[5.4] Protection Warrior

[FTW]

@FTW

To clarify, Slooty was not saying he would abhor avoidance gear, but rather, for gemming only, he would be going for crit as that is when the heaviest DR sets in... those last few stat points you get from gems. Do you agree?

@Yellowfive

This might be a reason to allow the selection of one set of stat weights for gear, and another for gems in AMR.

Yes of course I agree. I think it makes sense, the gemming hardly seems worth it and picking up some full crit and extra crit stam gems makes sense if it isn't barely worth it to gem full avoidance AND gain some extra damage out of it.

Edit: question is, do YOU agree?

[Deleted]

@tehpounderer: you wrote your APL like:

actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_slam
actions.normal_rotation+=/revenge
actions.normal_rotation+=/battle_shout,if=rage<rage.max-20
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_block
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_barrier,if=buff.shield_barrier.down&rage>75
actions.normal_rotation+=/thunder_clap
actions.normal_rotation+=/demoralizing_shout
actions.normal_rotation+=/impending_victory,if=talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/victory_rush,if=!talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/devastate

Wouldn't it make more sense to change it to something like:

actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_block
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_barrier,if=buff.shield_barrier.down&rage>75
actions.normal_rotation+=/demoralizing_shout
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_slam
actions.normal_rotation+=/revenge
actions.normal_rotation+=/battle_shout,if=rage<rage.max-20
actions.normal_rotation+=/thunder_clap
actions.normal_rotation+=/impending_victory,if=talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/victory_rush,if=!talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/devastate

to ensure maximum benefit of glyph of hr?

[Deleted]

There's no real DR on avoidance as the value of it goes up the more you have of it... You getting less and less from dodge / parry /strength is just to cancel out that effect.

[sirmo7]

guys im raiding 10M and i wanted to try dodge/parry for last raid in TOT, can u check my character pls and tell me if there is anything wrong

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Madwar/simple

also i'm using more parry gems and reforge to increase revenge dmg

[Deleted]

Well ... testing on live gives your healers an first (and surely more bad than in one week) impression since you miss that extra rage from crits you can use for more sbar but maybe you can share your healers impressions with us?

[Tehpounderer]

For kicks, I re-gemmed the theoretical BiS list I've been working with to ease closer to the hit/exp cap and grab more crit rather than avoidance.

Gemming Avoidance/Stam (raid buffed):

311k dps, 59.8k dtps, 194 tmi
17.62% dodge, 41.51% parry, 10.01% crit, 1.139m health

Gemming Crit (raid buffed):

323k dps, 60.5k dtps, 237 tmi
17.34% dodge, 41.14% parry, 15.35% crit, 1.107m health

Seems pretty clear.

[Gliff]

Sloot is wrong. It is not just a couple percents of avoidance you lose by gemming/reforging Crit.

On PTR I have a copy of my warrior set up in max avoidance build with 54.2% Dodge and Parry.

On PTR I have a copy of my warrior set up in max mastery build with 37% Dodge and Parry.

Going mastery is the same lose of avoidance as going full crit so if Sloot did what he is talking about he would be losing 17% avoidance. Thats not an insignificant ammount. Not to mention how many fights will have multiple targets that need to be tanked on Heroic mode. Worrying about Riposte being down and going crit is just dumb in my opinion.

(From my experience and what I have seen on stream for bosses I have not tested on heroic. Please feel free to correct me where I am wrong or add a boss that I missed where your Riposte will basically always be up)

Immerseus: Little adds to tank aswell as the boss
Protectors: Constantly tanking something
Norushen: Constant stream of big adds to tank
Galakras: Always trash to tank in P1 and the tank swap in P2 is faster then 20 seconds
Shamans: Constantly tanking something
Nazgrim: Constant stream of ads to tank
Spoils: Always tanking something
Paragons: Always tanking a boss

That's 8/14 that i know of that your riposte will basically be up the whole fight.

[sirmo7]

For kicks, I re-gemmed the theoretical BiS list I've been working with to ease closer to the hit/exp cap and grab more crit rather than avoidance.

Gemming Avoidance/Stam (raid buffed):

311k dps, 59.8k dtps, 194 tmi
17.62% dodge, 41.51% parry, 10.01% crit, 1.139m health

Gemming Crit (raid buffed):

323k dps, 60.5k dtps, 237 tmi
17.34% dodge, 41.14% parry, 15.35% crit, 1.107m health

Seems pretty clear.

u sure that your numbers r correct? changed gems from avoidance to crit only result in (.28 + 0.37) = 0.65% less avoidance?

[Tehpounderer]

@tehpounderer: you wrote your APL like:

actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_slam
actions.normal_rotation+=/revenge
actions.normal_rotation+=/battle_shout,if=rage<rage.max-20
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_block
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_barrier,if=buff.shield_barrier.down&rage>75
actions.normal_rotation+=/thunder_clap
actions.normal_rotation+=/demoralizing_shout
actions.normal_rotation+=/impending_victory,if=talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/victory_rush,if=!talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/devastate

Wouldn't it make more sense to change it to something like:

actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_block
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_barrier,if=buff.shield_barrier.down&rage>75
actions.normal_rotation+=/demoralizing_shout
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_slam
actions.normal_rotation+=/revenge
actions.normal_rotation+=/battle_shout,if=rage<rage.max-20
actions.normal_rotation+=/thunder_clap
actions.normal_rotation+=/impending_victory,if=talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/victory_rush,if=!talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/devastate

to ensure maximum benefit of glyph of hr?

So I simmed that quickly. Virtually the same dps but a significant (10%) reduction in dtps and better tmi due to increased SBar uptime. Your changes made sense but I'm not seeing why they would cause this result. What am I missing?

- - - Updated - - -

u sure that your numbers r correct? changed gems from avoidance to crit only result in (.28 + 0.37) = 0.65% less avoidance?

Pretty sure. And to clarify, I did NOT reforge to crit, just gemmed crit from avoidance and stam... Reforge was still avoidance oriented. I picked up 3200 crit, 160 hit and 160 exp from 1680 stam, 640 dodge, 640 parry, 480 mastery and small error on the old gear set that accounts for the other 80.

Here's the gear:

head=faceguard_of_the_prehistoric_marauder,id=99409,upgrade=2,gems=indomitable_primal_160exp_120hit,reforge=mastery_dodge
neck=blackfuses_blasting_cord,id=105622,upgrade=2
shoulders=pauldrons_of_violent_eruption,id=105416,upgrade=2,gems=160crit_160sta_160crit_160sta,enchant=300sta_100dodge
chest=earthbreakers_steaming_chestplate,id=105512,upgrade=2,gems=160parry_160dodge_320crit_160crit_120sta,enchant=300sta
waist=untarnishable_greatbelt,id=105587,upgrade=2,gems=320exp_160hit_120sta_320crit,addon=nitro_boosts,reforge=mastery_dodge
legs=legguards_of_the_prehistoric_marauder,id=99410,upgrade=2,gems=320crit_320crit,enchant=430sta_165dodge
feet=ominous_mogu_greatboots,id=105588,upgrade=2,gems=160crit_120sta,enchant=140mastery
wrists=bracers_of_sordid_sleep,id=105415,upgrade=2,gems=320crit,enchant=170dodge
hands=shockstriker_gauntlets,id=105435,upgrade=2,gems=160parry_160dodge_160crit_120sta_320crit,enchant=150sta,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
finger1=galakrond_control_band,id=105492,upgrade=2,gems=160crit_120sta
finger2=ring_of_the_iron_tomb,id=105536,upgrade=2,gems=320crit,reforge=hit_parry
trinket1=curse_of_hubris,id=105645,upgrade=2
trinket2=vial_of_living_corruption,id=105568,upgrade=2
back=qianying_fortitude_of_niuzao,id=102250,upgrade=2,gems=320exp,enchant=200sta,reforge=mastery_dodge
main_hand=encapsulated_essence_of_immerseus,id=105417,upgrade=2,gems=320exp,enchant=rivers_song
off_hand=hellscreams_shield_wall,id=105693,upgrade=2,gems=320exp_320exp,enchant=170parry,reforge=mastery_parry

[sirmo7]

so we can say 30k health converted to 5% crit? if this is right, i think its very nice gain

[Tehpounderer]

so we can say 30k health converted to 5% crit? if this is right, i think its very nice gain

Yes, that's accurate. The health and small amount of avoidance.

[Yellowfive]

Thanks for the feedback -- yeah I'm pretty tempted to try the avoidance-based build once 5.4 goes live as well. It might be worth recommending as the default just because it's fun to do more damage, and it doesn't really hurt your durability that much.

That said -- you guys don't think that going a bit more stamina heavy while learning a new tier of content would be worthwhile? I would think that a lot of tanks are going to be a tad under-geared starting in SoO, and stamina has traditionally been a very good gearing suggestion in those cases. I have spent too much time coding and haven't had a chance to spend time with bosses on the PTR, but given that the average tank is going to be about 30 ilvls below T16 10m normal level (assuming that the average 10m normal tank will be in ~522-525 ilvl gear right now), which is the equivalent to tanking ToT in ~492-496 ilvl gear... I feel like tanks are going to feel a bit squishy right out the gates.

Now if you're sporting 535+ ilvl... I feel like that opens up a few more options -- an ilvl535 tank with a "medium" stamina strategy will have about the same hp as an ilvl522 tank with a "high" stamina strategy.

Thoughts? I know that a lot of people who kick around these forums come from a perspective of higher ilvl gear, and yeah, I would definitely recommend dropping stamina a bit to maximize as best fits your raid team as you get better gear. But most people just aren't there -- I'll run a report on average ilvls for the past 500k characters loaded on AMR this week, but I would be surprised if more than 5-10% were above ilvl525 or so.

[Deleted]

I can understands Sloots general idea but if he really thinks that avoidance get worse rather soon why wouldn't he reforge into crit as well?

I'm at 21.500 avoidance rating and 800k hitpoints right now, that's 42% avoidance post DR. Going all out for crit (gems + reforges) still leaves me at 11.000 avoidance rating, that's 32% avoidance post DR. With better itemisation and a a lot more itemlevel (580ish) i might be able to get to 32.000 avoidance rating (which is the added difference of 10.5k from the two), putting me at 51% avoidance post DR. So yeah, there is a measureable difference in the higher/highest avoidance regions.. but is it high enough to start ignoring avoidance? It's only 1% less or still a 9/10 gain on avoidance and the added offensive benefit from Riposte remains untouched.

20 gemslots * 320 rating = 6400, that's (in my case) either 7% avoidance & 8% crit or 10.67% crit - avoidance is the clear winner to me as long as Riposte keeps working. When it's not up it's rather likely that i won't have vengeance up as well and 2.67% more crit on (almost) zero attackpower won't make any difference at all.

@d2klein
I don't get it, both lists are basically the same, all you did was placing abilities at the start of the list that are off the gcd which isn't important for the program. As expected i didn't get any different results from the orginal to the altered version.

@Yellowfive
As already said the high stamina setting in general is never wrong for a beginner tank and while raiding undergeared.

so we can say 30k health converted to 5% crit? if this is right, i think its very nice gain

I doubt that, 5% crit is over 9 gemslots (3000 rating), close to 12 if we get it via Riposte. Every gemslot is worth about 4400 health raidbuffed so we'd trade over 40k health for direct crit or way over 50k for Riposte. But a 5% damage increase in exchange for fourty- or fifty-something thousand health is still really good when we're talking about one million health raidbuffed.

[Khorm]

Which legs would you take out of the T15 Heroic ones.

DPS:
1154 Crit
961 Master

Prot:
1251 Parry
853 Hit.

[SirReal]

Which legs would you take out of the T15 Heroic ones.

DPS:
1154 Crit
961 Master

Prot:
1251 Parry
853 Hit.

im a big fan of getting my hit/exp from gear and having my gems do the secondaries for me....so in this case id take the prot ones.

[CollisionTD]

Also note that Simc has a bug where Glyph of Incite Heroic Strikes still cost rage.

Fixed that just now.

Seems not working. All my Heroic Strikes are non crits on SimC 530-7.

That too. It'll be out in the next release, which will prob happen sometime before the patch.

[Khorm]

For gems I'm guessing everyone will be going for the bonus? What gems will you be putting into Red, Blue, and Yellow for an Avoidance build.

[idefiler6]

Agility, Haste, Spirit for me. Easy peasy.

[sirmo7]

i've tried gemming and i would say the best results would be >>

red =parry
yellow = parry + dodge
blue = parry +hit/stamina

[Khorm]

Do we still want to keep parry and dodge equal?