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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    lol, thanks for pointing out which gems are available to me, i had no idea you could use dodge for yellow sockets *gasp*.
    My point is using dodge gem will benifit u more than crit

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    lol, thanks for pointing out which gems are available to me, i had no idea you could use dodge for yellow sockets *gasp*.
    Why are you giving him shit for helping you?

    If you are going for a max riposte build then you should not be gemming/reforging crit over avoidance stats.

  3. #683
    gemming crit: more damage taken, more damage done, spikier damage intake
    riposte build: less damage taken, more damage done, spikier damage intake
    mastery build: mediocre damage taken, less damage done, smooth damage intake

    so

    gemming crit: 2 negatives for 1 positive
    riposte build: 1 negative for 2 positives
    mastery build: 1 negative for 1 positive

    the logic is simple, to still see people talking about crit gemming is madness, its only viable if you only do lfr... and if that's true what the hell are you doing trying to tell people how to play?
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  4. #684
    I believe the point is this:

    Because of diminishing returns, the incremental gain from 320 dodge after you are at e.g. 12,000 dodge may be less valuable than 320 crit. It won't be game breaking in either case.

    Using theoretical BiS gear with 12k dodge, I arbitrarily added 1000 crit and 1000 dodge to the gear set. 1.66% crit versus 0.87% Dodge and 1.25% crit (from Riposte). As I said, not game breaking and it really comes down to personal preference and what you expect your Riposte uptime to be (basically, 100% as long as you are tanking something).

  5. #685
    I'm just curious why the only thought process in gemming full avoidance is purely to lower dtps, when there should be work put into seeing where the breakpoint is between the lowest dtps and the highest dps. I doubt that gemming full avoidance is going to be the best even if you seriously outgear the content. As we see with current ToT warriors are already setting up a 'dps set' to tank the boss in dps gear because lowering their dtps is no longer an issue that needs to be taken into account. I don't doubt for a second that early on we will see a need to push our dtps as low as possible but there will also be a dps requirement on fights, can only show that gemming and reforging full avoidance is indeed the best for dps AND lower dtps rather than a balance that allows for an acceptable level of dtps while allowing for higher dps.
    Last edited by OrangeToast; 2013-09-06 at 10:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by AWolf
    The first rule of Bolvar as Lich King is... You do not talk about Bolvar as Lich King.

  6. #686
    You cannot put a price tag on stats so easily, especially not at the start of a new tier. Tanking is not a science, despite the work of Theck and others.

    If you gearing for the lowest and smoothest damage intake possible is what your raid needs, you gotta do it. Your lower damage could be compensated by a disc priest allowed to Atonement heal because you won't die so suddenly.
    If you going all out in crit is what's needed, you gotta do it. Your healers might be able to keep you up anyways and your Riposte-independent dps could be very useful.

    Point I'm making is, we can only give general guidelines like "if you stack this and that stat, it will have this effect". Use this to tailor your gear to your raid's needs and perhaps your own fun. How tanks play is very dependent on the raid group and the context of your own guild's situation will be the largest deciding factor.

  7. #687
    Finally went though and did my BIS lists. I never include trinkets because they are so situational. PLEASE COMMENT AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU AGREE/DISAGREE AND WHY. I left off The Heirloom weapons/shield off of Garrosh.

    Boss drop Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nc&usp=sharing

    EDIT: I merged all three into the one link above for convenience.
    Last edited by Gliff; 2013-09-10 at 11:55 AM.

  8. #688
    Yours is very similar to mine, Gliff. Glad to see that many of our good pieces will drop off of Immerseus.

  9. #689
    Looks good Gliff, Now i'm not that up to date with all items that can drop but shouldn't there be an amplify trinket aswell that should give us a decent amount of stats or am I pretty much 5 weeks behind on some change I missed?

    I think it's this one i meant; http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=104613

    Granted might not be the first trinket I'd go for but I'd surely like it in my arsenal
    Last edited by Odeanathus; 2013-09-08 at 06:08 AM.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  10. #690
    im after the dodge+self heal and stam+crit trinkets myself, just because their the ones my guilds MS tanks wont be after imo
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  11. #691
    The riposte one it's the same I got when putting stat weights in wowhead, so I reckon we are good to go. And yes, Inmerseus is going to be lovely to spend coins on. Four items, the four BiS. Well, lovely until you start getting duplicates week after week.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-09-08 at 03:59 PM.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Finally went though and did my BIS lists. I never include trinkets because they are so situational. PLEASE COMMENT AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU AGREE/DISAGREE AND WHY. I left off The Heirloom weapons/shield off of Garrosh.

    Thanks for this information. I was considering the hit/mastery belt and tier shoulders instead of tier helm because both items would be weighted away from mastery. I was also considering being orc and using the axe from dark shaman as well.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Finally went though and did my BIS lists. I never include trinkets because they are so situational. PLEASE COMMENT AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU AGREE/DISAGREE AND WHY. I left off The Heirloom weapons/shield off of Garrosh.

    Mastery BIS Spreadsheet (BIS highlighted in red): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Xc&usp=sharing
    I'd probably include Thok's Tail Tip on the Mastery list since its a fairly large amount if you're already stacking it. Its still not bad for Riposte since the crit boost will add a fair bit of DPS.

  14. #694
    Was gone for the weekend, time to catch up on some things:
    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    PM'ed, check your inbox
    Woah, i didn't even know i had an inbox. You asked about my gemming in 5.4 which i answered in detail only a few posts above that ... so i don't know what to add

    @santa
    You're in the lucky position to not having hit/x pieces over hit/x pieces everywhere so gemming blue with parry/hit or expertise/hit is perfect for you Aim to get to 19.5k avoidance raidbuffed (i'm ignoring trinkets here in the calculation) and just even out dodge and parry via gems and reforges. This brings you to 770k hitpoints raidbuffed & ~ 39% avoidance post DR which sounds like a decent starting point for heroic progression. Keep some pure stamina gems/trinkets/enchants ready just in case you feel overwhelmed by magical burst (ie: soul barrier+current vp trinket, you can get it for just jp after 5.4!!!) - 930k would be possible if really necessary with a mediocre avoidance loss (-5% & 5.5k rating).

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Any point to model in execute in the rotation ? I mean, its a judgment call but it does happen.
    Not worth it while actively tanking & progressing, i'd prefer/recommend to keep sblock up instead for the HR glyph bonus. Of course i also execute like a madmen for rankings and fun but never during progression when it's crucial so i'd just leave that part out because we can get away with so much more when the initial race is over (eating stacks for more vengeance, wearing more dps oriented stuff, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Damosapien View Post
    I'm still prioritising parry over dodge, I think glyph of hold the line will give more dps than the 0.23 avoidance I'd lose if I altered ratings, and that's while I have only 4000 odd dodge and 10000 parry.
    that sound wrong?
    The idea is correct but the actual gains from relying on parry over dodge are minuscle, ie if we're talking about either 5.5% dodge or 5% parry from shifting 5k avoidance rating around and the actual damage gain on revenge from HtL glyph (assuming that we could make use of any procc): 5% more proccs times 50% more damage or 0.05*0.5=0.025 or 2.5% more average damage on revenge. Revenge contributes 20-25% to our total damage so it's theoretical gain of way less than <1% overall damage for 0.5% avoidance. For the sake of easy advices and a more balanced build i'd still recommend evening both avoidance stats out... but in the end it doesn't even matter (Linkin Park ho!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Looks good Gliff, Now i'm not that up to date with all items that can drop but shouldn't there be an amplify trinket aswell that should give us a decent amount of stats or am I pretty much 5 weeks behind on some change I missed?
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I'd probably include Thok's Tail Tip on the Mastery list since its a fairly large amount if you're already stacking it. Its still not bad for Riposte since the crit boost will add a fair bit of DPS.
    After nerfing it over and over it's almost worthless in it's current form when all it does for a riposte heavy warrior tank is providing him with 8% more critical hit damage (well at 40% critchance that's +3.2% damage after all) and for a mastery driven tank it's <1500 mastery rating with minor benefits to the other stats.

    While it's far from worthless i'd probably take 3500 stamina + x over that any day or 3% lifesteal + 2k dodge which sounds yummy!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeToast View Post
    [...] I doubt that gemming full avoidance is going to be the best even if you seriously outgear the content. As we see with current ToT warriors are already setting up a 'dps set' to tank the boss in dps gear because lowering their dtps is no longer an issue that needs to be taken into account. [...]
    We used dps sets for ToT because gearing defensively (either mastery or stam) did nothing for our damage output and vice versa. When we now go for avoidance we gain on both ends, defensive + offensive (via Riposte).

    5.3 = 100% def + 0% off OR 0% def & 100% off
    5.4 = 100% def + 75% off OR 0% def & 100% off
    (well, slightly more enrages from crits which could also count for the def side but i guess we can ignore those to make the point).

    That's a totally different situation this time. Exchanging trinkets for farm content is still the best/easiest way to increase our damage because regulary it's still a 100% def for 100% off trade but that's about it. And don't forget the biggest bonus: you don't have to 'steal' any crit/x pieces from the itempool which should make all your other plate dps happy
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-09-09 at 12:00 PM.

  15. #695
    Amplify seems to be a good choice for mastery builds. Avoidance builds benefit way too less from this trinket as theres no haste and way to less mastery to take advantage of and the added critical damage bonus is not worth the trinket slot. Most other trinkets will get more +damage or avoid than this one.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    After nerfing it over and over it's almost worthless in it's current form when all it does for a riposte heavy warrior tank is providing him with 8% more critical hit damage (well at 40% critchance that's +3.2% damage after all) and for a mastery driven tank it's <1500 mastery rating with minor benefits to the other stats.

    While it's far from worthless i'd probably take 3500 stamina + x over that any day or 3% lifesteal + 2k dodge which sounds yummy!
    Agreed but I believe not listing it in the Excel sheet at all is a mistake. It wouldn't be the first trinket I go for, but not listing it at all when like you said yourself 3.2+% damage just from the crit. Is surely not a bad Idea.

    I wasn't suggesting putting it as BiS but i'd want it in my arsenal (After all trinkets are so "fluid" from fight to fight it's hard to just call a BiS straight out of the gate for tanks)
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  17. #697
    Well all amplify trinkets are BiS for their specc (caster, healer, plate dps) so i doubt you'll pick it up anytime soon anyway

    Sure we can keep it on the list, i'm eyeing with Skeers myself for the ultimate aoe bomb (eng gloves + bloodbath + bladestorm + rapidly increasing crit chance of up to 50%) as long as i could manage to line it all up, didn't have enough time to test it excessively on the ptr.

    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    Amplify seems to be a good choice for mastery builds.
    It adds less mastery than the upgraded steadfast talisman or any form of Fortitude of the Zandalari and with the regulary low crit chance of the mastery build (-25% compared to an avoidance build) the added critical hit damage isn't *that* interesting anyway.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    It adds less mastery than the upgraded steadfast talisman or any form of Fortitude of the Zandalari and with the regulary low crit chance of the mastery build (-25% compared to an avoidance build) the added critical hit damage isn't *that* interesting anyway.
    H-WF is worth something between 1500 and 1700 Mastery, which is less than Fortidue sure, but if you aim at mastery > crit > avoid as stats then you won't have 25% crit less than an avoidance build maybe around 10% less and if not tanking you will even have more crit than avoidance builds. So i think it's a quite good choice.

  19. #699
    a) why would you aim for crit > avoid in a mastery build? "Slightly more damage" isn't a satisfying answer
    b) Only 10% less?

    Crit block cap = 19.500
    hit cap = 2550
    exp cap = 5100

    (excluding trinkets)
    5.2 secondary stats cap = ~ 24.000
    5.3 secondary stats cap = ~ 34.000
    5.4 secondary stats cap = ~ 44.000

    So ~27.000 secondary stats are locked, leaving us with 7.000 crit or avoidance this and 17.000 secondary stats next tier (best case). That's +3% crit vs +7% avoid in current BiS gear and +7% crit vs +17% avoid in 5.4; but what's about the -25% from mastery? Even while ignoring avoidance entirely and favoring crit after mastery we're still at ~ -18% crit from stacking mastery and on the damage taken side we'd be miles behind at this point from "wasting" over 1/3 of our secondary stats on crit.

    Especially for a mastery build i'd emphasize on avoidance after reaching crit block cap because that's when DR isn't an issue at all and the difference between 24% and 41% avoidance isn't something i'd talk down easily when you won't have sblock up for 1/3 of your time tanking (due to charges).

    If we can weave the heroic amp trinket in there somewhere (warforged isn't needed, sadly it won't jump to 10% after upgrading) we could gain another 1600 mastery ... but our added crit damage bonus would only be half as high from stacking mastery in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by d2klein View Post
    [...]if not tanking you will even have more crit than avoidance builds [...]
    Due to the lack of vengeance in this scenario that's not really relevant, damage will still be closer to nonexistant.

    edit: adjusted total secondary stats estimation for 5.4
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-09-09 at 02:54 PM.

  20. #700
    woaaa well sorry klaus ... did a mistake somewhere typing numbers into the calculator ... next time i'll be using excel

    The idea behind going crit after mastery is having more rage for additional barriers (haven't done the math on my own just heard about it) so you can "avoid" when needed and not avoid when avoided and probably useless as you aren't in danger.

    Even without sblock up, reaching the mastery cap leaves you with another 31% chance to block and avoidance makes all that mastery well less useful.

    Anyway we are discussing extremes that aren't reachable ... you won't be able to completely find a way around mastery in an avoidance build (at least if aiming for t16-2pc) and you won't be able to completely avoid avoidance if going for mastery > crit so the differences are of a more theoretical nature and won't be that high.

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