it is unfair that they are trying to force us into avoidance. I am just trying to figure out if it is feasible to gear for avoidance. Your criticisms of my logic are very helpful. Because to be perfectly honest, I still don't know. Melee damage may be much higher this tier which would greatly increase the chance of dying from avoidance failure. In 25M, avoidance gets QUITE a bit more dangerous (possibly too much so). My healers may get pissed off that my health is jumping around. And 78% damage reduction from blocks is just so sexy (96% reduction if our 2pc heals crit).

    And on a side note about DPS. By the end of 5.3, most prot paladins have reached the haste soft cap. So their DPS wont scale nearly as much this tier.
    Last edited by Zaritte; 2013-07-30 at 04:30 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaritte View Post
    By the end of 5.3, most prot paladins have reached the haste soft cap. So their DPS wont scale nearly as much this tier.
    I was under the impression that neither the %attackspeed raidbuff nor % from seal of insight would help with that 50% soft cap (to lower the gcd, reaching breakpoints for sacred shield is a different story), so unless they'd neglect 4 piece (which is really good combined with Unbreakable spirit talent) and wear full h-tf reaching ~ 21.500 haste rating is still a tough goal.

    So what happens next tier? They can finally start to get some socket boni, not have to use two haste trinkets (because we probably all want the CDR trinket along with the amplify one?) and if there's still some leeway they can either increase their healthpool or damage reduction on SotR via mastery. Doesn't sound to bad to me, but yes their dps shouldn't scale as well as it does right now with the lack of another offensive stat like crit they can rely on. And add the weapon scaling problem i've already mentioned i few times, i'm still worried what will happen to monk, druids & DKs damage output when they manage to pick up a h-tf weapon (ilvl 580, ho!).

  16. #216
    Ok, can someone help me understand because I seem to be confused. We have a tank class that does significantly more damage than a warrior so much that in 10 man it is almost like adding half of a DPS and on 25M the difference is more but with less overall affect to raid DPS but we have people trying to argue that the class is fine because you can still get a kill, the extra DPS is just nice for that class. Essentially this argument seems to be saying, if you are wiping at sub 10% on any progression boss and you are not playing a paladin and are on a warrior, you are wiping because you have bigger problems than DPS. If there was 1 DPS class that was contributing such significant differences in damage done on a fight, should every other DPS class feel ok because if they just execute things are ok? Even though having the extra DPS makes EVERY fight easier. Period. If you cannot answer than more DPS will always make a fight easier, please do not respond to this because you have no basic grasp of raiding.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandius View Post
    If you cannot answer than more DPS will always make a fight easier, please do not respond to this because you have no basic grasp of raiding.
    QQ. pretty much everyone is upset with prot warrior dps this tier. There is a thread in MMO and on blizz pretty much dedicated to prot dps QQ. And we are also upset that we are being forced to choose between avoidance (w/25% dps increase) and mastery. We are all simply discussing which direction is the better one to take for 5.4. In 10M, I think avoidance tanking might be more valuable cause our dps matters more and the melee hits are not as bad so we can handle more avoidance failure. But in 25M, I am thinking that mastery capping is the way to go since staying alive in 25M is more difficult and more important than dps. In 5.4, I don't see anyone approaching warrior's 78% - 96% damage reduction on blockable attacks (if we cap mastery).

    So no one thinks dps doesn't matter. We just aren't sure that it matters enough to eliminate a guaranteed 78%-96% mitigation. Just seeing 96% reduction in my post gives me the chills. And if we equip [Thok's Tail Tip], those block healing crits will give us a 1% overall heal from melee damage, we reduce our mastery cap to 17102 (16734 if 3000 mastery buff is included in effect), and we get a fairly large dps boost from the 14% crit damage buff and the str proc - quite possibly the most OP trinket I have ever seen for warriors capping mastery and that is just the 553 normal version.

    As it stands this tier, I need a 20% dps increase to catch my paladin MT in dps sims. That gap will narrow slightly because of haste scaling even without riposte (and eliminating haste scaling on metas). And capping hit/exp/mastery we still have like 8k in stats for avoidance (10% crit which is like 11% dps and 13% with thok's tail tip). As for monks, I have no idea how we will catch them on dps but I am pretty sure that they won't come close to our mitigation next tier.
    Last edited by Zaritte; 2013-07-30 at 05:24 PM.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaritte View Post
    As it stands this tier, I need a 20% dps increase to catch my paladin MT in dps sims.
    "tier tier" huh? That's no 5.4 estimate? And what's about the added hps a paladin brings to the table? Not only selfheal from sacred shield & seal of insight on top of 5 stacks word of glory, equivalent to lay on hands (without forbearance though) every half a minute and battle healer thingy but the ability to drop a vengeance fed light's hammer during rampage? We happen to raid with a ton of paladins in our alt raid (but zero in the main one, mind you ~) and on every rampage phase there's just loud laughter in voice due to the fact that the raid isn't dropping at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaritte View Post
    As for monks, I have no idea how we will catch them on dps but I am pretty sure that they won't come close to our mitigation next tier.
    Yeah, permanent ~50%+ frontload damage reduction on *every* physical attack (doesn't matter if blockable or not) + 75-80% avoidance on demand (if played properly this already has a 2/3 uptime and will only increase with more secondary stats next tier) is totally subpar to our physical damage mitigation
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-07-30 at 05:43 PM.

  19. #219
    Prot Paladin's got a big nerf to their raid heals in 5.4. Glyph of battle healer no longer heals the raid based on damage. It now just moves the seal of insight from self healing to the raid healing. But yeah, I wont argue that paladin's hps are out of control.

    As for monks, this tier they were better. Currently we are at baseline 61% physical damage reduction from armor while the best geared brewmasters are at 30%. With their mastery and their shuffle they get another 35%-37% on all physical damage (but they still eat some of that stagger damage). This puts them just ahead of our armor. As for avoidance, yes they can get solid uptime on 80% avoidance (25% baseline + 5% miss + 20% shuffle parry + 30% elusive brew). Therefore while their elusive brew is running and our SBlock is running (with mastery cap), we take about 36% more physical damage than they take they take. They take 7% of blockable/avoidable damage during elusive brew and we take about 10% during sblock. So We take on average 50% more of blockable/avoidable damage during SBlock. Our 2pc changes things dramatically next tier though. (And our dps while stacking mastery wont even come close.)
    Last edited by Zaritte; 2013-08-01 at 05:42 PM.

  20. #220
    What are the numbers you're basing this on, WoL? Please beware that all numbers shown there are pre stagger. Regulary monks take less damage/hit than we do on our unmitigated ones. They take considerable less hits in total and have several tools to heal back up afterwards. We're argueable king when you look at single hits that we handled correctly and it could get better with crit block cap and 2 piece coming 5.4

    But we already said that we've no worries about our defense and i'm fairly certain that if a sole tanking class would be noticeable behind on this regard there would have been a fix to that, offensive potential is a totally different story.

    SBarrier is a *really* good tool and often times underrated given the fact that we can use it against any kind of damage, but sadly if we push it we give up a noticeable amount damage from the HR glyph.

    Prot paladins get nerfed over and over on the healing side but with sacred shield still scaling with both haste and vengeance it's still ridiculus strong for a healing talent especially when compared to our % heal (it's what, 15-20% of your health as absorb every 3-4s?). And seal of insight as a smart heal next tier is still a nice bonus, ticking for 50k every two-ish seconds.

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