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  1. #681
    You cannot put a price tag on stats so easily, especially not at the start of a new tier. Tanking is not a science, despite the work of Theck and others.

    If you gearing for the lowest and smoothest damage intake possible is what your raid needs, you gotta do it. Your lower damage could be compensated by a disc priest allowed to Atonement heal because you won't die so suddenly.
    If you going all out in crit is what's needed, you gotta do it. Your healers might be able to keep you up anyways and your Riposte-independent dps could be very useful.

    Point I'm making is, we can only give general guidelines like "if you stack this and that stat, it will have this effect". Use this to tailor your gear to your raid's needs and perhaps your own fun. How tanks play is very dependent on the raid group and the context of your own guild's situation will be the largest deciding factor.

  2. #682
    Finally went though and did my BIS lists. I never include trinkets because they are so situational. PLEASE COMMENT AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU AGREE/DISAGREE AND WHY. I left off The Heirloom weapons/shield off of Garrosh.

    Boss drop Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nc&usp=sharing

    EDIT: I merged all three into the one link above for convenience.
    Last edited by Gliff; 2013-09-10 at 11:55 AM.

  3. #683
    Yours is very similar to mine, Gliff. Glad to see that many of our good pieces will drop off of Immerseus.
    Skoldier for life.

  4. #684
    Looks good Gliff, Now i'm not that up to date with all items that can drop but shouldn't there be an amplify trinket aswell that should give us a decent amount of stats or am I pretty much 5 weeks behind on some change I missed?

    I think it's this one i meant; http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=104613

    Granted might not be the first trinket I'd go for but I'd surely like it in my arsenal
    Last edited by Odeanathus; 2013-09-08 at 06:08 AM.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  5. #685
    im after the dodge+self heal and stam+crit trinkets myself, just because their the ones my guilds MS tanks wont be after imo
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damocletian - Resto/Balance Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cletian/simple

  6. #686
    The riposte one it's the same I got when putting stat weights in wowhead, so I reckon we are good to go. And yes, Inmerseus is going to be lovely to spend coins on. Four items, the four BiS. Well, lovely until you start getting duplicates week after week.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-09-08 at 03:59 PM.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Finally went though and did my BIS lists. I never include trinkets because they are so situational. PLEASE COMMENT AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU AGREE/DISAGREE AND WHY. I left off The Heirloom weapons/shield off of Garrosh.

    Thanks for this information. I was considering the hit/mastery belt and tier shoulders instead of tier helm because both items would be weighted away from mastery. I was also considering being orc and using the axe from dark shaman as well.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Finally went though and did my BIS lists. I never include trinkets because they are so situational. PLEASE COMMENT AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU AGREE/DISAGREE AND WHY. I left off The Heirloom weapons/shield off of Garrosh.

    Mastery BIS Spreadsheet (BIS highlighted in red): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Xc&usp=sharing
    I'd probably include Thok's Tail Tip on the Mastery list since its a fairly large amount if you're already stacking it. Its still not bad for Riposte since the crit boost will add a fair bit of DPS.

  9. #689
    Was gone for the weekend, time to catch up on some things:
    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    PM'ed, check your inbox
    Woah, i didn't even know i had an inbox. You asked about my gemming in 5.4 which i answered in detail only a few posts above that ... so i don't know what to add

    @santa
    You're in the lucky position to not having hit/x pieces over hit/x pieces everywhere so gemming blue with parry/hit or expertise/hit is perfect for you Aim to get to 19.5k avoidance raidbuffed (i'm ignoring trinkets here in the calculation) and just even out dodge and parry via gems and reforges. This brings you to 770k hitpoints raidbuffed & ~ 39% avoidance post DR which sounds like a decent starting point for heroic progression. Keep some pure stamina gems/trinkets/enchants ready just in case you feel overwhelmed by magical burst (ie: soul barrier+current vp trinket, you can get it for just jp after 5.4!!!) - 930k would be possible if really necessary with a mediocre avoidance loss (-5% & 5.5k rating).

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Any point to model in execute in the rotation ? I mean, its a judgment call but it does happen.
    Not worth it while actively tanking & progressing, i'd prefer/recommend to keep sblock up instead for the HR glyph bonus. Of course i also execute like a madmen for rankings and fun but never during progression when it's crucial so i'd just leave that part out because we can get away with so much more when the initial race is over (eating stacks for more vengeance, wearing more dps oriented stuff, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Damosapien View Post
    I'm still prioritising parry over dodge, I think glyph of hold the line will give more dps than the 0.23 avoidance I'd lose if I altered ratings, and that's while I have only 4000 odd dodge and 10000 parry.
    that sound wrong?
    The idea is correct but the actual gains from relying on parry over dodge are minuscle, ie if we're talking about either 5.5% dodge or 5% parry from shifting 5k avoidance rating around and the actual damage gain on revenge from HtL glyph (assuming that we could make use of any procc): 5% more proccs times 50% more damage or 0.05*0.5=0.025 or 2.5% more average damage on revenge. Revenge contributes 20-25% to our total damage so it's theoretical gain of way less than <1% overall damage for 0.5% avoidance. For the sake of easy advices and a more balanced build i'd still recommend evening both avoidance stats out... but in the end it doesn't even matter (Linkin Park ho!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Looks good Gliff, Now i'm not that up to date with all items that can drop but shouldn't there be an amplify trinket aswell that should give us a decent amount of stats or am I pretty much 5 weeks behind on some change I missed?
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I'd probably include Thok's Tail Tip on the Mastery list since its a fairly large amount if you're already stacking it. Its still not bad for Riposte since the crit boost will add a fair bit of DPS.
    After nerfing it over and over it's almost worthless in it's current form when all it does for a riposte heavy warrior tank is providing him with 8% more critical hit damage (well at 40% critchance that's +3.2% damage after all) and for a mastery driven tank it's <1500 mastery rating with minor benefits to the other stats.

    While it's far from worthless i'd probably take 3500 stamina + x over that any day or 3% lifesteal + 2k dodge which sounds yummy!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeToast View Post
    [...] I doubt that gemming full avoidance is going to be the best even if you seriously outgear the content. As we see with current ToT warriors are already setting up a 'dps set' to tank the boss in dps gear because lowering their dtps is no longer an issue that needs to be taken into account. [...]
    We used dps sets for ToT because gearing defensively (either mastery or stam) did nothing for our damage output and vice versa. When we now go for avoidance we gain on both ends, defensive + offensive (via Riposte).

    5.3 = 100% def + 0% off OR 0% def & 100% off
    5.4 = 100% def + 75% off OR 0% def & 100% off
    (well, slightly more enrages from crits which could also count for the def side but i guess we can ignore those to make the point).

    That's a totally different situation this time. Exchanging trinkets for farm content is still the best/easiest way to increase our damage because regulary it's still a 100% def for 100% off trade but that's about it. And don't forget the biggest bonus: you don't have to 'steal' any crit/x pieces from the itempool which should make all your other plate dps happy
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-09-09 at 12:00 PM.

  10. #690
    Amplify seems to be a good choice for mastery builds. Avoidance builds benefit way too less from this trinket as theres no haste and way to less mastery to take advantage of and the added critical damage bonus is not worth the trinket slot. Most other trinkets will get more +damage or avoid than this one.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    After nerfing it over and over it's almost worthless in it's current form when all it does for a riposte heavy warrior tank is providing him with 8% more critical hit damage (well at 40% critchance that's +3.2% damage after all) and for a mastery driven tank it's <1500 mastery rating with minor benefits to the other stats.

    While it's far from worthless i'd probably take 3500 stamina + x over that any day or 3% lifesteal + 2k dodge which sounds yummy!
    Agreed but I believe not listing it in the Excel sheet at all is a mistake. It wouldn't be the first trinket I go for, but not listing it at all when like you said yourself 3.2+% damage just from the crit. Is surely not a bad Idea.

    I wasn't suggesting putting it as BiS but i'd want it in my arsenal (After all trinkets are so "fluid" from fight to fight it's hard to just call a BiS straight out of the gate for tanks)
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  12. #692
    Well all amplify trinkets are BiS for their specc (caster, healer, plate dps) so i doubt you'll pick it up anytime soon anyway

    Sure we can keep it on the list, i'm eyeing with Skeers myself for the ultimate aoe bomb (eng gloves + bloodbath + bladestorm + rapidly increasing crit chance of up to 50%) as long as i could manage to line it all up, didn't have enough time to test it excessively on the ptr.

    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    Amplify seems to be a good choice for mastery builds.
    It adds less mastery than the upgraded steadfast talisman or any form of Fortitude of the Zandalari and with the regulary low crit chance of the mastery build (-25% compared to an avoidance build) the added critical hit damage isn't *that* interesting anyway.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    It adds less mastery than the upgraded steadfast talisman or any form of Fortitude of the Zandalari and with the regulary low crit chance of the mastery build (-25% compared to an avoidance build) the added critical hit damage isn't *that* interesting anyway.
    H-WF is worth something between 1500 and 1700 Mastery, which is less than Fortidue sure, but if you aim at mastery > crit > avoid as stats then you won't have 25% crit less than an avoidance build maybe around 10% less and if not tanking you will even have more crit than avoidance builds. So i think it's a quite good choice.

  14. #694
    a) why would you aim for crit > avoid in a mastery build? "Slightly more damage" isn't a satisfying answer
    b) Only 10% less?

    Crit block cap = 19.500
    hit cap = 2550
    exp cap = 5100

    (excluding trinkets)
    5.2 secondary stats cap = ~ 24.000
    5.3 secondary stats cap = ~ 34.000
    5.4 secondary stats cap = ~ 44.000

    So ~27.000 secondary stats are locked, leaving us with 7.000 crit or avoidance this and 17.000 secondary stats next tier (best case). That's +3% crit vs +7% avoid in current BiS gear and +7% crit vs +17% avoid in 5.4; but what's about the -25% from mastery? Even while ignoring avoidance entirely and favoring crit after mastery we're still at ~ -18% crit from stacking mastery and on the damage taken side we'd be miles behind at this point from "wasting" over 1/3 of our secondary stats on crit.

    Especially for a mastery build i'd emphasize on avoidance after reaching crit block cap because that's when DR isn't an issue at all and the difference between 24% and 41% avoidance isn't something i'd talk down easily when you won't have sblock up for 1/3 of your time tanking (due to charges).

    If we can weave the heroic amp trinket in there somewhere (warforged isn't needed, sadly it won't jump to 10% after upgrading) we could gain another 1600 mastery ... but our added crit damage bonus would only be half as high from stacking mastery in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    [...]if not tanking you will even have more crit than avoidance builds [...]
    Due to the lack of vengeance in this scenario that's not really relevant, damage will still be closer to nonexistant.

    edit: adjusted total secondary stats estimation for 5.4
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-09-09 at 02:54 PM.

  15. #695
    woaaa well sorry klaus ... did a mistake somewhere typing numbers into the calculator ... next time i'll be using excel

    The idea behind going crit after mastery is having more rage for additional barriers (haven't done the math on my own just heard about it) so you can "avoid" when needed and not avoid when avoided and probably useless as you aren't in danger.

    Even without sblock up, reaching the mastery cap leaves you with another 31% chance to block and avoidance makes all that mastery well less useful.

    Anyway we are discussing extremes that aren't reachable ... you won't be able to completely find a way around mastery in an avoidance build (at least if aiming for t16-2pc) and you won't be able to completely avoid avoidance if going for mastery > crit so the differences are of a more theoretical nature and won't be that high.

  16. #696
    i would like to share my feeling when i switched to parry/dodge build

    i had 85% mastery (raid buff) and clearing tot without problems, but i wanted to try parry/dodge before 5.4, i was really shocked that parry/dodge build was making lotof rage and much better than mastery (i tested it on TOT 10m raid real game not PTR), for first time i was able to use double Sblock + full Sbar ! (dont know if its ez for u)

    now im sure and happy that i will go parry/dodge for 5.4

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    The idea behind going crit after mastery is having more rage for additional barriers (haven't done the math on my own just heard about it) so you can "avoid" when needed and not avoid when avoided and probably useless as you aren't in danger.
    The general idea seems to be right but just from looking at crit vs avoidance in the example above (BiS mastery gear) it's 7% more crits from one hundred (100) ss+devs, that's 70 rage. The big rage gain is actually from all the crit blocks in this build, about every second melee swing (single target) or every 3s (multitarget).

    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    Anyway we are discussing extremes that aren't reachable ... you won't be able to completely find a way around mastery in an avoidance build (at least if aiming for t16-2pc) and you won't be able to completely avoid avoidance if going for mastery > crit so the differences are of a more theoretical nature and won't be that high.
    Actually it's possible to go for almost only mastery/x pieces this tier with several mastery/crit and some mastery/exp & mastery/hit pieces allowing you to fill the gemslots with more mastery or crit and further reforges into high crit ratings are achievable. You can't forgo mastery totally (one setpiece with it, on belt & legendary cloak as well) in an avoidance heavy built but after all a) both stats aren't bad for damage mitigation, avoidance only adds something on the offensive side as well b) when we're looking at over 35k secondary stats to spend freely and we end up with 2-3k in the "wrong" area that's nothing we'll be to worried about (for BiS, during progression we probably just pick up whatever drops first especially on 10M).

    @sirmo7
    And you didn't even experience the increased rage from revenge spam, the enrage uptime from ss/dev crits and riposte

  18. #698
    Alright, so I have everything pretty much set up well enough for tomorrow, I think (Still a few gems/pieces to tinker with). Doing 10 mans, so going for a full dodge/parry strategy.

    I just have two last questions.

    I've been thinking about my trinkets. I hadn't had much luck with ToT trinkets (Fort. of the Zandalari was the only one I got from Normal), so I was using the Exp/Strength SPA one for a while. And looking at it, I was thinking to switch out the Jade Warlord Figurine for it. It'd give me a hell-of a lot more Expertise (which I could then shift gems around more), as well as more avoidance stats. Good idea?

    Which brings me to my second question: How should I balance dodge/parry? I've read it doesn't really matter, I've read I should get more parry than dodge. So which is is? As it is, I've been going for Flashing/Subtle in Red/Yellow sockets; should that change?

    I'm starting a new 10 man for 5.4, so won't be going into Normals quite yet (My plan was Flex tomorrow, then ToT since the raid won't be stable and some people aren't geared enough for Normal Siege yet anyways), but I think this set-up would be fine. Thoughts/Concerns/Suggestions?

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post

    Which brings me to my second question: How should I balance dodge/parry? I've read it doesn't really matter, I've read I should get more parry than dodge.
    It really doesnt matter. The difference between going the "optimal" balance and max parry for me is literally .02% avoidance.

    EDIT: I just remembered that I had 2 dodge trinkets on PTR that I (and you) will not have tomorrow. Don't go full parry. It's still not enough to make a huge difference but its a lot more then the .02% I said before.

    EDIT #2: I'm setting up on live right now and gemming the following:

    Red: Parry
    Yellow: Dodge
    Blue: Parry/Stam (for 90+ stam/120+ avoidance)

    Reforging Dodge>Parry: 53.37%
    Reforging Parry>Dodge: 53.30%

    IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.
    Last edited by Gliff; 2013-09-09 at 10:48 PM.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    It really doesnt matter. The difference between going the "optimal" balance and max parry for me is literally .02% avoidance.

    EDIT: I just remembered that I had 2 dodge trinkets on PTR that I (and you) will not have tomorrow. Don't go full parry. It's still not enough to make a huge difference but its a lot more then the .02% I said before.

    EDIT #2: I'm setting up on live right now and gemming the following:

    Red: Parry
    Yellow: Dodge
    Blue: Parry/Stam (for 90+ stam/120+ avoidance)

    Reforging Dodge>Parry: 53.37%
    Reforging Parry>Dodge: 53.30%

    IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.
    Exactly how i planned on Gemming. I stocked up on all the gems as they have been less then 10g on Area 52 for months now so i am gtg there.

    I will be re-gemming, enchanting and reforging tonight, so once i am done ill try and post my stats.

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