[5.4] Protection Warrior

[Khorm]

a) Threat being an important part of the two encounters I mentioned isn't a personal opinion, it's a fact.
b) I killed both of them during their patch cycle.
c) It makes no difference to the point made when I killed them.

Nice try, sweetie.

Zellviren defeated Malygos 25m 12th June 2009
Ulduar released 14th April 2009

Zellviren defeated all of The Keepers of Ulduar on the 23rd may 2010
ToC/ToGC released 4th August 2009
ICC released December 8th 2009.

So in reality Zellviren, you did not kill either of those fights in their patch cycle and it does make a very large difference to when you killed them. I looked at your cataclysm achievements where you said you did your progression raiding and they don't match up either.

[Pua]

Zellviren defeated Malygos 25m 12th June 2009
Ulduar released 14th April 2009

Zellviren defeated all of The Keepers of Ulduar on the 23rd may 2010
ToC/ToGC released 4th August 2009
ICC released December 8th 2009.

So in reality Zellviren, you did not kill either of those fights in their patch cycle and it does make a very large difference to when you killed them. I looked at your cataclysm achievements where you said you did your progression raiding and they don't match up either.

The Spellweaver's Downfall (10): 24/3/2009
Staying Buffed all Winter (10): 08/06/2009

So in reality, Khorm, I killed both of those fights in their patch cycle and it would only make a difference to the point I made about threat mechanics if the power sparks or Starlight didn't exist in their 10-player versions. They did.

The funny thing is that this only matters to you. It matters to you because you think that I must be in a server leading guild to pass an opinion on anything, and you think this way because you can't disagree with me logically so need to try and avoid bothering to engage with my point at all. You're so sweet, and sad.

Your armoury policing is another tragic example of someone who gets rumbled, has no point to make whatsoever, and starts a pissing contest instead because they're so impoverished of ego that they can't just say:

"I was wrong, you made a good point".

It's pathetic. You're pathetic. And the saddest part is that I already know your response is going to be "LOL10MAN" because anything else would force you to deal with the point I made - and you can't.

Back to the circus, flea.

Infracted

[Deleted]

The Spellweaver's Downfall (10): 24/3/2009
Staying Buffed all Winter (10): 08/06/2009

So in reality, Khorm, I killed both of those fights in their patch cycle and it would only make a difference to the point I made about threat mechanics if the power sparks or Starlight didn't exist in their 10-player versions. They did.

The funny thing is that this only matters to you. It matters to you because you think that I must be in a server leading guild to pass an opinion on anything, and you think this way because you can't disagree with me logically so need to try and avoid bothering to engage with my point at all. You're so sweet, and sad.

Your armoury policing is another tragic example of someone who gets rumbled, has no point to make whatsoever, and starts a pissing contest instead because they're so impoverished of ego that they can't just say:

"I was wrong, you made a good point".

It's pathetic. You're pathetic. And the saddest part is that I already know your response is going to be "LOL10MAN" because anything else would force you to deal with the point I made - and you can't.

Back to the circus, flea.

there's one rather obvious point to me here. You said it yourself - you're not / were not in a server first guild. As such your comment that "maintaining threat was difficult" must be taken with a grain of salt. For myself part of what makes me miss playing a rogue, which I did back then, is that it was challenging for me despite being a very simple playstyle (the spec I played at least) but that was because I sucked horribly (I think I 'sucked' more then than you 'did' when you did your 'progress raidding) and I think that's what makes you look back at that kind of tanking wishing it back. It was fun and challenging not because it actually was challenging to those who could actually do it - but it was to you because you frankly weren't a super amazing player. (no offense).

Stop the bickering

[Khorm]

The Spellweaver's Downfall (10): 24/3/2009
Staying Buffed all Winter (10): 08/06/2009

So in reality, Khorm, I killed both of those fights in their patch cycle and it would only make a difference to the point I made about threat mechanics if the power sparks or Starlight didn't exist in their 10-player versions. They did.

Infracted

Harder for 25mans. Better comps, more buffs, more DPS. I did it with no problem and I've never heard tanks swapping stories on how hard Malygos or Hodir were.

[Pua]

there's one rather obvious point to me here. You said it yourself - you're not / were not in a server first guild. As such your comment that "maintaining threat was difficult" must be taken with a grain of salt. For myself part of what makes me miss playing a rogue, which I did back then, is that it was challenging for me despite being a very simple playstyle (the spec I played at least) but that was because I sucked horribly (I think I 'sucked' more then than you 'did' when you did your 'progress raidding) and I think that's what makes you look back at that kind of tanking wishing it back. It was fun and challenging not because it actually was challenging to those who could actually do it - but it was to you because you frankly weren't a super amazing player. (no offense).

Stop the bickering

Judging someone you've never seen play, as well as utterly ignoring the context of a post I made very clear, makes you appear more than a little simple. I don't recall saying threat was difficult, but here you are saying that I did because it's not logical to argue with the point I'm making and that causes you anxiety. I haven't judged anyone at any stage, because that would be stupid; there are some great players in very poor guilds and some very poor players in great guilds.

But I'll admit, it's classy to see someone dismiss an opinion that differs from theirs by suggesting the person holding it must have just been a bad player.

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

For what it's worth, even back then, I was considered one of the most competent Protection warriors on Kilrogg. Since the launch of Cataclysm I've ranked multiple times on every major tier I've bothered to tank in, and that's without scumbagging (you know my view on that) so you're not talking to a bad player. The reason I didn't do 25-man progression was because I played with a smaller group of friends that I wouldn't have changed for the world. Hell, I was ranking consistently during Throne of Thunder which was the last tier I bothered to raid in.

Harder for 25mans. Better comps, more buffs, more DPS. I did it with no problem and I've never heard tanks swapping stories on how hard Malygos or Hodir were.

Yep, you act as predicted. Ignore the point being made and cry about "25MANLOL". You're a gem, you really are. Additionally, nobody said Malygos or Hodir were difficult; what I did say was that there were mechanics that made threat a meaningful part of the encounter because they inflated DPS beyond normal boundaries. Perhaps your threat problems were dealt with by more hunters or rogues transferring it to you, a comfort blanket I didn't have.

If you're going to continue this debate about the merits of threat and why it was fun, do so while discussing the point and keeping an eye on the context of the conversation. If all you can do is spout a dull and mindless diatribe about who I am or what I tanked, you're cordially invited to button it. I dislike the idea of shedding even more IQ points on your asinine and predictable commentary.

Shop smart. Shop S Mart.

[Gliff]

J


Additionally, nobody said Malygos or Hodir were difficult;

Not to butt into this drama, but you did use those 2 bosses as examples for when threat was difficult back when threat was the only tank mechanic.


Listen, I understand that you enjoyed the style back in the old days, but I think the vast vast majority of tanks would agree that tanking is much more difficult on a fight to fight basis now then it was back then. Even if you play as defensive as possible (like I do pretty much 90% of the time on a farm) and don't scumbag at all, tanking is still more difficult today then it has ever been. I personally think you exaggerate how hard threat was as a mechanic in Wrath. As Khorm said, I never hear oldschool tanks talk about threat as a difficult mechanic in Wrath. Count me as one that does not.

Honestly, this argument is pointless though. Next expansion Vengeance will only effect defensive abilities and tank DPS will be based 100% on all the things that effect DPSers DPS, rather then your vengeance.

Blizzard has made it clear they do not view threat as a "fun" mechanic. You can disagree and quit (which you have) or you can adjust. It's 100% up to you. I have already heard some people who started tanking in MoP because of the "OMG HUGE NUMBERZZZZ" appeal say they are going back to DPS in MoP because of this.

For refrence this is how I label each expansion as far as what Blizzard wanted the tanking mechanic to be:

Vanilla: Threat
BC: Threat
Wrath: Threat (Nothing at the end)
Cata: Nothing (Unless you played a DK in which case it was AM)
MoP: They wanted it to be about AM and survivability but it turned into DPS
WoD: Survivability

[Deleted]

Cata was probably the worst when it came to tanking, for warriors at least, Heroic firelands gear was just enough as I remember to get block capped. After that it was just an exercise in pressing CDs for the big bad spell or having CDs rolling, both of which are not complicated endeavors.

[Sevyvia]

But I'll admit, it's classy to see someone dismiss an opinion that differs from theirs by suggesting the person holding it must have just been a bad player.

Since I was actually in a raiding guild of yours briefly when you were on Argent Dawn, I can confirm that it's not just a suggestion. You're not terrible, but you need to dial down the talk (A LOT) and do more of the walk.

[Deleted]

Been warrior tank since TBC and singletarget threat has never been a problem for us.

[Deleted]

I can see this on the same slippery slope so I'm just gonna say it now, please keep it civil guys

[Pua]

Since I was actually in a raiding guild of yours briefly when you were on Argent Dawn, I can confirm that it's not just a suggestion. You're not terrible, but you need to dial down the talk (A LOT) and do more of the walk.

The Rock puts this best.

I can see this on the same slippery slope so I'm just gonna say it now, please keep it civil guys

As you'll have noticed above, Eddy, I've already been infracted for this; and why?

Because I refuse to let Internet bully-boys try and downplay an opinion they can't logically argue with. You'll note my tone to certain people is very different because (as Gliff does above) they explain why they view things a certain way, and that they disagree with me. I'm unquestionably cool with that. What I'm not cool with is when kids try and dismiss a valid view by talking about raid achievements that have nothing to do with the topic.

If that makes me come across as uncivil, my apologies are extended to the moderators and posters who wish the conversation to remain so.

As far as I'm concerned, however, trolls can expect to be rounded on and spat at. It's what they deserve.

[idefiler6]

I don't know why it is so hard to just drop it. Do you always have to have the last word?

[Deleted]

I think this is the first time this thread is on the verge of becoming complete shit due to some internet superhero acting holier than thou. My god, let it go.

[Pua]

I think this is the first time this thread is on the verge of becoming complete shit due to some internet superhero acting holier than thou. My god, let it go.

So I shouldn't be allowed to defend my own opinion?

When did I project that requirement on anyone else?

And apparently I'm being holier than thou.

Stealthy.

[Deleted]

Defending your opinion isn't my issue. You just manage to do it in a manner that appears to piss people off, perhaps its because you're pretentious and you always have to get the last word in, even if you are wrong. Then again, what do I know I just have to read your crap, but Ill stop now before you bring me down to your level by dodging arguments and hopefully let this thread get back on track.

[Pua]

Defending your opinion isn't my issue. You just manage to do it in a manner that appears to piss people off, perhaps its because you're pretentious and you always have to get the last word in, even if you are wrong. Then again, what do I know I just have to read your crap.

Nobody has managed to prove me wrong yet, and I'm comfortable admitting it when it happens.

But you're right about one thing; I'm pissing people off, and I don't particularly want to.

Your wish is my command - I'm out.

[Gliff]

.......Sooooooo...... Did anyone see the game at Dodger Stadium yesterday?

[Khorm]

Honestly, this argument is pointless though. Next expansion Vengeance will only effect defensive abilities and tank DPS will be based 100% on all the things that effect DPSers DPS, rather then your vengeance.

Exactly Gliff and it is something I posted a few pages back. For tanks high DPS = high survivability because it means you are doing your rotation right and giving yourself the resources that your class needs to use your AM. With vengeance this was harder to tell unless you went into logs and saw their ability usage. Now if you see a Tanks DPS lower than it should be you know he is costing your raid in DPS and survivability.

[Nillo]

Nobody has managed to prove me wrong yet, and I'm comfortable admitting it when it happens.

How can one prove an opinion to be wrong? It's just not doable because it's an opinion.
But maybe the fact that pretty much no one seems to agree with your here might give you a hint how people feel about your opinion that pre-cata tanking was oh so amazing.

[Promdates]

.......Sooooooo...... Did anyone see the game at Dodger Stadium yesterday?

The hockey game was yesterday? Fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu. Who won?