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  1. #521
    Yes you are correct. The difference is smaller than my graph made me believe it is. So I revert that assumption.

    Code:
    ratio: 25/0     ratio: 20/5     ratio: 15/10    ratio: 10/15    ratio: 5/20     ratio: 0/25
    57,58           59,35           60,32           60,59           60,26           59,31
    3,01            1,24            0,27            0               0,33            1,28
    
    ratio: parry / dodge rating
    example with 30k str and 25k rating
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-08-27 at 06:55 PM.
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  2. #522
    Stood in the Fire
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    Nerfed our Lolstorm from 240% wep dmg to 160%? This is pretty weird nerf as the current version is shit? Or do they fear some prot warrior could actually use it? I hope its an error..

  3. #523
    No such a nerf is mostly PvP related.
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  4. #524
    edit: figured it out, 240% with a onehander, 120% with a twohander. They changed only that in T14.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    Nerfed our Lolstorm from 240% wep dmg to 160%?
    Due to the high amount of aoe fights in SoO bladestorm was actually quite strong for it's cooldown/uptime, netting you roughly 15% of your total damage for hitting a button every minute.

    So yes, it's a nerf.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-28 at 09:10 AM.

  5. #525
    seems awfully big considering BS was a dps loss compared to roar and shockwave for the entirety of mop so far as prot
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  6. #526
    I did some more sheet stuff. I combined dodge/parry on various rating levels ranging from 10 to 40k rating.











    Example. If you look at the 30k rating graphic.
    At 0 rating you will have a dodge/parry ratio of 1:0.
    At 30k rating you have a dodge/parry ratio of 0:1.

    To conclude it. In most cases you will live in a world around 15-30k stength and probably about 10-30k rating. If you even out your dodge/parry ratings you will most likely notice nearly no avoidance loss. So as long as you keep your dodge/parry rating even you should be fine.

    If you go all out on one side you will see a difference though. Thus if you have 20k rating to spare spend 10k in dodge and 10k in parry rating and it should be ok.

    It's actually pretty nice since strength and rating scales with gear. Thus your strength and your rating grow evenly and keep everything in line.
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-08-28 at 01:15 PM.
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  7. #527
    Wanted to comment on a question from a few days ago considering the legendary choices:
    Quote Originally Posted by Razile View Post
    what about legendary meta and back?shall we still use dps ones even with the nerf?
    Meta: 40% less effective for tank specced chars = instead of a flat 5% damage increase it's still a 3% damage increase. But you'll have to compare that to 20% flat damage reduction for roughly 2/3 of the time. Honestly? Imagine all your resto druids, warriors and paladins build a small cooldown chain popping ironbark/vigilance/hand of sacrifice on you for most of the time... wouldn't you take that over a 3% damage increase? And don't forget that most SoO fights have some sort of aoe involved where the dps meta still only attacks your primary target while the tanking meta works against anything and everyone. But there's one thing about it that we shouldn't underestimate: you have zero control about it, you can't guarantee that it's there when you really want/need it = it's nice to have but not mandatory.

    Cloak: without the healing component of AD it sounds weird at first but regulary you won't sit at 5% health, take a dottick and die.
    The dps one nets you 10 attacks with 20% of your attackpower (this includes vengeance) and about 1.04 times per minute (this should already reflect the 40% reduced procchance) and against up to 5 targets. At 250k attackpower that's up to 2.6 million extra damage per minute (against 5 targets, mind you -> 250*10*0.2*1.05*x; 525k against a single mob) at the price of one worthless secondary stat and the tank-procc. If you're really into maximising your dps the dps cloak is for you else i'd take the tank one and never look back - unless i screwed up badly on the math it sound like a decent damage buff to me, especially if you're fighting multiple targets. But again: you've no control about the damage procc either. It can procc seconds before a new wave of adds pop or when you already called for a damage stop.

    tldr; - unless maximising your dps is really a necessity (and then you shouldn't browse the warrior subforum, haha!) i'd take both tanking choices.

    Ps: if you upgrade your cloak now it keep it's upgrades (ilvl 608) after improving it to legendary quality, yay!
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-28 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #528
    Since we are on examples already. Lets take a look at one. We pick the 30k rating data and from that the data set dodge + parry with 30k strength.

    Dodge/parry ratio 1:0, thus 30k dodge rating, 0 parry rating, 30k strength:
    Dodge %: 28.50077131
    Parry %: 32.00825262
    Combined %: 60.50902393

    Dodge/parry ratio 1:1, thus 15k dodge rating, 15k parry rating, 30k strength
    Dodge %: 17.84169837 (dodge loss against 1:0 = 10.66%)
    Parry %: 44.8529191 (parry gain against 1:0 = 12.84%)
    Combined %: 62.69461747

    Dodge/parry ratio 0:1, thus 0 dodge rating, 30k parry rating, 30k strength
    Dodge %: 3.0129 (dodge loss against 1:0 = 25.49%)
    Parry %: 56.20622372 (parry gain against 1:0 = 24.20%)
    Combined %: 59.21912372
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-08-28 at 01:33 PM.
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  9. #529
    While toying around with math and graphs is nice zork you simply can't reach high amounts of avoidance without stacking both dodge and parry. We've a pool of about 25-30k avoidance rating and even after reforging and regemming we can barely move more than 10k avoidance rating around.

    ie:
    only 13 items with dodge http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...45;crs=1;crv=0
    only 16 items with parry http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...46;crs=1;crv=0
    and out of that small pool 7 have both on it http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...rs=1:1;crv=0:0

    And i'd stick to 25k strength for further comparisions due to 26k being the maximum possible (well reasonable) achieveable with ilvl 581 and that's out of reach for 99%+ of the forum contributers.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-08-28 at 01:43 PM.

  10. #530
    I know that. It should just give one an idea on the min-max values.
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  11. #531
    I don't know how you people go always so care free about random not justified nerfs. You get 15% of your damage by pressing a button? Ok, but you are surrendering 10% of your GCDs for that, delaying your rage gen, and you have better not need a Sbar. If you used it during Wind Lord you know what you are paying for that Bladestorm as prot.

    Maybe their numbers said that it was the go to talent as prot and nobody used DR and Shockwave, so a nerf was in order. Or maybe prot warriors are brutally outdpsing other tanks on AoE on the PTR. Just fucking lol. It would have been better to leave it 1min30 instead of putting to 1 min and then putting a 33% nerf to it. Net damage of Bladestorm: the same. GCDs spent: +50%. Thanks for improving the talent Blizzard.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-08-28 at 05:03 PM.

  12. #532
    Stood in the Fire
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    Yep its a totally useless talent in current content, even if it was 300% weapon damage. Maybe usefull in some gimmick add fight where there is a new wave of adds spawning every couple seconds for a short perioid of time, as we dont have any other constant AoE than this shitty Bladestorm. Even then if its current content, i wouldnt like being vulnerable to loads of adds hitting me while i cant use Barrier. I know, you can pop SBlock and then Bladestorm but it still leaves you with lost rage due to missed Revenges and SS and maybe a death as you couldnt pop Defensives or Barrier. You can ofc cancel it but i wouldnt like to be on my toes with a cancel macro every time i use it..

    Solution to this would be TC leaving "electric residue" to the ground that lasts atleast 6 seconds. Sorta like consecration but its a bit different and would be fun and usefull. It could also slow enemies in it, as Piercing Howl kinda sucks with the ragecost and such. I have suggested this alot in official forums but Blizz doesnt seem to see this as a worthwhile change.

    Any ideas? I want reliable AoE!
    Last edited by Mortalmansikka; 2013-08-28 at 05:32 PM.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    Any ideas? I want reliable AoE!
    You can't have a bleed AND a consecrate effect together, would be far too strong. I think our AoE will be fine with the buffs with a lot more revenges also due to dodge/parries.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but we are getting a 60% increase to deep wounds damage, around 32% crit chance (if going D/P), extra rage for more cleaves, more revenges and a 40% threat increase. That won't look to bad along side the others if you take into account the BrM nerf that just hit as well.

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  14. #534
    Gents (and ladies?), I'm going to start a post on AskMrRobot's forums regarding our 5.4 stat weights and I wanted to get your feedback beforehand to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass. I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether or not AMR is shit, I'd like to hear your opinions/corrections/additions regarding the following statements.

    -------

    With there being roughly 3 levels of tank incoming damage per tier 25H > 25N/10H > 10N, some protection warriors may want to emphasize survival or dps in their gearing strategy. Combined with the creation of the Theck-Meloree Index(TMI) and its inclusion in Simc which allows us to generate stat weights for both the smoothness of damage intake and dps (but not both at the same time), the introduction of the Riposte mechanic, and the Tier 16 Prot 2pc, etc the landscape has shifted a great deal as far as stat weighting goes. What we seem to be seeing, based off 5.4 Prot Warrior thread at mmo-champion and the developmental version of Simc is this:

    Survival Focused
    Hit/Exp > Stam > Mastery > Strength/Dodge/Parry > Crit
    Stam is by far the biggest driver of TMI (the smoothness metric) after Hit/Exp, followed by Mastery for the same reasons it was good last tier. Lots of both of these coupled with the T16 Prot 2pc has the potential to make you practically invulnerable, literally reducing physical damage taken (or healing it back) by up to about 95%.

    Balanced
    Hit/Exp > Dodge/Parry > Strength/Crit > Mastery - Adjust Stam to suit
    If you want to be highly survivable but still do high levels of dps, you want to prioritize the stats that contribute the most to both goals. Hit(7.5%) and Exp(15%) are the strongest drivers of both smoothness and dps. Dodge/Parry come next contributing to survival through avoidance and rage generation through extra revenge procs and contributing to dps through the Riposte mechanic which will be up basically 100% of the time and through additional revenge procs. Strength converts into Parry at roughly a 1:1 basis and is a decent contributor to dps as well. Mastery does nothing to increase our dps hence the sudden reversal of its priority.

    DPS Focused
    Hit/Exp > Dodge/Parry > Crit > Strength > Mastery - Adjust Stam to suit
    See all the reasoning above. Some may wonder why Crit doesn't come before Dodge/Parry. The reasoning is simple, Dodge/Parry provide 75% of the dps potential of Crit and you gain a whole bunch of avoidance. However, if you are truly suicidal please move Crit ahead of Dodge/Parry.

    Other Thoughts
    Crit is at least twice as good as Strength as far as dps potential and does contribute to smoothness to some degree because the heal from the 2pc (among others) can crit.
    The 2pc will be incredibly important to the smoothness of your damage intake. You will want to get it as soon as possible.
    You gain more Stamina per item level budget on trinkets than anything else, so if you need more Stam get Stam trinkets first. Enchants are also over budget for Stam so that would be next. Gem Stam as a last resort and only if you feel you need more Stam.
    Gems should be used wherever possible for secondary stats such as Dodge/Parry/Crit/Mastery because you get 320 of the stat, versus 240 stam or 160 of a primary stat.
    Due to diminishing returns it is most optimal to have Parry and Dodge balanced against each other in a 2/3 ratio. Practically though, as long as they are within about 5000 rating of each other it will make very little difference in total avoidance (less than 0.5%) and with our gearing choices it will be very hard to have a greater disparity than this so don't worry too much about it.
    Last edited by Tehpounderer; 2013-08-30 at 01:12 PM.

  15. #535
    It would be as bad as having DoT diseases, Death & Decay / Blood Boil? Not like I do want their tools, I like the warrior set on aoe. Fairly sure that Blizzard idea for the "I really need to get aggro" situations is Mocking Banner and either Dragon Roar & Bladestorm, even though they are working really hard to make BS useless as prot.

    PD: Monk recent "nerfs" are tooltip fixes. They are not touching those monstrosities until they get the class % numbers they expect. Well, besides Keg Smash. Its numbers were probably overflowing the servers or something and they had to nerf it a bit.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-08-28 at 08:26 PM.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    You can't have a bleed AND a consecrate effect together, would be far too strong. I think our AoE will be fine with the buffs with a lot more revenges also due to dodge/parries.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but we are getting a 60% increase to deep wounds damage, around 32% crit chance (if going D/P), extra rage for more cleaves, more revenges and a 40% threat increase. That won't look to bad along side the others if you take into account the BrM nerf that just hit as well.
    Our AOE is obviously much better next patch but the BrM I tank with still pulls almost any trash off me with a single kegsmash...

  17. #537
    With there being roughly 3 levels of tank incoming damage per tier 25H > 25N/10H > 10N, some protection warriors may want to emphasize survival or dps in their gearing strategy. Combined with the creation of the Theck-Meloree Index(TMI) and its inclusion in Simc which allows us to generate stat weights for both the smoothness of damage intake and dps (but not both at the same time), the introduction of the Riposte mechanic, and the Tier 16 Prot 2pc, etc the landscape has shifted a great deal as far as stat weighting goes. What we seem to be seeing, based off 5.4 Prot Warrior thread at mmo-champion and the developmental version of Simc is this:

    ------
    Sounds ok
    ------

    Survival Focused
    Hit/Exp > Stam > Mastery > Strength/Dodge/Parry > Crit
    Stam is by far the biggest driver of TMI (the smoothness metric) after Hit/Exp, followed by Mastery for the same reasons it was good last tier. Lots of both of these coupled with the T16 Prot 2pc has the potential to make you practically invulnerable, literally reducing physical damage taken (or healing it back) by up to about 95%.

    -----
    Please remove that stamina out of the stat order. There is only one case where stam increases your survivability ... if you dont have a heal. If you got a healer (you probably should for raiding) then you will go for mastery all the way up to 19xxx (assuming you got a mastery buff in your raid) or even 22xxx (no mastery in raid). After reaching this cap additional mastery is worth as much as ... well haste. Second stat to go for is either crit or parry/dodge, depending how good you play. Although total damage taken using avoid is lower, crit gives you more rage to use when you need it, you have more control on your damage taken. This is comparable to Paladins using mastery > haste for maximum reduction or the other way round for maximum control.
    So priority is: Hit/exp > mastery > crit/avoid depending on playstyle
    This setup tends to be favored for 25hc.
    -----

    Balanced
    Hit/Exp > Dodge/Parry > Strength/Crit > Mastery - Adjust Stam to suit
    If you want to be highly survivable but still do high levels of dps, you want to prioritize the stats that contribute the most to both goals. Hit(7.5%) and Exp(15%) are the strongest drivers of both smoothness and dps. Dodge/Parry come next contributing to survival through avoidance and rage generation through extra revenge procs and contributing to dps through the Riposte mechanic which will be up basically 100% of the time and through additional revenge procs. Strength converts into Parry at roughly a 1:1 basis and is a decent contributor to dps as well. Mastery does nothing to increase our dps hence the sudden reversal of its priority.

    -----
    Balanced means you aim for dps too so priority is:
    Hit/exp > avoid > crit > strength
    Why? Because crit contributes to damage way more than strength while still increasing rage generation and therefore survivability.
    This seems to be the best setup for 10 mans
    -----

    DPS Focused
    Hit/Exp > Dodge/Parry > Crit > Strength > Mastery - Adjust Stam to suit
    See all the reasoning above. Some may wonder why Crit doesn't come before Dodge/Parry. The reasoning is simple, Dodge/Parry provide 75% of the dps potential of Crit and you gain a whole bunch of avoidance. However, if you are truly suicidal please move Crit ahead of Dodge/Parry.

    Other Thoughts
    Crit is at least twice as good as Strength as far as dps potential and does contribute to smoothness to some degree because the heal from the 2pc (among others) can crit.

    -----
    Crit is important because of extra rage rest is nice to have but not important
    -----
    The 2pc will be incredibly important to the smoothness of your damage intake. You will want to get it as soon as possible.
    You gain more Stamina per item level budget on trinkets than anything else, so if you need more Stam get Stam trinkets first. Enchants are also over budget for Stam so that would be next. Gem Stam as a last resort and only if you feel you need more Stam.
    Gems should be used wherever possible for secondary stats such as Dodge/Parry/Crit/Mastery because you get 360 of the stat, versus 240 stam or 160 of a primary stat.
    Due to diminishing returns it is most optimal to have Parry and Dodge balanced against each other in a 2/3 ratio. Practically though, as long as they are within about 5000 rating of each other it will make very little difference in total avoidance (less than 0.5%) and with our gearing choices it will be very hard to have a greater disparity than this so don't worry too much about it.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    There is only one case where stam increases your survivability ... if you dont have a heal.
    Theck disagrees with you, but it is reasonable to add adjust stamina to suit to all of them.

  19. #539
    I'm surprised most people seem to be focus only on "smooth damage" and "dps". TDR is an interesting measure and, even if it's not THE absolute measure for tanking, it's still quite important.
    Also, wouldn't Dodge/Parry > Mastery > Crit be a more "balanced" optimization? Having Dodge/Parry > Crit > Mastery for both "balanced" and "dps" optimization seems weird, while Avoidance > Mastery > Crit looks like a proper happy medium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehpounderer View Post
    Mastery does nothing to increase our dps hence the sudden reversal of its priority.
    As far as I know, crit block will keep enraging us (thus giving us some rage+enrage), so Mastery does increase our dps somehow.
    Warrior soloing spreadsheet.

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  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehpounderer View Post
    Theck disagrees with you, but it is reasonable to add adjust stamina to suit to all of them.
    Yeah adjusting Stamina is ok but when Stamina is listed in the stat priority we will see all those non thinking wannabe tanks gemming all the way those funny blue stamina sockets and the healers are the poor pigs needing to get them up again ^^

    Senen: Well as tehpounderer said: for maximum dps crit is worth much more than avoid but going that way makes you squishy as hell. The second point is that avoid devalues mastery. The two roll system makes more mastery less desirable if you have a lot of avoid, because the gain is not that high that it outvalues the additional rage from crit especially as you can't reach that sweet mastery cap when you prefer avoid over mastery.

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