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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    At the very minimum don't switch the 2 and 4 set.
    Ssssh! Na, don't worry to much about that for now. They only changed it on paladins due to it's overpowerness-potential, see Theck's blog.

    Stacking avoidance for the riposte bonus over mastery doesn't mean you couldn't continue to pop block for melee damage reduction in the future. Don't forget that both you and Eddy are already running in a super low mastery gear set... so nothing should change for you outside of getting several %crit down the road.

  2. #122
    The reason sbar was nerphed at the beginning of the expansion was because it was moving ahead of sblock. Blizzard saw a problem with this and intervened thus we got a sbar nerph. Unless blizzards philosophy has changed in the last 9 or so months I would expect to see sbar nerphed should it push sblock out of our rotation.

    There is a lot of confusing messages from blizzard regarding prot warriors. They want us to use sblock but have publically stated they are worried about us getting crit block capped. They introduced riposte but don't want us to take a avoidance -> crit -> sbar build as demonstrated by their previous nerphs. Outside of simply denying us mastery gear I am not sure where they plan to put the carrot to achieve their goal with prot warriors.

  3. #123
    I find it so funny that they are worried about Prot warrior block cap but Paladins will have 100% uptime on SotR next patch.

  4. #124
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    I find it so funny that they are worried about Prot warrior block cap but Paladins will have 100% uptime on SotR next patch.
    Paladins have been superior tanks to warriors since WotLK, and arguably before that.

    At this point, one can only assume it's by design.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Paladins have been superior tanks to warriors since WotLK, and arguably before that.

    At this point, one can only assume it's by design.


  6. #126
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    Best. Meme. Post. Ever.

  7. #127
    I was wondering, which is best: 20k health or 11% mastery on 5.4?

    For 10s, of course.

  8. #128
    11% mastery, no question asked. 20k health in a healthpool of 850-950k isn't noticeable at all.

    Ps: i tanked on both warrior and paladin during Cata a lot and while paladin had his advantages it was not like night and day, superior on every aspect (ie: no thunderclap on multiple targets, no reliable interrupt of the gcd for several months, etc). But currently i just stick to my warrior because i want to play on him, but i couldn't justify using him over a paladin except for personal preference.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-07-23 at 06:22 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    11% mastery, no question asked. 20k health in a healthpool of 850-950k isn't noticeable at all.

    Ps: i tanked on both warrior and paladin during Cata a lot and while paladin had his advantages it was not like night and day, superior on every aspect (ie: no thunderclap on multiple targets, no reliable interrupt of the gcd for several months, etc). But currently i just stick to my warrior because i want to play on him, but i couldn't justify using him over a paladin except for personal preference.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Ps: i tanked on both warrior and paladin during Cata a lot and while paladin had his advantages it was not like night and day, superior on every aspect (ie: no thunderclap on multiple targets, no reliable interrupt of the gcd for several months, etc). But currently i just stick to my warrior because i want to play on him, but i couldn't justify using him over a paladin except for personal preference.
    As a poster whose opinion I value, the difference between a warrior and paladin was dramatic in Cataclysm; particularly from Firelands. They were literally better in every single way that mattered, sometimes absurdly so. Espada touched on the reasons why previously, but I've honestly just reached the conclusion that the designers are simply bored of warriors.

    It sounds dramatic, but it's the only real explanation for the design flaws across the class.

  11. #131
    Hmm, are my memories that much washy? I had full combat table coverage on both IIRC - it was just noticeable easier to obtain on paladin (they had it with entry FL gear while we needed some DS pieces). My crux in this expansion is the damage dealt part which is totally out of control thanks to vengeance and scaling issues. I also happened to tank with a prot paladin partner back then when i was on my warrior and i never felt *that* inferior like nowadays tanking along a monk.

    Ps: we owned paladin all day long when it came to aoe situations

    @Gliff
    You could also add shattering throw, but how much is a skull banner worth after all?

    Ie using a t15hc fire mage profil with the common settings it'd be a 13k difference for a sole player over a 5 minutes patchwerk fight (probably assuming that you pop it perfectly for a strong combustion with two potions, proccs etc). Given that this is the strongest dps specc right now and benefits the most from crit and crit damage let's take an unoly DK - for them it's a 1.2k difference.

    Now what's the average gain, noticeable below <5k sounds more reasonable to me on average, times 18 people benefitting from it in your 25M situation that would be an 4-80k rdps gain. So if they design us (prot, arms AND fury) around that banner and it's unique addition - okay i could swallow that pill. But what's about a shaman's stormlash totem? Enhancer are currently the strongest melee specc by far and argueable the strongest burst specc overall with a huge gap to the the rest of the field, so honestly i don't think that's a real reason to hold us back. I'm with Zellviren, they seem to be just bored/uninspired.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-07-24 at 12:25 AM.

  12. #132
    we were great tanks in cata(i'd say on 90% of fights were were the second best behind dk's, until ds where druids got op), but our failing was the same as it was in wrath, unblockable big attacks had orders of magnitude more chance to kill us than any other tank. now that is fixed and in mop weve just had less damage, but believe me the damage issue is fixed
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  13. #133
    In most raiding guilds I seem to find that its almost always a Pally MT with a Warrior OT, I'm curious if this is gonna continue?

    I'm seeing such drastic differences of opinions on the changes to Riposte and our changes going into 5.4, I'm curious if its even worth continuing to gear the Warrior and not getting a Pally caught up or forcing myself to get comfortable on my Monk. :/

  14. #134
    Not sure why people are so negitive. Thunderclap buff, crit buff, after we reach mastery soft cap we will be reforging to parry / dodge meaning more crit, lots more rage generation.

    We have no issues with survivability yet its getting a buff. With the changes we are going to be swiming in rage. Big hits (that are blockable) we will easly be able critical block + barrier on a regular basis. If anything I think we are going to be overpowered on the damage input front with the 2pc and current changes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will back the above up with some numbers.

    Critical Block : 60% damage reduction
    2pc : 30% of blocked damage healed (78% damage reduction)
    30 rage shield barrier : 200k damage reduction

    With the numbers and the above set up for a big hit it would take around a 1 million hit before we take any damage. Considering that we will be sitting around 900K hp it would take around a 1.7 million hit to take us down to 20% hp. This is not taking in to consideration our damage reduction cooldowns such as shield wall. This is something we will be able to do on a regular basis say around ever 20-25 seconds.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    Not sure why people are so negitive. Thunderclap buff, crit buff, after we reach mastery soft cap we will be reforging to parry / dodge meaning more crit, lots more rage generation.

    We have no issues with survivability yet its getting a buff. With the changes we are going to be swiming in rage. Big hits (that are blockable) we will easly be able critical block + barrier on a regular basis. If anything I think we are going to be overpowered on the damage input front with the 2pc and current changes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will back the above up with some numbers.

    Critical Block : 60% damage reduction
    2pc : 30% of blocked damage healed (78% damage reduction)
    30 rage shield barrier : 200k damage reduction

    With the numbers and the above set up for a big hit it would take around a 1 million hit before we take any damage. Considering that we will be sitting around 900K hp it would take around a 1.7 million hit to take us down to 20% hp. This is not taking in to consideration our damage reduction cooldowns such as shield wall. This is something we will be able to do on a regular basis say around ever 20-25 seconds.
    We'd be nerfed into the ground if that did come to fruition. :/

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    Not sure why people are so negitive. Thunderclap buff, crit buff, after we reach mastery soft cap we will be reforging to parry / dodge meaning more crit, lots more rage generation.

    We have no issues with survivability yet its getting a buff. With the changes we are going to be swiming in rage. Big hits (that are blockable) we will easly be able critical block + barrier on a regular basis. If anything I think we are going to be overpowered on the damage input front with the 2pc and current changes.
    Lets see if i can summarize some of the negativity...

    Doesn't matter if tclap does a million damage, still to long cd, to short range, and only works on ground. Revenge/cleave being limited for 2 targets and having 0 yard range doesn't help our aoe.
    The crit buff is no where near enough to close the gap.
    Reading GC's tweets he will nerf our mastery before we reach crit block cap.
    Even if he doesn't nerf it, we'll have to choose between being shit on progression damage wise or capping mastery, no other tanks has to make that choice, while still capping.
    And in that choice is more clusterfuck, opt for riposte and dps, it forces you away from shieldblock and inturn gut your dps, ohh the sweet irony.
    It's good that we're low on damage intake but compared to raid heal/selfheals its still pretty weak in comparision.
    We have several high profile warrior tanks thats considering rerolling for progression, thats how weak we are to our counterparts.

    Now ontop of that buffs to other classes or not enough nerfs and you tell me, why shouldn't we be negative ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    With the numbers and the above set up for a big hit it would take around a 1 million hit before we take any damage. Considering that we will be sitting around 900K hp it would take around a 1.7 million hit to take us down to 20% hp. This is not taking in to consideration our damage reduction cooldowns such as shield wall. This is something we will be able to do on a regular basis say around ever 20-25 seconds.
    Yeh, 100% uptime on sotr and EB makes that feel very irrelevant...
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-07-24 at 09:29 AM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian23 View Post
    We'd be nerfed into the ground if that did come to fruition. :/
    Which won't happen, Santa pointed out why.

    We're basically going to cap mastery and take less damage but do shit dps, or do okay DPS and then be forced to spend alot of rage on barrier. In the end they're trying to improve our DPS but they're doing it in a way that reduces the value of Mastery for us. To be more precise it makes Dodge/Parry become more valuable, thus making Mastery relatively "worse".

    Now i'm actually not negative about the changes (more curious if anything) but I do agree that if paladins get a 100% up time on SOTR and nothing changes to the current state of their DPS and monks the most likely tank combo you'll see in progression is; Prot Paladin & Monk.

    So ye, I can understand why some people jump on the negativity bandwagon, if I was in a more progression orrientated guild i'd most likely be on that wagon aswell as a Prot warrior is just something that needs carrying on the dps department (and with those 100% uptimes they're better at mitigating aswell).

    So what we'd have going for us are Mobility & Utility and those are even debatable.

    On the plus side, I do still enjoy playing a Prot warrior and unless they really make it impossible for me to tank something I'll stick with it
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    We have no issues with survivability yet its getting a buff. With the changes we are going to be swiming in rage. Big hits (that are blockable) we will easly be able critical block + barrier on a regular basis. If anything I think we are going to be overpowered on the damage input front with the 2pc and current changes.
    For that strength on the defensive side you trade in 1/4 additional damage on the offensive side (more revenge proccs, less Ultimatum proccs, slightly less enrage uptime)... and that's why we're worried. Neither druids, paladin nor monk have the odd feeling that they'd give something up when they gear for dps while we'll end up eating verifiable more damage from using another 20k avoidance rating instead of mastery to crit block cap, or heck even 20k crit rating.

    Add that the 2 piece scales with crit which we get at a greatly decreased rate when we opt for mastery. It looks like we get pulled in two opposite ways. Either we withstand the increased damage taken part and deal competetive dps (which is undenieable important in both raid sizes) or we get back in our turtle shell with double defensive trinkets and deal 50% less damage than our co-tank.

    I really hate being that negative about everything but currently we're dead* last and all those small and medium bandaids aren't enough to help us getting in a fair environment again. They'd need to add another 10-15% base damage to all of our abilities and remove the HR glyph, decrease thunderclaps cooldown by 1.5 seconds (picking up stuff spawning in short intervals is really annoying) and maybe even allow us (and DKs for that matter) to scale of any offensive secondary stat. Arguing about too much changes that deep into the expansion are finally off the table when frost mages get a whole new mastery.

    * just play around with raidbots, you don't have to look at the top 100 logs or the top 95 percentile. Just use all parses, 90 percentile and a timespan of three months: in 25M = Warrior 191k and monk 322k; in 10M 165k vs 259k - that's way over 50% difference.

    Everyone must live with a difference given skill/assignment/diversity, but it should be in a reasonable range and not at the cost of our prime duty, staying alive.

  19. #139
    Remember that those Raidbot prot warriors probably all used Execute for the lolz.
    So our dps is probably even worse. Well...unless we are intended to spam Execute past 20% boss health and ignore block/barrier completly.
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by zorker View Post
    Remember that those Raidbot prot warriors probably all used Execute for the lolz.
    Not sure howmuch more DPS we do by execute spamming tbh as it does mean heavey rep is not beeing used. It's likely an increase (I know I do it on some fights/situations) but I honestly doubt it'll make a giant impact on our DPS over a whole fight or anything like that
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

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