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  1. #101
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    I would honestly have said use Gaze instead of it, even in 10 man the vengeance is at the level where crit is vastly outweighing STR. Afaik, Gaze will have a much higher crit overall compared to the Primordius one

  2. #102
    Not sure what I'm going to do next patch really. Lots of parry and dodge on items, I might just try and piece together crit and mastery items while trying to keep the 4 set.

    Really don't want to gib my mastery though, I have a feeling I will have less than the current tier though with the lack of it on items.

  3. #103
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Not sure what I'm going to do next patch really. Lots of parry and dodge on items, I might just try and piece together crit and mastery items while trying to keep the 4 set.

    Really don't want to gib my mastery though, I have a feeling I will have less than the current tier though with the lack of it on items.
    I personally wouldn't bother with the 4 set, pretty weak given SW's cooldown and the fact that rage is never usually an issue anyway
    You would benefit much more from getting the thunderforged (bloodsoaked) pieces for the extra stats

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    I personally wouldn't bother with the 4 set, pretty weak given SW's cooldown and the fact that rage is never usually an issue anyway
    You would benefit much more from getting the thunderforged (bloodsoaked) pieces for the extra stats
    Yea, I'm a bit torn on that. I am not even using the 4 set for the current set, but the next one looks a bit better (very slightly). Seems really stupid that we are getting 4 sets that people are skipping because they aren't strong enough, yet others are so powerful.

    I am 10 man so bloodsoaked is pretty much out of the question to aim for. Maybe the offset pieces are similar stats anyway so the bonus from the 4 set is without penalty stat wise, I don't know yet.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    I would honestly have said use Gaze instead of it, even in 10 man the vengeance is at the level where crit is vastly outweighing STR. Afaik, Gaze will have a much higher crit overall compared to the Primordius one
    Thanks. Strength will give more parry, too. So double benefit.

  6. #106
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    So, Riposte got buffed to 75% from 50% and Revenge will now generate 20 rage up from 15. Awesome news? Awesome news.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  7. #107
    Now please add mastery into that riposte thingy and we can look for a bright near future. Else i don't know how to gear :x

  8. #108
    Even Ripost with 75% is a pathetic value when parry from strength isn't counted.
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Now please add mastery into that riposte thingy and we can look for a bright near future. Else i don't know how to gear :x
    Or make mastery scale up the Ripost % aswell.
    Last edited by Malm; 2013-07-09 at 11:54 PM.

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Now please add mastery into that riposte thingy and we can look for a bright near future. Else i don't know how to gear :x
    I think you won´t go for crit gems, if that is your concern. mastery will stay strong and the buff of Riposte will not touch that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malm View Post
    Even Ripost with 75% is a pathetic value when parry from strength isn't counted.

    Or make mastery scale up the Ripost % aswell.
    Why all the hate for Riposte? Some blue guy said they estimated 30% crit in a raid for a tank. Perhaps more for progress tanking tanks. I think every third attack being a crit is awesome and far from pathetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    mastery will stay strong and the buff of Riposte will not touch that.
    It comes down to the question if we need the superior physical damage reduction from critical block or if we can get away with relying on pure avoidance + a weaker shield block, thus greatly increasing our potential damage output. Roughly 20k mastery (that's the amount needed for the magical crit block cp) is equal to 15k crit rating via riposte or 25%* crit chance which isn't something we can talk down easily. I could even go so far to say that we should consider gemming avoidance, now pick your stone for my lapidation

    * that's 25% more Ultimatum proccs as well!

    edit: just toy around with Theck's tankadins spreadsheet to see the impact of adding avoidance and the almighty and scary diminishing returns. Yes, at some point you'll get less bang for your buck, yet still full crit bonus from Riposte.

    We're currently at roughly 35k secondary stats in 54x gear (with two secondary stat trinkets), if we could get all of that except for the 7.650 connect-stats into avoidance we'd be sitting at 45% crit raidbuffed all of the sudden while still rocking almost 50% avoidance (+5% miss!) after DR.

    We should be able to gain another 20% secondary stats from the new tier, that's another 7k rating or 5% avoidance after DR and +8.75% crit chance. In total we'd be at over 50% crit raidbuffed with a considerable huge amount of avoidance (60% incl. miss) as long as we're tanking something at the end of this expansion... woah!

    edit2: for my beginning question -> In it's current form we'd only be able to maintain 60% uptime (best case scenario) on a guaranteed critical block due to the charges/limitation on the shield block ability (i've talked about that over at the tankguide thread today as well), thus having the permanent benefits of avoidance even in it's spikey form should be more handy coupled with the option to still use the 30% shield block at will.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-07-10 at 02:15 AM.

  11. #111
    That's very interesting, I did some napkin math and it seems it would lead to a considerably lower damage intake (and higher dps). You could argue that it would be more spiky, but the higher the avoidance is, the lower the chance of getting dangerous spikes. Would be interesting to see this in a simulator. If only Theck would re-roll warrior...
    Last edited by szandos; 2013-07-10 at 09:29 AM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by szandos View Post
    That's very interesting, I did some napkin math and it seems it would lead to a considerably lower damage intake (and higher dps). You could argue that it would be more spiky, but the higher the avoidance is, the lower the chance of getting dangerous spikes. Would be interesting to see this in a simulator. If only Theck would re-roll warrior...
    Avoidance does not reduce the dangerousness of a spike, only the amount of spikes. Those spikes, which are there, will still hit like a truck. Only way against spikes is active mitigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    Avoidance does not reduce the dangerousness of a spike, only the amount of spikes. Those spikes, which are there, will still hit like a truck. Only way against spikes is active mitigation.
    You could argue you would have more active mitigation at your disposal with crit rage, 20 rage revenge & more revenges due to dodges/parries. At least you will have a lot of block and barriers to use, just weaker blocks (but then you have avoidance to back it up).

    EDIT: I have 37% avoidance while trying to avoid dodge/parry. I would like to see how much I would have if I was going for it instead! Think of all the revenge procs!
    Last edited by Clampy; 2013-07-10 at 01:20 PM.

  14. #114
    Clampy beat me to it: exactly my thoughts. I'd like to add that at least the Barriers aren't weaker aaaand *drum roll* please don't forget about our 2 piece bonus and the way it interacts with crit. You mentioned 350-450k SBar on heroic Horridon the other night, add a 30% heal to that (400k average -> 120k) that can crit. That's 2/3 of your hp bar covered in a single 60 rage AM, neat.

    For the revenge proccs: going from full stamina or mastery to full avoidance should net 1-1,5 more revenge proccs (out of 10) depending on your gear and it's itemisation. I've currently only 3 mastery/x pieces so i'm in an excellent starting spot. Makes me even wonder what i'll do with my bonus roll coins tonight After all we already have a decent initial position for revenge proccs from high strength on all of our gear, providing us with almost 30% avoidance before any avoidance rating from gear comes into play.

    So...

    a) mastery
    b) avoidance
    c) crit (i'd like to stop thinking about that but it's not totally off the table...)
    d) stamina

    And mix of those like full avoidance on gear, linked with full stamina gemming. Or going full mastery and using two stamina trinkets, etc - so many options, i like it.

  15. #115
    Yea I'll edit that to avoid confusion. I think I'll likely avoid crit to start with, just because getting 75% more stats from avoidance makes it too powerful to... avoid . Hit+Exp caps will still be top, but I might try something like;

    Hit = Exp > Parry > Dodge > Mastery
    Maybe switch to something like
    Hit = Exp > Mastery > Crit > Avoidance when I have some stuff on farm for damage/control (Also for synergy with the 2 set)

  16. #116
    I tried an Avoidance-SBar-Only-Prot-Warrior when progressinng in 10man normal MGV, HoF and TotES. It worked out quite well actually.

    You will use the lowest rage SBar possible. You focus on avoidance only (by that time it meant STR trinkets for parry conversion). An avoided hit will give you more time to gather rage and will not consume the current SBar. Additionally SBar is good against all sorts of damage.

    Block is still quite useful when you need to catch some special blockable attacks.

    I swapped to mastery/block after the SBar nerf.

    It may be possible to get away with SBar only in the next tier. For normal modes at least.
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-07-11 at 10:50 AM.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorker View Post
    I tried an Avoidance-SBar-Only-Prot-Warrior when progressinng in 10man normal MGV, HoF and TotES. It worked out quite well actually.

    You will use the lowest rage SBar possible. You focus on avoidance only (by that time it meant STR trinkets for parry conversion). An avoided hit will give you more time to gather rage and will not consume the current SBar. Additionally SBar is good against all sorts of damage.

    Block is still quite useful when you need to catch some special blockable attacks.

    I swapped to mastery/block after the SBar nerf.

    It may be possible to get away with SBar only in the next tier. For normal modes at least.
    I don't like the sound of that at all, and reckon we'll still end up preferring mastery because we want Shield Block up for Heavy Repercussions. Lots of critical strikes are great, and all, but not when Shield Slam hits more than twice as hard as anything else. The passive effect of Riposte, without stacking avoidance, will be enough to offset any perceived damage loss by the look of it.

    In short, fuck avoidance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Yea I'll edit that to avoid confusion. I think I'll likely avoid crit to start with, just because getting 75% more stats from avoidance makes it too powerful to... avoid . Hit+Exp caps will still be top, but I might try something like;

    Hit = Exp > Parry > Dodge > Mastery
    Maybe switch to something like
    Hit = Exp > Mastery > Crit > Avoidance when I have some stuff on farm for damage/control (Also for synergy with the 2 set)

    I'd edit that to say hit = exp > parry = dodge (since we have so much str) > mastery

  19. #119
    A barrier only build sounds terrible. I hope it doesn't come to that.

    On a side note, I'm hoping they change the 4 set. It sounds terrible. At the very minimum don't switch the 2 and 4 set.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    A barrier only build sounds terrible. I hope it doesn't come to that.

    On a side note, I'm hoping they change the 4 set. It sounds terrible. At the very minimum don't switch the 2 and 4 set.
    It's in line with the shitty 4p for pallies and the nerfed 4p for dks /:
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