[5.4] Protection Warrior

[Deleted]

On the frontpage today, something about prot warrior slam... Error or am I a bad reader?

Ye, think it was datamined a while ago aswell... I'm not sure why they're adding it (if they even are) maybe as a rage dump when you're not tanking or something.... Honestly Haven't got a clue what they're thinking there.

[Deleted]

I have some dodge trinkets on PTR. They effect Riposte instantly once they proc.

Has someone tested STR trinkets? Do STR procs have any effect on Riposte?

[Ashenia]

STR proc trinket didn't affect Riposte at all, only increase dodge/parry ratings did (to nice amounts). About slam it was said either in this thread or main protection thread that we won't get slam as protection - dunno why they keep putting that in.

As far as we can see there is no changes since last bosses been tested. I did only Siegecrafter and my damage compared to Paladin was pretty good, but when it comes to different bosses when you are unable to dodge/parry (Immerseus - if you r not soloing it and few others) it's not as fun as it should be. I tried few times to get an answer from any blues if they plan something else or keep it like it is, no answer. We shall wait and see I think, specially as there is no nerfs to other tanks (Pala/Monk).

[Nillo]

Maybe you missed the part where:
The green text stuff is data mined and often misinterpreted.
It still says that slam's only for arms spec.

[Deleted]

Think the mechanics of it work pretty well, would be nice to see STR count as well but on PTR was doing a fairly consistent 180k DPS in 10 man normal which can't be sniffed at

[Ashenia]

True, damage we do on PTR is quite decent compared with live, but I'm still not sure how they want to deal with casters etc to keep it constant when we tank them or fairly high. I saw two paladins (their mains) testing warriors and gearing either full mastery or full crit. Did anyone tested lately full crit chars? I did only on 1st PTR boss but with shitty old PTR char (T14, silly items even with ilvl risen) and it was BAD (altho I did UI in like 7min). Rest of bosses I did full mastery and Primodius trinket - was pretty decent damage and surv.

I don't know why but I would love to see Spell Reflect granting us 25-40% magic reduction on top of it to make it useful in raids.

[Deleted]

I don't want any more defensive tools, we need more power on the offensive department. Sporting 180k sounds okayish but please don't forget that all monk/pala/druid also receive additional secondary stats further widen the gap to our 5.3 self. Paladins won't stop at 40% haste, they'll sit at 55-60% at the end of this expansion. And monk will crit 7/10 instead of 5/10 times with their hulk- err kegsmash. What probably will help us is that we can also wear damage contributing trinkets next tier and still have enough mastery to reach our crit-block-goal.

What's the idea behind a pure crit warrior? More enrage uptime or just plain more damage? What's with the internal cooldown on enrage, anyone figured out if crits with dev/SS also trigger that or is it only 3 seconds on critical blocks? Please don't forget between all those big, yellow numbers that those other tanks don't get away with gearing for more damage because they're plain op but because they get more survivability from doing so. If we could crit all the time, triggering enrage nonstop and gain so much rage that we could keep barrier for every melee swing and all magic flying around that would be awesome for both survivability and overall damage dealt, but we'd still lose the HR glyph damage on SS and hitting SB without a truckload of mastery to comfort it doesn't sound to appealing to me (wasn't i on the other end of that discussion only a few pages back? ).

Ps: gemming full avoidance would add about 5% crit via Riposte while gemming full crit would add 10%

[Deleted]

I could see that with spell reflect being pretty OP @ Ysearia but something like a 20% damage reduction off the next 3 spells or so might be nice although probably too much of a paradigm shift for PvP

I've tried reforging into crit as much as I can on PTR and I must say it works out pretty nicely, I do have a feeling that probably avoidance on gear will be the way to go for progress although I'll wait til further PTR patches before I start doing number crunching and really working it out
It also depends on how tight the enrages are on 5.4 encounters, if they are particularly tight then reforging crit will net you a really significant DPS gain and thus making enrages a lot easier.. a rough guestimate on a fight you would be doing 160k DPS in avoidance reforges, if you went into crit you would be looking at around 200k

The idea behind pure crit is on getting ultimatum to proc as much as you can, as its now off shield slam crits. Also and the major reason I feel is that the 2 set Shield Heal bonus can crit and when it does it basically means if you crit block and crit heal, it reduces a melee swing down to 4% of its initial damage provided you survive the hit
Also I would assume the tanking trinket that converts damage you deal into ~3% healing will also be able to crit, thus making any damage you deal extremely potent for self healing as well as allowing the trinket to crit on you for 6% of your health
Or if you look at it another way, if you crit for double damage and then crit heal that.. you are looking at a fair bit of self healing

EG) Ra-den if I'm doing 400k DPS in MT gear and 3% of that is turned into life leech, multiplied by around 1.4 (conservative) for your crit chance in 5.4 + increased healing taken buffs, you are looking at around 16200 HPS on yourself from that trinket alone

Given that its a more or less instant heal 0.01-0.09 second delay you are talking about reducing a boss doing 160k DPS to the tank by 16200, so around a 10% damage reduction from a trinket


On top of this you have the set bonus, its a relatively low chance in low crit gear but if you have a nice combo of crit + mastery;

Best case scenario;

500k Melee swing
300k is crit blocked and 200k is unblocked
You heal for 30% of that 300k which is 90k
This brings the melee swing down to 110k
Assuming however you crit heal that 90k, you have done 180k healing
Reducing that melee swing down to 20k

So provided you crit block and crit heal you are looking at some ridiculous levels of reduction, 500k >> 20k

Some other situations might be, assume you don't crit block and don't crit heal;

500k Swing
150k is blocked, 350k is unblocked
30% of 150k is 45k
Taking that 350k hit down to 305k in a worse case scenario


Crit block but no crit heal;

500k > 110k


Normal block but crit heal;

500k >> 260k


Obviously I think from this set bonus alone you will see people trending towards trying to gear for the first scenario as much as possible as frankly that level of self healing is utterly insane and the amount of effective damage reduction it provides is also equally insane

[Ashenia]

I don't want any more defensive tools, we need more power on the offensive department. Sporting 180k sounds okayish but please don't forget that all monk/pala/druid also receive additional secondary stats further widen the gap to our 5.3 self. Paladins won't stop at 40% haste, they'll sit at 55-60% at the end of this expansion. And monk will crit 7/10 instead of 5/10 times with their hulk- err kegsmash. What probably will help us is that we can also wear damage contributing trinkets next tier and still have enough mastery to reach our crit-block-goal.

What's the idea behind a pure crit warrior? More enrage uptime or just plain more damage? What's with the internal cooldown on enrage, anyone figured out if crits with dev/SS also trigger that or is it only 3 seconds on critical blocks? Please don't forget between all those big, yellow numbers that those other tanks don't get away with gearing for more damage because they're plain op but because they get more survivability from doing so. If we could crit all the time, triggering enrage nonstop and gain so much rage that we could keep barrier for every melee swing and all magic flying around that would be awesome for both survivability and overall damage dealt, but we'd still lose the HR glyph damage on SS and hitting SB without a truckload of mastery to comfort it doesn't sound to appealing to me (wasn't i on the other end of that discussion only a few pages back? ).

Ps: gemming full avoidance would add about 5% crit via Riposte while gemming full crit would add 10%

That's the biggest issue if we gem/reforge only for Crit, we won't get much survivability out of it. If it stays as it is and I didn't do many mistakes then this combo would hurt us more then help us (more damage with way more damage taken). At this point I definitely gonna agree on your statement about more offensive power is needed (altho I would love to see our CD start working in raids, because CD's are another strong points of paladins which we highly lack) but from latest patch notes Blizzard thinks differently I think.

What actually would help? Just plain more damage to our abilities Rev, Dev, bit more Slam? Bigger rating conversion for Riposte? I don't really like to go crit heavy build but would like to be granted with something for actually playing a tank.

@Just read Eddy post
How far did you went into Crit? Did you balance Mastery/Crit etc? Because what you wrote seems interesting but how far you have to go to make it valid and such really insane. I would like I said more like try first Crit Block then Crit and see if that's enough to push to high numbers. This monday maybe I will try going hard Crit/Mastery build, will see..

About SReflect, probably would have to be low % but still, more useful then it is now in raids.

[Deleted]

@Eddy
I already forgot about Ultimatum because it's just such a boring procc right now, maybe this will really change with three times the damage of an auto attack instead of 1,5 times.

Wouldn't be to hyped about the 2 piece bonus just yet, they can still reduce the numbers in half or remove the critical part.

Ra-Den doesn't seem to be a good mathmatical example for that trinket, regulary you won't get both high tank damage and high raid damage resulting in super high vengeance (which will be capped anyway, making at least an impact on 10M raiding), thus no 10% damage reduce but rather 3-3.5% depending on your actual crit chance.

You probably won't get both *reliable* crit blocks and critical heals from the setbonus, it's either the first or the latter (for 4/5 cases) given we only have x secondary ratings to play with.

What actually would help? Just plain more damage to our abilities Rev, Dev, bit more Slam? Bigger rating conversion for Riposte? I don't really like to go crit heavy build but would like to be granted with something for actually playing a tank.

Permanent Riposte which also works for mastery could be great as a bandaid until next expansion.

[Deleted]

Well crit block is already fairly high and thats even from a 25m stam stacking perspective
I imagine for mastery/ crit there will be a crossover point where one overtakes the other and an optimal ratio to keep them to

My crit wasn't that high on PTR, only around 25% or so in combat but it worked nicely

[Deleted]

Why would you gem for crit if that would turn your mastery down. You showed that a crit block is way more powerful that a normal block with a crit heal. Don't get all cranky about that crit stuff.

You sound like a dps that makes my ears bleed.

[Pua]

Why would you gem for crit if that would turn your mastery down. You showed that a crit block is way more powerful that a normal block with a crit heal. Don't get all cranky about that crit stuff.

You sound like a dps that makes my ears bleed.

I think the idea is that it's critical strike versus avoidance, assuming the Critical Block mastery cap. Mastery to 19k ish is still the way to go (after hit/expertise caps), then it's a question of whether you prioritise critical strike or avoidance.

For me, avoidance still wins. Unless it's simulated out that the two-piece makes critical strike the better option defensively, I'm just not going to sacrifice survival for more damage.

[Deleted]

Why would you gem for crit if that would turn your mastery down. You showed that a crit block is way more powerful that a normal block with a crit heal. Don't get all cranky about that crit stuff.

You sound like a dps that makes my ears bleed.

There will be a crossover point, will need to model it to work out where it is exactly, however;

I am a DPS, a rather good one. Given how powerful Tank DPS is, its a balancing act between being able to bring the optimal amount of DPS while not over-straining the healers
Being able to survive while maximizing your DPS is one of the factors which separates good tanks from bad tanks these days

If you are able to survive but bring terrible DPS you are still gimping your raid by forcing them to bring an extra DPS class
Its great being able to survive stuff and our primary mandate but given that I am topping, if not very near the top, DPS is an extremely important factor
In 25HC the extra DPS I will tend to bring does help out with enrages and killing stuff quickly before the healers get overburdened by that damage and I would say its been a fairly large benefit this tier over bringing a tank sitting on say, 130k DPS for most fights

Going into the next tier I am sure there will be a few tight enrage fights that will benefit enormously from high tank DPS, thinking siegecrafter HC and I will continue to go whatever is optimal for each fight, I have a feeling that for the majority of them the raid will benefit far more from my extra 100k DPS killing an add etc than me taking 2-10% less damage over a fight

There's no reason to get snobby about it, thats just how the game is right now
There is a lot of merit to pushing the most out of your class in terms of DPS and survivability because both are important in the current raiding model, one without the other points to just playing suboptimally and lacking either is pretty bad

[Deleted]

For me, avoidance still wins. Unless it's simulated out that the two-piece makes critical strike the better option defensively, I'm just not going to sacrifice survival for more damage.

The problem is that avoidance reduces the amount of blocks meaning it devalues mastery. Crit on the other hand works with mastery, not against.

[Deleted]

Avoidance also increases the chance on a intervene-riposte uptime and decreases the cooldown on revenge while actively tanking. Sadly with dev also proccing enrage it's not as important/interesting as it used to be but still something we shouldn't forget entirely.

Being able to survive while maximizing your DPS is one of the factors which separates good tanks from bad tanks these days

Easy solution: just ate all debuffs (Talon Rake, Decap, Static Wound, etc) and have your monk do the rest ^.^ Finding the balance between staying alive without your healers yelling at you all the time over vent and still dealing a decent amount of damage is most def. part of our newest job assignment.

Ps: i really hope "Brewmaster: Keg Smash damage increased by 23%." is just a tooltip fix ~

[Deleted]

Pretty sure it must be tbh =s

[Deleted]

Avoidance? Riposte or not, not gonna touch with a stick. I'm probably gonna be forced to get some because we are still the only (/idiots/) plate users that can't get anything out of haste, and the damn thing seems to be everywhere (see legendary cloak, see the loot from 13 bosses. Can't get a full set free of haste without going heavy onto avoidance). I'm only already putting a shitload of stats on reducing melee swings to a ridicule level (mastery and 2pc), and I have enough avoidance via str to keep whatever riposte I will have.80

I might as well not even bother with capping mastery. Depends on itemization, hope to do it, but... Not like we aren't solid enough at 18k-19k mast.

[Freese]

Is anyone going to be using the crit trinket from Primordius next patch?

[Deleted]

I would honestly have said use Gaze instead of it, even in 10 man the vengeance is at the level where crit is vastly outweighing STR. Afaik, Gaze will have a much higher crit overall compared to the Primordius one